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Thread: Embarrasing riches: who is Ireland's best goalkeeper?

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Well (a) you can't remove his blunders like that because they did happen and (b) while you mention that Travers has a better defence in front of him, you don't mention that Bazunu is facing poorer forwards because he's playing a division lower. You can't twist stats like that.

    Similarly to the poster who said that Bazunu has had some great performances for Ireland if you ignore the errors. If you've made some good saved but you also come haring out to the edge of the box to almost give a goal away, then you've not had a great performance. Keepers don't tend to get away with their mistakes as much as other players, so consistency and level-headedness is vital in a keeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Well (a) you can't remove his blunders like that because they did happen and (b) while you mention that Travers has a better defence in front of him, you don't mention that Bazunu is facing poorer forwards because he's playing a division lower. You can't twist stats like that.
    Calm down. (a) Small sample size - ideally the sample should be a season long. Bazunu is having a bump on the road at the moment, an abnormality in his performance statistics. Unlikely Travers and Bournemouth are going to coast through the full season as they currently are doing. When Travers has that bump it will skew his comparison with Bazunu. (b) It's a shots on target statistical comparison - do we need to adjust the comparison to make allowance for L1 strikers not hitting the ball as hard or as accurately as their Championship counterparts? Let's not be silly - you're not defining "poorer" here either. Explain how they are "poorer" in terms of shots on target?

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Similarly to the poster who said that Bazunu has had some great performances for Ireland if you ignore the errors. If you've made some good saved but you also come haring out to the edge of the box to almost give a goal away, then you've not had a great performance. Keepers don't tend to get away with their mistakes as much as other players, so consistency and level-headedness is vital in a keeper.
    Bazunu has a 83% competitive save percentage for Ireland, 30 shots on target, 5 goals conceded. I'm happy with that. Why aren't you?

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Calm down. (a) Small sample size - ideally the sample should be a season long. Bazunu is having a bump on the road at the moment, an abnormality in his performance statistics.
    Well no - you can't just adjust stats to take out data points you don't like. See how it compares later in the season, sure. But the blunders happened and can't be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    do we need to adjust the comparison to make allowance for L1 strikers not hitting the ball as hard or as accurately as their Championship counterparts? Let's not be silly - you're not defining "poorer" here either. Explain how they are "poorer" in terms of shots on target?
    It definitely needs to be considered, because L1 players are playing in a lower league and by definition are poorer players. Would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares?

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Bazunu has a 83% competitive save percentage for Ireland, 30 shots on target, 5 goals conceded. I'm happy with that. Why aren't you?
    I think I've voiced my concerns in that regard many times - the save percentage is too blunt a statistical tool. If a keeper has a blunder a game in them (dropping the corner at home v Azerbaijan, the overruled penalty v Qatar, the fumble onto the post in Portugal, etc, etc) then that's a concern that overrides percentages. Your stat doesn't take into account how lucky he's been playing for Ireland, for example.

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    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Well no - you can't just adjust stats to take out data points you don't like. See how it compares later in the season, sure. But the blunders happened and can't be ignored.
    Ok. I'd have my concerns about Travers, think his stats so far don't take into account how lucky he is to be playing for Bournemouth at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    It definitely needs to be considered, because L1 players are playing in a lower league and by definition are poorer players. Would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares?
    So how are the shots on target poorer? Is there less power in the shots, are they less accurate, would Gianluigi Buffon in his prime have a 100% save percentage if he played LSL? Explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think I've voiced my concerns in that regard many times - the save percentage is too blunt a statistical tool. If a keeper has a blunder a game in them (dropping the corner at home v Azerbaijan, the overruled penalty v Qatar, the fumble onto the post in Portugal, etc, etc) then that's a concern that overrides percentages. Your stat doesn't take into account how lucky he's been playing for Ireland, for example.
    Subjectivism is a blunter tool.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Do I honestly need to explain in detail how poorer players have poorer shots on target? It should be completely self-evident. Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things. But there's reaction time too. Ability to anticipate errors. Ability to find or create space in the box, to get that bit further away from a marker and get a cleaner shot in. Lots of things.

    Would Buffon have a 100% save percentage in the LSL? He'd be bloody close, yes. Because LSL forwards are ****e compared to Buffon in his prime. And you didn't answer my question - would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?

    How is Travers lucky to be playing at Bournemouth? Does that mean he has been lucky in terms of not conceding goals from his mistakes? Because they're very different things. And I don't see why you think that's a reason to ignore Bazunu's blunders because it suits your argument.

    (This isn't me being anti-Bazunu btw - this is me being anti bad statistics. And anti bad English too - how am I being subjective when I'm literally quoting examples and giving reasons why your argument is weak?)
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 22/10/2021 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Do I honestly need to explain in detail how poorer players have poorer shots on target? It should be completely self-evident. Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things.
    Sure, do that. No subjective wishy washy please. Explain how a Championship player striker hits the ball with more power than his L1 counterpart.


    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Would Buffon have a 100% save percentage in the LSL? He'd be bloody close, yes. Because LSL forwards are ****e compared to Buffon in his prime.
    Ok - sure. But is that a subjective opinion or factual? English no good.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Have you any evidence of Travers' luck at Bournemouth? It may be true, but it still doesn't mean you can ignore Bazunu's blunders because it suits your argument.
    Yes I have watched him play. Travers looks very nervy to me, dodgy on crosses, looks like he would struggle under sustained pressure. IMO Bazunu is more composed, faster reactions and better distribution. All my subjective opinion of course, don't have blunt statistics to back this up but allow me to mention that Bazunu competitive save percentage for Ireland is 83% and the save percentage for Travers is 25%.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    (This isn't me being anti-Bazunu btw - this is me being anti bad statistics. And anti bad English too - how am I being subjective when I'm literally quoting examples and giving reasons why your argument is weak?)
    Bazunu's decision making can be weak but he done fine for Ireland in my subjective opinion and his save percentage backs that opinion up. I think I'd rather have a subjectively lucky keeper in the nets than a subjectively unlucky one. Are statistics bad when you don't like them?

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Sure, do that. No subjective wishy washy please. Explain how a Championship player striker hits the ball with more power than his L1 counterpart.
    You literally deleted the part of my post where I explained the difference between forwards at different levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Ok - sure. But is that a subjective opinion or factual?
    Are you actually asking if it is factual that Buffon in his prime - one of the greatest keepers ever - would have close on a 100% save rate in the LSL? Seriously?

    And once again, you've ignored my question on whether you would say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Yes I have watched him play. Travers looks very nervy to me, dodgy on crosses, looks like he would struggle under sustained pressure. IMO Bazunu is more composed, faster reactions and better distribution. All my subjective opinion of course, don't have blunt statistics to back this up but allow me to mention that Bazunu competitive save percentage for Ireland is 83% and the save percentage for Travers is 25%.
    You said he was lucky to be playing at Bournemouth, but haven't explained that. You've now compared save rates from literally one game, which was away to a decent team who battered, us to a series of games diluted by home games against markedly worse forwards from Azerbaijan, Luxembourg and Qatar. Do you not see the issue with that? Like, earlier you talk about the issues of a small sample and then you try to use a sample of one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Bazunu's decision making can be weak but he done fine for Ireland in my subjective opinion and his save percentage backs that opinion up. I think I'd rather have a subjectively lucky keeper in the nets than a subjectively unlucky one. Are statistics bad when you don't like them?
    But I've pointed out how your one blunt statistic isn't really useful in the overall context. Statistics are bad when they're bad. I've outlined why your stat is bad. But you're now trying to twist this into how I don't like the outcome your bad stats are showing?

    I'm not sure what you think you're trying to achieve here by ignoring my arguments and just re-iterating your badly-informed viewpoints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You literally deleted the part of my post where I explained the difference between forwards at different levels.

    Are you actually asking if it is factual that Buffon in his prime - one of the greatest keepers ever - would have close on a 100% save rate in the LSL? Seriously?

    And once again, you've ignored my question on whether you would say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?
    Calm down. You have yet to explain the difference. You have said it is completely self-evident, ie not needing explanation, - the shots on target of L1 players are poorer. Explain how the shots on target of a L1 player have less power and less accuracy than a Championship player?

    And no, I don't think Buffon would have a close to 100% save percentage in the LSL - yes, seriously. Don't have save percentages for Talbot or Maher.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You said he was lucky to be playing at Bournemouth, but haven't explained that. You've now compared save rates from literally one game, which was away to a decent team who battered, us to a series of games diluted by home games against markedly worse forwards from Azerbaijan, Luxembourg and Qatar. Do you not see the issue with that? Like, earlier you talk about the issues of a small sample and then you try to use a sample of one.
    He is facing 2.6 shots on target per game at Bournemouth - stated in my initial post. Subjectively that is low number, so is it not subjectively lucky for Travers to play in a team with subjectively little to do? The Bazunu statistics are for competitive games for Ireland, they do not include the Qatar games (friendlies) and they include matches against Serbia and Portugal (subjectively teams at a higher level than L1/ Championship - more accurate and powerful shots?).

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    But I've pointed out how your one blunt statistic isn't really useful in the overall context. Statistics are bad when they're bad. I've outlined why your stat is bad. But you're now trying to twist this into how I don't like the outcome your bad stats are showing?

    I'm not sure what you think you're trying to achieve here by ignoring my arguments and just re-iterating your badly-informed viewpoints.
    Ok. Cheerio.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Calm down. You have yet to explain the difference. You have said it is completely self-evident, ie not needing explanation, - the shots on target of L1 players are poorer. Explain how the shots on target of a L1 player have less power and less accuracy than a Championship player?
    Did you maybe read where I gave my reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu
    Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things. But there's reaction time too. Ability to anticipate errors. Ability to find or create space in the box, to get that bit further away from a marker and get a cleaner shot in. Lots of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    And no, I don't think Buffon would have a close to 100% save percentage in the LSL - yes, seriously. Don't have save percentages for Talbot or Maher.
    So why do you think the best keeper in the world wouldn't have close to a 100% save percentage in the LSL? Because that's a fairly out there claim that really needs some sort of back-up to it.

    And I didn't ask you if you had percentages for Talbot or Maher - I asked you if they had similar percentage rates to Travers, would you consider them equal to him?

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    He is facing 2.6 shots on target per game at Bournemouth - stated in my initial post. Subjectively that is low number, so is it not subjectively lucky for Travers to play in a team with subjectively little to do?
    Not really. Good team has good goalie - hardly a shock? And the point of percentages is to compare on a level playing field (ie per hundred; shots in this case), so if you want work in percentages, you can't then bring the number of shots into things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    The Bazunu statistics are for competitive games for Ireland, they do not include the Qatar games (friendlies) and they include matches against Serbia and Portugal (subjectively teams at a higher level than L1/ Championship - more accurate and powerful shots?).
    You're again abusing stats though. My point is that by including games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan (I don't know why you'd exclude Qatar, but fine), you dilute the overall quality of player he's playing against, and so your comparison isn't really fair because you've taken one game with four shots (too small a data sample) and compared it with games which, overall, are of a lower level.

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    Stu, we know your view on Bazunu by now. It's a bit one-eyed I think but it's what you think so that's OK.

    I'm less clear on your view of Travers or Kelleher. Has anything you've seen of either caused any concern for example?

    Me: I think Travers looks calm and composed at club level now and has taken his chance really well, but struggles to read the flight of the ball at corners. A big lad like him should have no bother with balls into his 6 yard box but he starts to come, stops, and just never makes his mind up. Even in a procession of a game like Tuesday's he got confused by one.

    I was a Kelleher-sceptic after the Toulon tournament a few years ago but felt the accolades he was receiving can't have come from nowhere so I put trust in others' views. His League Cup outings didn't impress me last season and I thought he played very well v Ajax but got bailed out by an offside call when he totally missed an inswinging ball. The same error by the Ajax keeper led to Liverpool's goal that night. I haven't seen Kelleher tested by these type of situations enough.

    I thought he looked the better of 2 good keepers in Hungary and he looks to have grown up a lot too. His body language is much more "I'm the man" now, whereas before it was "I'm a rookie, I hope I don't mess up". He saved a rubbish pen at Norwich having in my opinion been a bit at fault in the immediate build up.

    Two bad club games in a row by Bazunu might prompt SK into a rethink and I think Kelleher's new-found maturity might elevate him at some stage soon. I think Bazunu is touch and go for November now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    He has played 10 senior games for Liverpool, and impressed every time.
    That's just not true.

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    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Two bad club games in a row by Bazunu might prompt SK into a rethink and I think Kelleher's new-found maturity might elevate him at some stage soon. I think Bazunu is touch and go for November now.
    I'd expect Portsmouth will give him a rest now. If he's not playing at club level, you have to question playing him against Portugal. Kenny's familiarity with Kelleher will probably see him get the nod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Did you maybe read where I gave my reasons?
    Missed those reasons. Did you edit your post to add those in? :-) Anyways, they are all fine attributes that give reason as to why a Championship player is more skillful than a L1 player, but not necessarily an explanation as to why a Championship player hits a shot on target with more power and accuracy than his L1 counterpart.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    So why do you think the best keeper in the world wouldn't have close to a 100% save percentage in the LSL? Because that's a fairly out there claim that really needs some sort of back-up to it.
    Sure, simple explanation. Buffonís reach is less than the dimensions of a goals. That a LSL player lacks the technical ability and physical attributes of, for example, a Ronaldo, does not mean he is incapable of hitting a shot on target with power and accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    And I didn't ask you if you had percentages for Talbot or Maher - I asked you if they had similar percentage rates to Travers, would you consider them equal to him?
    I havenít seen much of Maher but do like the look of Talbot. But Bazunu is in my subjective opinion a superior goalie and we know he is capable of doing a good job at international level. We donít know if Talbot can perform at international level so I do not consider the two players equal. The likelihood is Bazunu, Kelleher and Travers are the options for Portugal. Hence the comparison between Bazunu and Travers, and not randomness.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Not really. Good team has good goalie - hardly a shock? And the point of percentages is to compare on a level playing field (ie per hundred; shots in this case), so if you want work in percentages, you can't then bring the number of shots into things.
    Simplistic to say good teams have good goalies. Bournemouth were heavily rumoured with goalkeepers earlier in the season so, subjectively, they had identified that position as a position needing strengthening. Travers had done well since but based on the Stoke game I watched earlier in the week, he subjectively still has work to do in improving his game. Not sure what you want to say in the latter part here, something about stats not meeting self-defined parameters?

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You're again abusing stats though. My point is that by including games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan (I don't know why you'd exclude Qatar, but fine), you dilute the overall quality of player he's playing against, and so your comparison isn't really fair because you've taken one game with four shots (too small a data sample) and compared it with games which, overall, are of a lower level.
    It's your incorrect opinion that stats are being abused. I didnít include Qatar as it was a friendly (does that need explanation? :-)), and the Luxembourg player that scored against us looked quite good tbf (at least Championship standard, no?) And Iíve posted the club stats for both Travers and Bazunu. I posted Bazunuís competitive international stats to illustrate he is subjectively doing well for us.

    Are we ok now? Agree to disagree?

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    I place far more stock in ifk101's statistics than i do in the headlines over the last few days about "Travers 6 clean sheets in a row" which is made up of so many variables as to be completely meaningless. At least the stats that ifk has produced allow for a fair degree of relative comparison. Based on available statistics though, is it even fair to compare Kelleher? Theres not much of a body of work available.

    I think i have said it on here before that, in my subjective opinion (aaaaagh!), for the goalkeeper position, the level you are playing at matters less in this type of conversation than it does for other positions. A goalkeeper playing in L1 is relatively closer in ability to a goalkeeper playing in the Premier League than, say, a pair of strikers would be. I'm not saying the gap in ability is negligible, i am just saying it is less of a gap at that position. The goalkeeping population is so much smaller that the quality gets spread a little further down the divisions.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Stu, we know your view on Bazunu by now. It's a bit one-eyed I think but it's what you think so that's OK.

    I'm less clear on your view of Travers or Kelleher. Has anything you've seen of either caused any concern for example?
    Well again - the point I was arguing here was that you can't say Bazunu and Travers are saving the same number of shots, so they're both as good, while ignoring that one is playing in a higher division than the other. I did say I was arguing against bad statistics and bad evaluation, and not Bazunu per se.

    Just to clear that bit up first.

    I would broadly agree with your analysis. I was on holidays last month when that Liverpool v Norwich game was on, and I was talking to a Liverpool fan who was watching it, and he said Kelleher was "a class keeper" and didn't know how he wasn't starting for Ireland. OK, he's not going to be watching Bazunu, but I thought it was encouraging to hear a regular Liverpool fan describe him so positively. He was very impressive v Hungary as you say, and the Qatar game was a waste of time. He's in an awkward position at club level of course - and yet Wales have done reasonably well of late with Danny Ward in nets (15 games for Leicester in four years, all in Cups) over, say, Adam Davies, who gets game time a division lower at Stoke. It's not a fully like-for-like comparison, but regular training with a top Premier Division team (Liverpool or Leicester) is better than people give credit for I think. But of course it would be better if he was regularly starting somewhere.

    Bazunu has huge potential, but I think people need to be more reasonable about where he's at right now. People were saying last year that he was getting rave reviews at Rochdale (but I could never find any), and lately they've been saying he's been faultless for us (but he clearly hasn't). There was hopes he could get a move to a Championship club this year, but that didn't happen (I wonder were Bournemouth ever interested?) So it might sound like I'm constantly giving out about the guy, but really I'm just trying to bring in some balance to things. I also do get the feeling that his luck for us is due a turn for the worse and we'll see something like his recent Portsmouth exploits.

    But for November, possession is 9/10th of the law when it comes to keepers. It's certainly his spot to lose, but I'd like to see more rotation in the spring friendlies and in the Nations League, because it's far from clear at the moment who our long-term number 1 is going to be.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Missed those reasons. Did you edit your post to add those in? :-) Anyways, they are all fine attributes that give reason as to why a Championship player is more skillful than a L1 player, but not necessarily an explanation as to why a Championship player hits a shot on target with more power and accuracy than his L1 counterpart.
    But more power and accuracy is one of the major things that defines a better forward. I don't see why you would think a forward playing in a lower division has more power and accuracy than one playing in a higher division. That's literally what we have divisions for. And I don't know why you're so obsessed with power and accuracy at the expense of all the other things I listed which make a better forward create better chances in a higher tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    Sure, simple explanation. Buffon’s reach is less than the dimensions of a goals. That a LSL player lacks the technical ability and physical attributes of, for example, a Ronaldo, does not mean he is incapable of hitting a shot on target with power and accuracy.
    This...really is an answer staggering in its ignorance of both football and statistics to be quite honest. An LSL player lacking the technical and physical attributes of Ronaldo will absolutely hit the ball less powerfully and accurately than Ronaldo. I honestly don't know how you can possibly argue any other way. Power alone is strongly impacted by physical attributes - if you are stronger, better conditioned, etc, you will of course hit the ball stronger, and Ronaldo is absolutely better conditioned than an LSL player. (Source - look at him, and look at an LSL player)

    The LSL player may on occasion deliver an unstoppable shot into the top corner, but that is going to happen far less often than it would for Ronaldo, and therefore Buffon is absolutely going to make more saves in the LSL.

    I'm not sure how to to engage a discussion where you are with a straight face suggesting that Buffon at his prime would make as many saves in the LSL as he would in Serie A.

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    Travers didn't play in the 0-0 draw against Hull, which after the run of clean sheets, so the consecutive away clean sheets record is a club record, not a player record

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Travers didn't play in the 0-0 draw against Hull, which after the run of clean sheets, so the consecutive away clean sheets record is a club record, not a player record
    Agree completely, Tets. I was just shocked at the number of articles with the headline beside a picture of Travers with a big happy head on him!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    But more power and accuracy is one of the major things that defines a better forward. I don't see why you would think a forward playing in a lower division has more power and accuracy than one playing in a higher division. That's literally what we have divisions for. And I don't know why you're so obsessed with power and accuracy at the expense of all the other things I listed which make a better forward create better chances in a higher tier.
    The stats I provided, that you take objection to, are shots on target/ save percentages. Focus on that rather than going off on a tangent. Sure, better players play in higher divisions. But good saves are made across all divisions. The stats I've posted offer a basis for comparison between Bazunu and Travers. Defining a "better forward" is not the issue here and something you'll do well to explore yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    This...really is an answer staggering in its ignorance of both football and statistics to be quite honest. An LSL player lacking the technical and physical attributes of Ronaldo will absolutely hit the ball less powerfully and accurately than Ronaldo. I honestly don't know how you can possibly argue any other way. Power alone is strongly impacted by physical attributes - if you are stronger, better conditioned, etc, you will of course hit the ball stronger, and Ronaldo is absolutely better conditioned than an LSL player. (Source - look at him, and look at an LSL player)

    The LSL player may on occasion deliver an unstoppable shot into the top corner, but that is going to happen far less often than it would for Ronaldo, and therefore Buffon is absolutely going to make more saves in the LSL.
    Calm down, and keep it cordial. A LSL player is certainly capable of hitting a shot on target with power and accuracy. Ignorance is yours if it is evoking such drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I'm not sure how to to engage a discussion where you are with a straight face suggesting that Buffon at his prime would make as many saves in the LSL as he would in Serie A.
    Your comment was Buffon would have close to a 100% save percentage in LSL. Sure, we can with confidence assume he'd have a higher save percentage than in a professional league - but close to 100%. Get real. And come on, if you have played the game, you'd understand how unlikely it is for a goalie to have a close to 100% save percentage. Consider the multitude of ways a ball can hit the back of the nets. I don't understand why this is so upsetting.

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    Tell me ifk - what do you see as the difference between the world's greatest players and park players in the LSL?

    You describe LSL players who can match Ronaldo for power and accuracy. But clearly they're not as good as Ronaldo. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it logical that Buffon - dropped into the LSL in his prime - would concede as many goals as he did in Serie A? Saying Buffon is smaller than the goal is absolutely meaningless.

    On your stats, I you are quoting a shots-to-save ratios. You say "focus on that" - but I have. It's exactly the stat I challenged at the outset by saying your comparison was invalid because it fails to take into account that a keeper at a higher level is facing better players.

    And I'd also ask you to stop misquoting me - I don't disagree that an "LSL player is certainly capable of hitting a shot on target with power and accuracy". I never disagreed with that. I do fundamentally disagree (a) with the idea that he can match the power and accuracy of Ronaldo, or with enough power and accuracy to trouble Buffon, and (b) that power and accuracy is all there is to being a forward.

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