Brilliant post Macy, absolutely spot on.Originally Posted by Macy
Agree with most of the things you say..Originally Posted by mypost
Brilliant post Macy, absolutely spot on.Originally Posted by Macy
Absolute and utter rubbish. Blair and Bush are the reason that these murderers have support. You have to ask yourself why they are doing this- if you don't, you're just as guilty as Blair and Bush.Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
It seems to have stemmed from in house British muslims.... 5th columnists if you wish to use a term from another bygone era.
As regards ID Cards our government is not necessarily 100% in agreement with them but they argue if the GB government brings them in because of our free travel arrangements with them we will have to. I still don't see what the problem people have with ID Cards is.
The German authorities have them in the Democratic Bundesrepublik and Germany is still very much a model democracy by European standards almost all of the other 25 EU member states have them ourselves and the Brits being the only exception to my knowledge. In Germany it is an offense not carry some form of ID if not an ID card then something like a driver's licence must be produced. Failure to do so land one in jail. Besides if you get injured or killed in a terrorist attack an ID card can help identify you for your relatives... assuming of course it isn't burnt to a frazzle or melted during the attack.
Germany also has an electoral system that guarantees anyone who fails to get 5% of the national ballot WILL NOT GET A SEAT. This was a reaction to the system know as the Weimar Republic where anyone could get elected and this electoral system led to so many small disparate parties and independents getting elected which eventually paved the way for Nazi's to get ELECTED that is correct ELECTED into office. Small undemocratic groupings like neo-Nazis and Proto-communists are banned which is protecting the democratic regime.
The Germans have learned the lessons of history very well and are determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
ID Cards might actually protect the security of the nation and is a small price to pay for having a democratic state.
Last edited by CollegeTillIDie; 09/07/2005 at 10:59 AM.
But they aren't just one group liam, thats the problem. There are a great many pople out there in the world who support the actions of these groups because of what they see as the west attacking them- e.g. Iraq. If you take away these issues, their support base would collapse. Shedite was spot on, Blair is just as responsible for this as the people who did it- he should be tried for treason. As for the name-calling, well thats just childish at best Its like saying that every Irish nationalist/republican is a murderer. Like it or not, these people do have reasons for doing what they did. They are wrong, misguided, misled etc etc., but they are being given a reason to do this by Bush and blairOriginally Posted by liam88
Is dropping bombs on an apartment block in baghdad getting rid of Saddam? Is shooting a kid for throwing a stone going to defeat Hamas? Its the same problem.Originally Posted by liam88
Racists will always take advantage of these situations to show their true colours.Originally Posted by liam88
So Blair and Bush did nothing which made this more likely?Originally Posted by liam88
And sure why don't they kick all the catholic priests out as well in case they're supporting the IRA Have you joined the BNP yet?Originally Posted by Condex
Not a bad idea!!!Originally Posted by Éanna
Sorry Eanna but these people are around longer than Bush and Blair. Jihad and all that, a religous revolution where the decadent west as they see it will be overthrown and replaced with an Islamic Fundamentalist Heaven similar to the one they tried to create in Afghanistan with no rights for those decadent women, gays, lefties, capitalists etcOriginally Posted by Éanna
Cork City FC
Of course they've been around longer than that, but its not just Bush and Blair- you can go back further and see the causes of this: Israel/Palestine, Saudi Arabia, etc., They don't want to take over the west, they just want to the west out of their countries. I don't agree with their views on how the world should work, but they have a lot of legitimate grievances, and until those are addressed, than nothing will changeOriginally Posted by rebs23
Eanna totally agree with you about genuine grievances in relation to palestine and other areas but by all accounts this is Al Quieda respnsible for this. Their stated aim is an islamic jihad ie. a religous revoution against christian democracy etc. our way of life especially they way we give rights to all individuals regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation etc is an afront to them. Our society as they see it is decadent and they will only be able to have their Jihad by creating racist and religous tensions in the west causing terror etc. It does not matter to them where the Americans or the Brits are in the world they would still target them.
It is widely believed that one of the reason the twin towers was targetted was because it was a symbol of all they hated in the west, a place where all races and religions mixed and cohabited etc. The mixing of Muslims in places like New York, London etc is also a threat to their beliefs.
Now if it was some group trying to make some point about Palestine or Iraq well then that is a completely different kettle of fish.
These terrorists are the modern day fascists and must be opposed just like we did against Hitler, Stalin etc etc.
No Platform for Fascists used to be the slogan of AFA years ago and when it comes to these fundamentalists the same approach should be taken.
Cork City FC
Do you seriously think that they intend taking over the west? Basically, they're racists who think that their way of life is better and want all western influence out of their countries. The bottom line is this: as long as there are situations like Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia etc., ordinary people in the "arab street" will support the actions of Al Qaeda. If you neutralise these problems, you destroy their support and thus their chances of doing anything.Originally Posted by rebs23
Well, both Abu Hamza and Al-Muhajiroun (a UK militant Islamic group lead by Omar Bakri) have stated their desire to impose Sharia Law in the UK. That is the law that re-imposes dhimmitude (non-Muslims having a lower legal status and having to pay a specific non-Muslim tax), stones women to death, and beheads gay people, by the way. Many people could view that as in effect wanting to take over the West.Originally Posted by Éanna
Fundamentalist groups like the above tend to view the world in two terms, the Dar-al-Islam (literally meaning the lands of submission) but in real terms the Islamic world, and the Dar al-Harb (literally meaning the "lands of war"). While they desire to reinforce what they perceive as Islamic values in the Dar-al-Islam, they also want to spread Islamic (again what they percieve as Islamic) ideals in the Dar-al-Harb.
Also their definitions of what is in the Dar-al-Islam and the Dar-al-Harb tend to differ from what one might expect. It can be that the Dar-al-Islam is made up of countries governed by Muslims and the Dar-al-HArb is governed by non Muslims. But some fundamentalist take it more from history, for some Spain is considered to be in the Dar-al-Islam, as historically it was at one point part of a Muslim Empire, similarly the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Southern Russia, Eastern China, Southern Thailand etc.
So there is, in my opinion, a certain degree of wanting to take over the West on the part of fundamentalists.
Indeed, but vast numbers of people from all parts of the world don't. Plenty of people from both the UK and outside of it don't abide by the country's laws to at least some extent. So what's your answer - extradite them all ?Originally Posted by Condex
As for integration - for decades the Irish in London pretty much kept to themselves and hung out in exclusively Irish bars and clubs (there's a number of books available on this subject if you don't appreciate the degree of separation that occured). So the Irish are therefore bad people ? I live in an area of 40,000 Portuguese people in South London where I hear Portuguese spoken as often as English, and everyone hangs out in Portugues restaurants and coffee shops. The local schools have to employ Portuguese speakers, as otherwise they can't communicate with the parents. I've even met young people here who don't speak English. How dare they all not just integrate and walk around wearing bowler hats and cricket whites, drinking tea and cucumber sandwiches whilst whistling God Save the Queen...! So what's your answer then to the reality of life that integration takes GENERATIONS to occur ? What should we do in the meantime - shoot/jail/extradite everyone who doesn't instantly become English ??
[QUOTE=Condex] Thought I loathe the IRA cant remember them bombing trains or buses and deliberatly targeting civilians. {/QUOTE]
So what were the bombs in Bishopsgate, Manchester, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham etc etc etc all about ? Yoi can't put bombs in busy public places and not expect to kill civilians. Reagrdless - the views you've been expressing on here are bordering on the extreme (kicking people out etc), and mirror the very same views against the Irish that were churned up with IRA atrocities - regardless of whether civilians were involved.
2 British citizens were involved in that incident, so now you know. Just like British citizens have been involved in incidents in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. You can blame outsiders for coming in and polluting their minds if you want, but in the information age when they're much more likely to read and nurture extremist views on the web and through literature, I think you're being rather simplistic. As for the origin of Imans - regardless of where they come from, the overwhelming majority of them in this country abhorr what happened on Thursday, and said so at yesterday's prayer services. But sure we should just boot-out all the foreign ones out as they're all the same.....Originally Posted by Condex
I'm aware of one extremist who has been difficult for the country ro remove (Abu Hamza - the guy with the hook). There may well be others, but not that I'm aware of. With regards extradition - the law is very clear on what weight of evidence is required to do this. It is up to the authorities to therefore satisfy the law - and thereby remove any doubt - before it can start shipping people out. That is reasonable, and strikes a balance between human rights and the introduction of a police state. If someone is an extremist, then prove it to the satifaction of the courts and they'll be bucked out. It's very simple...And as for repatriation Britain has given asylum/indefinte leave to remain to several Islamic extermists (where do you think the term Londonistan comes from). Can't extradite others because it would infringe their human rights, what about our human rights..
As for Londonistan - what does that little heard name prove then ? It's just a makey-uppy phrase that will be humorous to Pakistani's etc. It's no different than towns in the US being given Irishy nicknames etc. I'm surprised you can type with that many straws clutched in your hands.....
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 09/07/2005 at 1:54 PM.
Let me put it to you this way- anyone who uses the word liberal as an insult/put-down (which you did in your post) is not worth listening to IMO.Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Last edited by Éanna; 09/07/2005 at 2:15 PM.
Dublin? If you're a TV reporter, well then that's different, but your comment was that you had worked in Iraq, and I wasn't to know it was as a reporter- for that, you have my apologies. I've edited my post, the rest stands thoughOriginally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Hear, hear!!!Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Mate I'm with you 100%. Eanna a lot of people are angry/upset about Thursday so it's understandable that a lot of very open and emotional opinions are going to be posted-it's rediculous to bin posts you don't like just because you disagree with them and you ahve the power to do so.Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Long live the Pope! Free Burma (NLD/SNLD), Free Tibet (Burma Campaign/Free Tibet Campaign Alliance), Free the Rossport 5! (ACCOMPLISHED 30/09/05)
BOYCOTT TOTAL OIL-Please Read!
its indeed understandable, I was quite upset about it myself. And I've PMed you re your accusation, I suggest you think againOriginally Posted by liam88
You were warned children. Find another site to discuss this subject. Any further discussion will be binned.
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