Political / Social Discussion of London Bombings

[Condex]

Probably!

It doesn't take an Einstein to work out who was responsible for the London attacks, - a group of British-based Muslims. After all, who else would have the capability, or desire to carry out such acts? The sad thing is that people who showed outrage at the bombers, are the same people who stand up to defend their human rights, and protest against the foreign policies of the USA and other countries in other regions in the world, which are designed to prevent, rather than incite such wicked acts of barbarism. Terrorist suspects are rounded up, funding for their groups is cut, oppressive regimes are changed, and security around the world is tightened, so that massacres like that seen in London, are only rare setbacks rather than the norm. It's also one of the reasons why the USA has been an impregnable fortress to terrorists since the attacks in New York.........................

Agree with most of the things you say..

[Éanna]

What is the purpose. The "west" isn't willing to address what is driving these fundamentalists to blow themselves up? Whats making these organisations recruit? Does a bombing in iraq have the same membership effect on these groups as Bloody Sunday had on the RA?

Until we understand why, we ain't going to be able to fight it or solve the problem.

It hardly helps that some despots are "good" and some are "bad" in the eye's of the west - Saddam is bad isn't an arguement we can win whilst the Saudi's are proped up.

Brilliant post Macy, absolutely spot on.

[Éanna]

The people responsible for what happened yesterday hate the West, democracy and any country where people of different races and religions can live together side by side.
They didn't stop at New York or Madrid and they won't stop at London. Stopping them is virtually impossible.
What has sickened me in the last six months in Britain is the constant whinging of liberals who constantly criticise the efforts of Blair's government to make this fantastic country even safer for those of us who love living here.
They should hang their heads in shame.

Absolute and utter rubbish. Blair and Bush are the reason that these murderers have support. You have to ask yourself why they are doing this- if you don't, you're just as guilty as Blair and Bush.

[CollegeTillIDie]

It seems to have stemmed from in house British muslims.... 5th columnists if you wish to use a term from another bygone era.

As regards ID Cards our government is not necessarily 100% in agreement with them but they argue if the GB government brings them in because of our free travel arrangements with them we will have to. I still don't see what the problem people have with ID Cards is.

The German authorities have them in the Democratic Bundesrepublik and Germany is still very much a model democracy by European standards almost all of the other 25 EU member states have them ourselves and the Brits being the only exception to my knowledge. In Germany it is an offense not carry some form of ID if not an ID card then something like a driver's licence must be produced. Failure to do so land one in jail. Besides if you get injured or killed in a terrorist attack an ID card can help identify you for your relatives... assuming of course it isn't burnt to a frazzle or melted during the attack.

Germany also has an electoral system that guarantees anyone who fails to get 5% of the national ballot WILL NOT GET A SEAT. This was a reaction to the system know as the Weimar Republic where anyone could get elected and this electoral system led to so many small disparate parties and independents getting elected which eventually paved the way for Nazi's to get ELECTED that is correct ELECTED into office. Small undemocratic groupings like neo-Nazis and Proto-communists are banned which is protecting the democratic regime.

The Germans have learned the lessons of history very well and are determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
ID Cards might actually protect the security of the nation and is a small price to pay for having a democratic state.

[Éanna]

only one group of "people" were responsible for yesterday(I know they are in many groups). These people are insane. They are sick, evil pathetic excuses for human beings.

But they aren't just one group liam, thats the problem. There are a great many pople out there in the world who support the actions of these groups because of what they see as the west attacking them- e.g. Iraq. If you take away these issues, their support base would collapse. Shedite was spot on, Blair is just as responsible for this as the people who did it- he should be tried for treason. As for the name-calling, well thats just childish at best Its like saying that every Irish nationalist/republican is a murderer. Like it or not, these people do have reasons for doing what they did. They are wrong, misguided, misled etc etc., but they are being given a reason to do this by Bush and blair

1) Blowing up buses and tubes full of people is not attacking the government or ideologies. There could/would have been anti war people killed along with Muslims, Irish, Germans, Greeks, Polish....bombs don't go "that person is pro-war we will kill them, that person is anti-war they can live", they kill, cripple and maim anyone unfortunate enoguh to be that close.

Is dropping bombs on an apartment block in baghdad getting rid of Saddam? Is shooting a kid for throwing a stone going to defeat Hamas? Its the same problem.

2) They have done Muslims in Britain NO favours. I know people who were totally anti-war before yesterday. One lad would argue tooth and nail against the war, protested against it, everything-now he is all for it. On top of this people will vent their anger on Muslims. I wouldn't matter if they got the people who did it/condone it but they won't-they'll get the innocent Muslims. Talking to some mates from Birmingham the other day (before the attacks) and they were saying Mosques in Birmingham were petrol bombed in the wake of 9/11.......so what is going to happen now it is on our doorstep! Yesterdays actions give BNP/NF/Combat 18 loads of ammo......even people who arn't Muslim but look arab (like my dad) will get abuse/violence.

Racists will always take advantage of these situations to show their true colours.

It's a f*cking disgrace that is no one's fault but the Irslamic fundamendalist terrorists. I hope they rot in hell.

So Blair and Bush did nothing which made this more likely?

[Éanna]

What the Blair government has to do is stop every loony imman/fanatics in the Muslim world taking up resisdence in this country and indoctrinating young muslims... Pack them off back to where they came from...

And sure why don't they kick all the catholic priests out as well in case they're supporting the IRA Have you joined the BNP yet?

[Condex]

And sure why don't they kick all the catholic priests out as well in case they're supporting the IRA Have you joined the BNP yet?

Not a bad idea!!!

[rebs23]

Absolute and utter rubbish. Blair and Bush are the reason that these murderers have support. You have to ask yourself why they are doing this- if you don't, you're just as guilty as Blair and Bush.

Sorry Eanna but these people are around longer than Bush and Blair. Jihad and all that, a religous revolution where the decadent west as they see it will be overthrown and replaced with an Islamic Fundamentalist Heaven similar to the one they tried to create in Afghanistan with no rights for those decadent women, gays, lefties, capitalists etc

[Éanna]

Sorry Eanna but these people are around longer than Bush and Blair. Jihad and all that, a religous revolution where the decadent west as they see it will be overthrown and replaced with an Islamic Fundamentalist Heaven similar to the one they tried to create in Afghanistan with no rights for those decadent women, gays, lefties, capitalists etc

Of course they've been around longer than that, but its not just Bush and Blair- you can go back further and see the causes of this: Israel/Palestine, Saudi Arabia, etc., They don't want to take over the west, they just want to the west out of their countries. I don't agree with their views on how the world should work, but they have a lot of legitimate grievances, and until those are addressed, than nothing will change

[rebs23]

Eanna totally agree with you about genuine grievances in relation to palestine and other areas but by all accounts this is Al Quieda respnsible for this. Their stated aim is an islamic jihad ie. a religous revoution against christian democracy etc. our way of life especially they way we give rights to all individuals regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation etc is an afront to them. Our society as they see it is decadent and they will only be able to have their Jihad by creating racist and religous tensions in the west causing terror etc. It does not matter to them where the Americans or the Brits are in the world they would still target them.
It is widely believed that one of the reason the twin towers was targetted was because it was a symbol of all they hated in the west, a place where all races and religions mixed and cohabited etc. The mixing of Muslims in places like New York, London etc is also a threat to their beliefs.

Now if it was some group trying to make some point about Palestine or Iraq well then that is a completely different kettle of fish.
These terrorists are the modern day fascists and must be opposed just like we did against Hitler, Stalin etc etc.
No Platform for Fascists used to be the slogan of AFA years ago and when it comes to these fundamentalists the same approach should be taken.

[Éanna]

Eanna totally agree with you about genuine grievances in relation to palestine and other areas but by all accounts this is Al Quieda respnsible for this. Their stated aim is an islamic jihad ie. a religous revoution against christian democracy etc. our way of life especially they way we give rights to all individuals regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation etc is an afront to them. Our society as they see it is decadent and they will only be able to have their Jihad by creating racist and religous tensions in the west causing terror etc. It does not matter to them where the Americans or the Brits are in the world they would still target them.
It is widely believed that one of the reason the twin towers was targetted was because it was a symbol of all they hated in the west, a place where all races and religions mixed and cohabited etc. The mixing of Muslims in places like New York, London etc is also a threat to their beliefs.

Now if it was some group trying to make some point about Palestine or Iraq well then that is a completely different kettle of fish.
These terrorists are the modern day fascists and must be opposed just like we did against Hitler, Stalin etc etc.
No Platform for Fascists used to be the slogan of AFA years ago and when it comes to these fundamentalists the same approach should be taken.

Do you seriously think that they intend taking over the west? Basically, they're racists who think that their way of life is better and want all western influence out of their countries. The bottom line is this: as long as there are situations like Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia etc., ordinary people in the "arab street" will support the actions of Al Qaeda. If you neutralise these problems, you destroy their support and thus their chances of doing anything.

[Closed Account 2]

Do you seriously think that they intend taking over the west?

Well, both Abu Hamza and Al-Muhajiroun (a UK militant Islamic group lead by Omar Bakri) have stated their desire to impose Sharia Law in the UK. That is the law that re-imposes dhimmitude (non-Muslims having a lower legal status and having to pay a specific non-Muslim tax), stones women to death, and beheads gay people, by the way. Many people could view that as in effect wanting to take over the West.

Fundamentalist groups like the above tend to view the world in two terms, the Dar-al-Islam (literally meaning the lands of submission) but in real terms the Islamic world, and the Dar al-Harb (literally meaning the "lands of war"). While they desire to reinforce what they perceive as Islamic values in the Dar-al-Islam, they also want to spread Islamic (again what they percieve as Islamic) ideals in the Dar-al-Harb.

Also their definitions of what is in the Dar-al-Islam and the Dar-al-Harb tend to differ from what one might expect. It can be that the Dar-al-Islam is made up of countries governed by Muslims and the Dar-al-HArb is governed by non Muslims. But some fundamentalist take it more from history, for some Spain is considered to be in the Dar-al-Islam, as historically it was at one point part of a Muslim Empire, similarly the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Southern Russia, Eastern China, Southern Thailand etc.

So there is, in my opinion, a certain degree of wanting to take over the West on the part of fundamentalists.

[dcfcsteve]

You come into a country you abide by the laws of the country and try to integrate.

Indeed, but vast numbers of people from all parts of the world don't. Plenty of people from both the UK and outside of it don't abide by the country's laws to at least some extent. So what's your answer - extradite them all ?

As for integration - for decades the Irish in London pretty much kept to themselves and hung out in exclusively Irish bars and clubs (there's a number of books available on this subject if you don't appreciate the degree of separation that occured). So the Irish are therefore bad people ? I live in an area of 40,000 Portuguese people in South London where I hear Portuguese spoken as often as English, and everyone hangs out in Portugues restaurants and coffee shops. The local schools have to employ Portuguese speakers, as otherwise they can't communicate with the parents. I've even met young people here who don't speak English. How dare they all not just integrate and walk around wearing bowler hats and cricket whites, drinking tea and cucumber sandwiches whilst whistling God Save the Queen...! So what's your answer then to the reality of life that integration takes GENERATIONS to occur ? What should we do in the meantime - shoot/jail/extradite everyone who doesn't instantly become English ??

[QUOTE=Condex] Thought I loathe the IRA cant remember them bombing trains or buses and deliberatly targeting civilians. {/QUOTE]
So what were the bombs in Bishopsgate, Manchester, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham etc etc etc all about ? Yoi can't put bombs in busy public places and not expect to kill civilians. Reagrdless - the views you've been expressing on here are bordering on the extreme (kicking people out etc), and mirror the very same views against the Irish that were churned up with IRA atrocities - regardless of whether civilians were involved.

I was in Mikes bar and did know that British Muslim blew the place up. There are plenty of young British Muslims being radicalised by the preaching of foreign immans (there are few British born immans).

2 British citizens were involved in that incident, so now you know. Just like British citizens have been involved in incidents in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. You can blame outsiders for coming in and polluting their minds if you want, but in the information age when they're much more likely to read and nurture extremist views on the web and through literature, I think you're being rather simplistic. As for the origin of Imans - regardless of where they come from, the overwhelming majority of them in this country abhorr what happened on Thursday, and said so at yesterday's prayer services. But sure we should just boot-out all the foreign ones out as they're all the same.....

And as for repatriation Britain has given asylum/indefinte leave to remain to several Islamic extermists (where do you think the term Londonistan comes from). Can't extradite others because it would infringe their human rights, what about our human rights..

I'm aware of one extremist who has been difficult for the country ro remove (Abu Hamza - the guy with the hook). There may well be others, but not that I'm aware of. With regards extradition - the law is very clear on what weight of evidence is required to do this. It is up to the authorities to therefore satisfy the law - and thereby remove any doubt - before it can start shipping people out. That is reasonable, and strikes a balance between human rights and the introduction of a police state. If someone is an extremist, then prove it to the satifaction of the courts and they'll be bucked out. It's very simple...

As for Londonistan - what does that little heard name prove then ? It's just a makey-uppy phrase that will be humorous to Pakistani's etc. It's no different than towns in the US being given Irishy nicknames etc. I'm surprised you can type with that many straws clutched in your hands.....

[Éanna]

Eanna, how dare you? What part of that post was rubbish?
Unlike yourself and most other people on here spouting off, I have actually worked in Iraq.
I've lived, embedded with Coalition forces, and I've seen first hand what is going on out there.
I've spoke to people who have seen death and destruction close up and my opinions are shaped by what they have told me and by what I saw myself in Iraq.
I was just making the point that it is an unwinnable war. Do you think Islamic fundamentalists don't have a problem with Dublin being a haven for American and British tourists?
It's not about Bush and Blair. Leaders will change, but these lunatics aren't going away.

Let me put it to you this way- anyone who uses the word liberal as an insult/put-down (which you did in your post) is not worth listening to IMO.

[Éanna]

I'm a TV reporter pal. I just do a job and give people the information and let them make up their own minds.
How are things on your Dublin barstool today?

Dublin? If you're a TV reporter, well then that's different, but your comment was that you had worked in Iraq, and I wasn't to know it was as a reporter- for that, you have my apologies. I've edited my post, the rest stands though

[Condex]

There are loads of people working in Iraq who aren't in the military. I met nurses from all over the world who are just trying to help.
The reason I had a pop at liberals in the UK is because I am sick to the back teeth of hearing them rattle on about the police here.
The only reason London hasn't been hit before now by Al-Qaeda is the hard work of the police and the intelligence services.
I am also sick of sitting in court cases and seeing people who have been found with explosives, etc, getting lenient sentences.
It's time to start standing up and speaking out.
I'm getting this off my chest here because I don't get the chance to professionally.

Hear, hear!!!

[liam88]

There are loads of people working in Iraq who aren't in the military. I met nurses from all over the world who are just trying to help.
The reason I had a pop at liberals in the UK is because I am sick to the back teeth of hearing them rattle on about the police here.
The only reason London hasn't been hit before now by Al-Qaeda is the hard work of the police and the intelligence services.
I am also sick of sitting in court cases and seeing people who have been found with explosives, etc, getting lenient sentences.
It's time to start standing up and speaking out.
I'm getting this off my chest here because I don't get the chance to professionally.

Mate I'm with you 100%. Eanna a lot of people are angry/upset about Thursday so it's understandable that a lot of very open and emotional opinions are going to be posted-it's rediculous to bin posts you don't like just because you disagree with them and you ahve the power to do so.

[Éanna]

Mate I'm with you 100%. Eanna a lot of people are angry/upset about Thursday so it's understandable that a lot of very open and emotional opinions are going to be posted-it's rediculous to bin posts you don't like just because you disagree with them and you ahve the power to do so.

its indeed understandable, I was quite upset about it myself. And I've PMed you re your accusation, I suggest you think again

[dahamsta]

You were warned children. Find another site to discuss this subject. Any further discussion will be binned.

adam