Republic of Ireland V Portugal - Thurs, 11th November 2021 - 2022 World Cup Qualifier

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.

That doesn't fit the narrative. We were aging no hopers who were never getting close to qualifying until Pep Kenny came on board.

[third policeman]

I’m willing to be convinced by Kenny on the basis of what has been an improvement, but I don’t buy into the historical revisionism that his supporters indulge in. Yeah we are passing the ball more than we did, and there’s been a bit more fluency and organisation in the last few games, but it still seems a bit fragile. The most worrying thing for me is his faith in players who have never demonstrated (yet, in some cases), that they can play consistently at this level. Maybe Idah and Parrott will come good, but Horgan, Keane, Collins are never going to be good enough. We’re not blessed with striking talent, but Hogan is playing regularly at a higher level and scoring goals.

[pineapple stu]

you've decided that the last 3 results were a purple patch, a sunny spell in the eye of a storm.

Reading isn't your strong point, is it? I've said that it's fair to wonder if the last three games were a purple patch. That's not the same as declaring them so. The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?

Suggesting that we only got those results because of the quality of the opposition is a disgrace. We're not responsible for the team selection or the perceived lack of quality of the opposition.

Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.

He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players

He did have 16 mostly crap performances. Seven games without scoring a goal - our longest run ever. For most of that, we didn't even look like scoring a goal. Defeat at home to Luxembourg, our worst ever competitive defeat. Rescuing a draw against Azerbaijan at home with a late equaliser after another insipid performance - an awful result which ranks well below previous upsets such as draws against Georgia, Cyprus, Lithuania, Albania and Iceland. Being completely outplayed by the only decent attacking sides we met. What more do you want?

And you can't just brush all of that off with a comment about transition. These were guys who by and large didn't play at club level the desperate hoofball stuff Ireland played, so straight off they're halfway there at least. Yes, there were issues around covid and the excessive team changes that caused, and around bringing players through (often when they weren't there), and around the lack of crowds which didn't help us. But it was still 16 games and a year of appalling form, when we weren't even surprised when we were 1-0 down in Andorra after almost an hour. That's too long of a transition period to be honest.

You say we're not able to compete at the top of the table - we don't even know if we can compete at the middle of the table. The Nations League would say we can't. Tomorrow we face a side lower than the middle of the table again, which is why failure to win with a good performance tomorrow would be a big worry.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

[Bielsa´s irish]

For me Kenny is a bluffer. Started an own religion toó! I understand why people would keep him based on faith. I wouldnt. Refs were awful and al the calls were against the green since Belgrado. But he is the main responsible

[EAFC_rdfl]

I disagree on Kenny, but your Peig reference is a lovely touch. Fág Peig ina haonar. Ni fheicfimid a leithéid arís.

Fág doesn't sound right in that context, maybe Lig Peig ina haonar works!

[mypost]

The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?

Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

[Snapshot]

Reading isn't your strong point, is it? I've said that it's fair to wonder if the last three games were a purple patch. That's not the same as declaring them so. The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?


Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.


He did have 16 mostly crap performances. Seven games without scoring a goal - our longest run ever. For most of that, we didn't even look like scoring a goal. Defeat at home to Luxembourg, our worst ever competitive defeat. Rescuing a draw against Azerbaijan at home with a late equaliser after another insipid performance - an awful result which ranks well below previous upsets such as draws against Georgia, Cyprus, Lithuania, Albania and Iceland. Being completely outplayed by the only decent attacking sides we met. What more do you want?

And you can't just brush all of that off with a comment about transition. These were guys who by and large didn't play at club level the desperate hoofball stuff Ireland played, so straight off they're halfway there at least. Yes, there were issues around covid and the excessive team changes that caused, and around bringing players through (often when they weren't there), and around the lack of crowds which didn't help us. But it was still 16 games and a year of appalling form, when we weren't even surprised when we were 1-0 down in Andorra after almost an hour. That's too long of a transition period to be honest.

You say we're not able to compete at the top of the table - we don't even know if we can compete at the middle of the table. The Nations League would say we can't. Tomorrow we face a side lower than the middle of the table again, which is why failure to win with a good performance tomorrow would be a big worry.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

Brilliant common-sense summary. Well done.

[Snapshot]

Fág doesn't sound right in that context, maybe Lig Peig ina haonar works!

Absolutely, thanks. I try hard.

[liamoo11]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

All of that is reasonable but when does it become important for Kenny to start winning games and to be at least in contention to qualify cone the last round or 2 of qualifying games?

By the time we start our next nations league group he will have over 20 games as manager will there be an expectation for that group that we should be challenging and in contention to top it up to the last round of games?

Or are we saying that it's the euro qualification group that expectations kick in and until then everything gets a free pass? And what is the expectation for the next euros group?

If we don't qualify for the euros but continue to play football that people find attractive would Kenny be under pressure then or would he have another contract extension to take us through the following World Cup group?

By the time the next euro s would be over our current up and coming promising generation of players who were impressive through the age groups from 16s 17s and 19s up to 21s with Kenny and have transitioned into the senior picture such as connolly, obafemi, parrott,ebosele, Knight, Collins kelleher, bazunu, omobamidele,molumby,ronan, idah etc will be mid 20s and likely getting close to their prime. Its unlikely that the current 21s and 19s squads will provide as many players to the senior set up but hopefully a few special ones will come through..

is Kenny destined to be afforded the opportunity to qualify for the next World Cup with these players regardless of results up to then ? Would that World Cup be the cut off or if we were competitive and missed out through a playoff would he still be around for the following euros?

[pineapple stu]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't.

Typical mypost stuff - ignore the points made as to why the Luxembourg game is important, and just repeat the same irrelevancy (we can't qualify for the World Cup).

If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Again wantonly distorting what I said, and throwing in a few absurdities for good measure. To tick them off quickly -

> I don't think any change in style is worth losing home and away to Luxembourg
> Losing 1-0 at home to Luxembourg in a performance where we had what - one shot on target? - absolutely is worse than losing 5-1 against Denmark (when we had to chase the game) or 6-1 at home to Germany (which spelled the beginning of the end for Trap)
> I've already said I've not dismissed the Portugal draw - I've tried to put it in context. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this given you've ignored me on that already.
> The Andorra story isn't that they were ahead for 7 minutes. It's that after 55 minutes, they were deservedly ahead. That is, for 55 minutes we had played so abjectly against a team of part-timers that we had barely mustered a chance of note and were losing. That's much different than, say, conceding an early goal and quickly equalising (like 2001) or pummeling them and being hit on the break.

[Olé Olé]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.

Nearly all? That's some going. Is Kenny allowed to pick an extended panel so that he include "nearly all" of Mick's squad and all of the players he has given debuts to?

[third policeman]

[QUOTE=mypost;209496 Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so..[/QUOTE]

How many of the players that he has brought in have been integral to the new style of play. Cullen maybe? As I have said, before, I’m willing to give him a chance, but this Messianic thing, doesn’t square with the facts. He’s brought in young players, some of whom look promising and some are clearly not ready for this level.

[Olé Olé]

How many of the players that he has brought in have been integral to the new style of play. Cullen maybe? As I have said, before, I’m willing to give him a chance, but this Messianic thing, doesn’t square with the facts. He’s brought in young players, some of whom look promising and some are clearly not ready for this level.

Bazunu is as important as anybody. Doherty is featuring more frequently. Callum Robinson has become essential. Omobamidele was very good against Serbia as the third centre half, comfortable in defence and pushing up a little. That is 5.

[mark12345]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

AND THE WINNER IS!! Truth is you both make extremely compelling points and both of your viewpoints more than hold up to scrutiny. All of which is to say that tonight's game is as big a crossroads game for an Irish manager as there ever has been.

[Stuttgart88]

Typical mypost stuff - ignore the points made as to why the Luxembourg game is important, and just repeat the same irrelevancy (we can't qualify for the World Cup).


Again wantonly distorting what I said, and throwing in a few absurdities for good measure. To tick them off quickly -

> I don't think any change in style is worth losing home and away to Luxembourg
> Losing 1-0 at home to Luxembourg in a performance where we had what - one shot on target? - absolutely is worse than losing 5-1 against Denmark (when we had to chase the game) or 6-1 at home to Germany (which spelled the beginning of the end for Trap)
> I've already said I've not dismissed the Portugal draw - I've tried to put it in context. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this given you've ignored me on that already.
> The Andorra story isn't that they were ahead for 7 minutes. It's that after 55 minutes, they were deservedly ahead. That is, for 55 minutes we had played so abjectly against a team of part-timers that we had barely mustered a chance of note and were losing. That's much different than, say, conceding an early goal and quickly equalising (like 2001) or pummeling them and being hit on the break.

I'd say in the long term a change in style/outlook/philosophy is worth some short term pain. Lux at home was no worse than, say, Gibraltar under Mick, home and away. Abject rubbish on both occasions, the only difference being that in Gibraltar Randolph saved our bacon at a critical moment in the game. I'd allow Mick the plastic pitch and strong wind as a factor away, but home was just deplorable. Lux at home was in a soulless empty stadium as were the NL games. That cuts any manager some slack in my book - no home advantage. An opportunistic pot shot on 88 minutes went in, Denmark systematically dismantled us. I think you're being overly critical of some of the earlier Kenny performances. Helsinki and Cardiff were both pretty decent, a key moment in each game being the difference. Objectively I'd say they were better performances than any in our earlier NL campaign.

Bazunu, Robinson, Cullen, Doherty, Duffy, Coleman, Hendrick and others are playing great stuff and Hendrick is playing his best in 5 years. Duffy is a man possessed.

I've been a fan of yours personally since we both joined this forum donkeys' years ago but man, your whingeing over pretty much everything from the context of the Portugal game (no doubt beating the All Blacks was facile yesterday) to a 19 year old tier 3 goalkeeper capturing the hearts of the nation is making me seriously considering blocking/ignoring you. You'd be the first. There have been WUMs galore here down the years but they intend to wind people up. You're just being wilfully petty and one-eyed. Really tiresome.

[pineapple stu]

Ah come on Stutts. Is that how you react to a view different to yours?

Yes, Lansdowne was empty for the Luxembourg game, and yes we're in transition. But a read back on the match thread will show that most posters were of the view that Kenny should resign/be sacked after it not just for that performance, but for his career to date. This post from NeverFeltBetter expresses it best -

The issue is that in 11 games things aren't really improving at all. Yes COVID, yes injuries, but the team looks as incapable offensively as they did when Kenny started. Some fighting defeats are as good as it has gotten.

Let's not get revisionist about it all now that we've gotten a couple of good results.

Ditto the Bazunu stuff - there can be no harm in some balance in analysing his performances, because a lot of the comments about him (not just here) have been, as you accuse me, one-eyed.

[third policeman]

Bazunu is as important as anybody. Doherty is featuring more frequently. Callum Robinson has become essential. Omobamidele was very good against Serbia as the third centre half, comfortable in defence and pushing up a little. That is 5.

No that’s four players actually, not all of them have instrumental to a change in style, especially a goal keeper, Robinson got caps under Mick, when available, Doherty is not exactly a neophyte. Omobamidele is a real find, but not sure that he wouldn’t have promoted irrespective of who the manager was.

[Stuttgart88]

Ah come on Stutts. Is that how you react to a view different to yours?

Ditto the Bazunu stuff - there can be no harm in some balance in analysing his performances, because a lot of the comments about him (not just here) have been, as you accuse me, one-eyed.

No, it's how I react to constant tedious whingeing.

I don't recall any as one eyed about Bazunu as you have been. I think most have recognised that he' s got away with some mistakes that would have changed the narrative. But I'd take Shane Duffy's opinion of him over anyone's here.

[Olé Olé]

No that’s four players actually, not all of them have instrumental to a change in style, especially a goal keeper, Robinson got caps under Mick, when available, Doherty is not exactly a neophyte. Omobamidele is a real find, but not sure that he wouldn’t have promoted irrespective of who the manager was.

4 to go with Cullen that you had already put forward... Actually.

[John83]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile,

Subjective.

but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key

Here's what I last had to say on it.

...Sterner tests await, and I feel like the league table - which sees us 1 point behind Luxembourg albeit with much better goal difference hinting at some bad luck - is still the litmus test Kenny is failing. The game against Luxembourg next window will be critical in assessing whether Kenny has really found his feet.

Would you like to apologise for lying about the shifting goalposts? I get the feeling I'll be waiting.

What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg?

Pineapple Stu has already dismantled this.

But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?

Yes, because he's fourth, and in losing to Luxembourg and drawing with Azerbaijan (both aberrant performances, you say; gosh he must be unlucky as hell). If he'd beaten Luxembourg already, this would not be a critical game for him. It will decide whether or not he finishes 4th behind a Luxembourg team which is objectively rubbish.

There's bull and there's total bull.

Seeing as my post came first, I guess we know what that makes yours.

And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

Gosh, if you thought I was sneering at her, you would be traumatised by my attitude to your unwarranted belligerence.