Republic of Ireland V Portugal - Thurs, 11th November 2021 - 2022 World Cup Qualifier

[pineapple stu]

I think the Liechtenstein game was a freak as well - 40 shots and no goals - whereas we got what we deserved against Luxembourg. That's a big difference.

Really until last month Kenny deserved the criticism he was getting, while I think most acknowledged how bad the squad was. The performance in Portugal was decent (but if they'd scored the penalty it was a different game), but then at home v Serbia and Azerbaijan was poor both times and we were blessed to get two draws.

Last month then was solid stuff against two awful sides who pretty much helped us score. And then yesterday we're still debating but it certainly wasn't bad.

So it's an improvement, and if we can win on Sunday against a Luxembourg side who'll be well up for the game themselves, then all the better.

Btw, don't let the BOOMSHAKALAKAs win! We need more sensible posters here, not less

[Razors left peg]

You completely missed the point.

No buddy I didnt.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

No buddy I didnt.

If you take away the 5-1 against Denmark and a few other results, Martin O'Neill should have been kept on as manager.

[Razors left peg]

I think the Liechtenstein game was a freak as well - 40 shots and no goals - whereas we got what we deserved against Luxembourg. That's a big difference.

Really until last month Kenny deserved the criticism he was getting, while I think most acknowledged how bad the squad was. The performance in Portugal was decent (but if they'd scored the penalty it was a different game), but then at home v Serbia and Azerbaijan was poor both times and we were blessed to get two draws.

Last month then was solid stuff against two awful sides who pretty much helped us score. And then yesterday we're still debating but it certainly wasn't bad.

So it's an improvement, and if we can win on Sunday against a Luxembourg side who'll be well up for the game themselves, then all the better.

Btw, don't let the BOOMSHAKALAKAs win! We need more sensible posters here, not less

Maybe the Liechenstein game wasnt the greatest example I could have used but stupid results happen and I think the Luxembourg game has some mitigating factors like I said.

Yeah it could have been different if Portugal had scored their pen, but the flip side is that it could have been different if we had taken our chances or got a pen that should have been given.

We were at at all time low at the beginning of this campaign, but it had being coming for years. In the latter days of O'Neill and under McCarthy we barely every registered a shot on goal. We would have 30% possession at home to the likes of Georgia with an ageing squad. Now for the 1st time in a long time there is a sense of optimism around the squad. We were supposed to believe from the Jason McAteers of the world that the players wouldnt play for Kenny because they didnt know him. Thats all put to bed now. You can see the players are busting a gut for him and are trying to implement how he wants us to play, and we have such a young squad now too.

I just think the overhaul he is doing takes time and there are clear and obvious signs that its starting to pay dividends. We have no right to beat anyone, the minnows of 20 years ago are not as bad as they were and we have to accept we are not as good as we were. Could you imagine us having the captain of one of the biggest clubs in the world bossing our midfield now. We used to take that sort of thing for granted. Robbie Keane used to take abuse cos supposedly only scored against weaker teams. We'd kill to have someone like Robbie now. If you listened to Brady last night you would think we have a team of Champions League winners.

[Razors left peg]

If you take away the 5-1 against Denmark and a few other results, Martin O'Neill should have been kept on as manager.

Jeez you're great craic.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Jeez you're great craic.

You have to admit you and others defense of Kenny is ridiculous. He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had. Yet people like you are heavily criticising previous managers who actually qualified us for tournaments and treating Kenny like he's the Irish Guardiola! It would be funny only this madness is driving us back years.

[geysir]

No, there's Pineapple Stu saying that maybe we shouldn't get carried away by a 0-0 draw against a team playing within itself and resting half their starting 11, against whom we looked like not scoring if the game continued until next Tuesday. For that, he seems to have been cast in the role of Peig.

Luxembourg is key. Win there and we finish third, and if we could be accused for making hard work of it at least the trajectory is good after a bad start. Lose or draw, and the debate about whether we keep Kenny on or not has teeth.

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

[pineapple stu]

Christ geysir - you've a fierce habit of thinking an arrogant verbose posting style somehow accentuates your point, do you know that?

Luxembourg are not a decent side and are not in good form. Their only wins this year have been home and away against Azerbaijan (who are wojus) and in Lansdowne. A draw against Qatar and Azerbaijan, and eight defeats, and that's their past 12 months.

To say it's the sort of game that "for decades we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing" is nonsense. They're around 100th in the world. We've had some of those teams make it difficult for us over the years - they're usually pro footballers after all - but we were rarely ever in danger of losing to them, and indeed rarely give up results to them. When we do, they're really bad, one-off, and usually away from home. Draws in Georgia and Liechtenstein top the list. Mick's home draw against Iceland. Stan in Cyprus. All stronger teams than Luxembourg though. Stuff from the Giles era is of no relevance now really.

It's entirely right to criticise that result as one of our worst ever (and it was followed up shortly after by an equally abject display against Azerbaijan), and there is validity in saying that while a draw against a defensive/disinterested Portugal team whose keeper barely broke a sweat is still a decent result, it is of more interest to see if we can actually score and beat a weak team who at least have a reason to be up for this clash.

[TonyD]

You have to admit you and others defense of Kenny is ridiculous. He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had. Yet people like you are heavily criticising previous managers who actually qualified us for tournaments and treating Kenny like he's the Irish Guardiola! It would be funny only this madness is driving us back years.

Horse manure. Not one of Kenny defenders has said he’s Guardiola, or anything like it. The reality is he took over a squad that needed overhauling, that lacked the quality of previous years and where the young players he is introducing need time, as does he. Things are definitely improving, only the wilfully obstinate won’t admit that.

[TonyD]

Maybe the Liechenstein game wasnt the greatest example I could have used but stupid results happen and I think the Luxembourg game has some mitigating factors like I said.

Yeah it could have been different if Portugal had scored their pen, but the flip side is that it could have been different if we had taken our chances or got a pen that should have been given.

We were at at all time low at the beginning of this campaign, but it had being coming for years. In the latter days of O'Neill and under McCarthy we barely every registered a shot on goal. We would have 30% possession at home to the likes of Georgia with an ageing squad. Now for the 1st time in a long time there is a sense of optimism around the squad. We were supposed to believe from the Jason McAteers of the world that the players wouldnt play for Kenny because they didnt know him. Thats all put to bed now. You can see the players are busting a gut for him and are trying to implement how he wants us to play, and we have such a young squad now too.

I just think the overhaul he is doing takes time and there are clear and obvious signs that its starting to pay dividends. We have no right to beat anyone, the minnows of 20 years ago are not as bad as they were and we have to accept we are not as good as we were. Could you imagine us having the captain of one of the biggest clubs in the world bossing our midfield now. We used to take that sort of thing for granted. Robbie Keane used to take abuse cos supposedly only scored against weaker teams. We'd kill to have someone like Robbie now. If you listened to Brady last night you would think we have a team of Champions League winners.

Ah here, stop talking sense will ya! It might catch on !

[samhaydenjr]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

Yes, I think it is fair to use the Luxembourg game to make a final judgement on Kenny for two reasons:
- First, he needs to exorcise the ghost of the home defeat. People make much of the Cyprus defeat for Stan, but had Ireland comfortably beaten Cyprus at home, then the 5-2 have looked like an aberration in his second competitive game and the overall picture would have looked better, particularly had we not given up late goals in Wales and/or Slovakia, which were still decent results. Kenny needs to do what Staunton failed to do in his return fixture.
- Second, he's had enough time to bed in - we need to be confident that we will go into the Euro 24 qualifiers that we will be able to comfortably handle the mediocre and poor teams, at the very least and anything other than a decent win on Sunday would put a big question mark over that

[Snapshot]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

I disagree on Kenny, but your Peig reference is a lovely touch. Fág Peig ina haonar. Ni fheicfimid a leithéid arís.

[texidub]

Yes, fair enough. But Peig never played at a decent level (mostly due to taking up smoking pipe tobacco at a young age, IMO) and was never picked for Ireland, despite being the Wes Hoolahan of her day, so it's all a bit moot.

Seemed to be agreement here before this window started that the Lux game was the big one. I am sure the team felt the same way. Just mentioning because all the talk is about Portugals' minds being elsewhere with no mention being made of the fact that Ireland's focus was also on the next game to some extent. Portugese team comments after the game spoke about the Irish aggression and how they were basically bullied off the ball. Great to hear. We may end up with a team that combines intelligent play with aggression, something we haven't had for decades.

I hope they come out looking for blood tomorrow night.

[pineapple stu]

Yes, I think it is fair to use the Luxembourg game to make a final judgement on Kenny for two reasons:

I think to expand on your post a little bit, we could maybe have a look at where Kenny's Ireland is at after 19 games.

1 - There's definitely some recent improvement. Let's put that out front and centre.
2 - Defending is our strength. 17 goals conceded in those 19 games. 7 clean sheets. We've not conceded more than once in any home game. That's all quite decent.
3 - Against decent attacking teams, we can be torn apart. Serbia (twice) and England showed that. We were blessed in that home game against Serbia (great keeper performance, poor Serbian finishing, a farcical own goal) and even 3-2 in Belgrade flattered us. That's a slight concern - but they'll tear other teams apart too of course.
4 - Portugal aren't a decent attacking team. We've seen that in the twice we've played them. They should be with the players they have, but they're not. Razor's Left Peg has given a good insider view of why that might be the case and it tallies in with what's been said before, both here and on RTÉ commentary. It's why I'm happy to urge caution on going over the top with the result on Thursday. It was, to channel Grumpy Dunphy, good but not great Bill.
5 - Against teams of our level - Bulgaria, Wales, Finland, Hungary, Slovakia - we are singularly inept in front of goal. Eight games, one goal. Our qualifying group had no teams of our own level - Serbia are a good second seed, and Luxembourg are a poor fourth seed - so the next Nations League campaign will be a very good marker of progress. Needless to say, we won't get anywhere scoring one goal in eight games against sides of our strength.
6 - Against poor teams - Qatar, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan - we showed a seriously worrying inability to take the game to them. The defeat to Luxembourg and the draws v Qatar and Azerbaijan were some of the most inept performances I've ever seen from an Ireland team. We were limp, lifeless and unimaginative - not once, but three times - and deserved what we got. Again, it comes back to the toothless attack, which isn't entirely Kenny's fault of course. Last month was a definite improvement in that regard of course. So I think a good performance and a win is needed tomorrow to show improvement.
7 - Against minnows...well, the first hour against Andorra was probably the worst we've played under Kenny, which is saying a lot. But then they got tired and shipped four, which will happen, but in a way that game was an extension of the same pattern.

There's no point taking a draw off a disinterested Portugal side if we then can't beat the teams around us or the teams below us. And the latter is fundamental if we're to, say, stay in the second tier of the Nations League or mount a qualification bid for the next Euros.

Our recovery is showing, and I think he's earned the right to see out his contract at least. But it's still fragile. A poor performance tomorrow and questions will rightly be asked. Five points from four games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan for example - what does that say about Kenny's ability to lead us to Euro 2024?

For all that, I'm more confident about tomorrow's game than I've been in a while.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Horse manure. Not one of Kenny defenders has said he’s Guardiola, or anything like it. The reality is he took over a squad that needed overhauling, that lacked the quality of previous years and where the young players he is introducing need time, as does he. Things are definitely improving, only the wilfully obstinate won’t admit that.

Which part of this are you disagreeing with?

"He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had."

He took over a squad who came very close to qualifying automatically from a group with Denmark and Switzerland. The Kenny fanatics always try to paint us as minnows prior to him taking over, the truth is he dragged us down to that level. Instead of consistently battling it out with the top 2, Kenny has us battling it out with the bottom 2.

[pineapple stu]

One little side-note from the Portugal game actually - it's the first time since Euro 72 that we've finished a qualification campaign without a home win.

1970, 1962, 1938 and 1934 are the only other times we've managed that feat, and in those pre-war tournaments we only played one home game.

[mypost]

Well, yeah, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about with people giving no credit for improvement at all. No doubt if we win in Luxembourg it will be “its only Luxembourg ffs”.

First, it was "only" Andorra. Second, it was "only" Azerbaijan. Third, it was "only" Qatar. Now, it's only a Portugal "B" Team. Then it will be "only" Luxembourg.

Now, it's "only" 3 straight clean sheets and 8 positive results in 9 games. It may not carry the same weight as "3 wins in 18", but the signs are there that progress in results is finally happening now that most of the new players have finally found their feet, and offers optimism for the next campaign that we can at least challenge for 3rd, with Kenny in charge. The sacrifice has been this campaign, but most fans knew beforehand that a group with Portugal in it meant it had to be written off as a player development campaign.

...as they were when he was on the coaching ticket with Trap.
Just extended your last sentence there! That's what I started thinking while watching Brady post match - is he unwilling to praise the way Kenny and his staff have encouraged the team to play, out of fear of criticism being raised about why we played like we did under Trap (with players playing at a higher level).
He was talking nonsense about waiting to see how the nations league goes, that's completely not the time to change manager.

He made up his mind about Kenny long ago. And like the others who agree with him, he's waiting in the long grass until the next crisis to remind us all why he thinks the way he does. The Luxembourg game is a meaningless fixture that has to be fulfilled to put this miserable campaign to bed, it's not a cup final and shouldn't be treated as one. After 18 games in charge, we should have seen enough evidence by now to decide whether Kenny should stay on or not. If we win great, if we don't so what. Our fate was decided before the clocks went forward.

How many games did it take John Aldridge before he finally scored for Ireland (eventually being handed a penalty against the mighty Malta).. and he was a top scorer at Liverpool at the time

Idah is 20, learning his trade. Are we going to give young players a chance to grow and develop at all anymore.

Give players time.. patience

The whole campaign is about giving players time. Sadly Idah is hopelessly out of his depth. As regards Aldridge, his first goal for us was a 4 yard tap in v Tunisia at the same ground, but at least he had already made it at club level, Idah doesn't even have that luxury.

It isn't nonsense though.

Whether we drew with them 0-0 or they beat us 10-0 made no difference to them, so they went with the approach of resting players on yellow cards and playing quite conservatively and expending relatively little effort. In the case of Bruno Fernandes, he might as well not have even been on the pitch.

And for what, 80 minutes, it worked out fine for them. Only after Pepe's red card did we really put them under sustained pressure, and even then, that didn't lead to any real chances.

Now, even taking all that into account, we can still be positive about the performance and result, because even a weakened Portugal side trying to see out a game are a cut above us so we did well and can celebrate a solid team performance with some good individual showings, but it makes no sense to ignore how Portugal approached this game.

Unbelievable. Here we are, third clean sheet in 3 games, and it's all the opposition's fault.

Anyone who has seen Portugal over the last several years, will know that they never hammer anyone of note, and all they ever do is just about enough to win games and progress. You look at this group and it's no different. Just about enough to get a point in Serbia and Dublin, just about enough in Faro, just about enough against Azerbaijan in Turin, and just about enough to put them in pole position to qualify from this group, at the very last minute. The bare minimum necessary. Now you can afford to do that with Ronaldo in your team, until you face better opposition who have the players and the firepower to render the tactic useless.

The big long whinge about Kenny throughout this campaign is about results. Now we have two big results at home against the top two seeds in the group, and the whinging continues. No we didn't win them, but we usually don't. Our last home win in a qualifier was the best part of 3 years ago. And even that, against one of the worst teams on earth at any level, was a struggle.

[pineapple stu]

No-one is saying the 0-0 draw was all the opposition's fault. We are saying Portugal's approach to the game is a factor to be considered in analysing the match performance.

Portugal scored 11 goals in their last three qualifiers (well, two qualifiers and a pseudo one). That's not doing "just enough" to win, though it's true they don't do it often enough. They may never hammer anyone of note, but most teams don't. And we're not anyone of note any more. But it's another indication that maybe changing half their team so they could really focus on Serbia did help us.

There's very little whinging about the last three performances - what there is is an attempt to put things in perspective and analyse them. Because that's what happens on a football forum.

And the Luxembourg game does matter, because right now Kenny has had 16 mostly crap performances and 3 half decent ones. Another bad performance tomorrow and it's fair to ask if we just had a random purple/lucky patch

After all that, I think that just leaves your Adam Idah view that I actually agree on. Which is more common ground than most have found with your posts over the years I think!

[mypost]

When you mathematically can't qualify, results don't matter, you're an also ran. After that, you can make whatever you want of results. And you've decided that the last 3 results were a purple patch, a sunny spell in the eye of a storm. I see it as us starting to go somewhere, giving us a platform to build on.

Suggesting that we only got those results because of the quality of the opposition is a disgrace. We're not responsible for the team selection or the perceived lack of quality of the opposition. If they're not good enough or don't take the game seriously on the day, that's not our problem to worry about. We can only face what is put in front of us, and that's what we did. How Portugal approach games is a high risk strategy that will work for a while, but is unsustainable if they're serious about winning major trophies on a regular basis.

He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players, to a side capable of winning games by passing a football from one teammate to another properly. No we're not able to compete at the top table of the game now, but we haven't for most of the past 20 years before he took charge either. It's a long haul process that can't, and hasn't been done in just one qualifying campaign.

[third policeman]

[QUOTE= He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players, to a side capable of winning games by passing a football from one teammate to another properly. No we're not able to compete at the top table of the game now, but we haven't for most of the past 20 years before he took charge either. It's a long haul process that can't, and hasn't been done in just one qualifying campaign.[/QUOTE]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.