Originally Posted by rebs23
That looks like putting words in his mouth to me.
How can anyone say Tony Blair is responsible,you'd think he wanted this to happen
That looks like putting words in his mouth to me.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
What Schumi said rebs23. You're only codding yourself with this righteous indignation, no-one else is fooled by it. That question was facetious and purely intended to make your point - badly - not query shedites. That's unless you seriously think any regular on this board thinks the bombings in London were justified. In which case you should see a shrink.
Do us all a favour man, pipe down.
adam
Hear hear
I wouldn't go as far as shedite, and I think it's silly of anyone to suggest that Blair wanted it to happen (or suggest that other people are suggesting it, cough cough), but I think it's equally silly to suggest that he doesn't shoulder a large part of the blame. I don't see how anyone could seriously believe that these attacks would have been just as likely if Blair hadn't joined the "war on terror"*?How can anyone say Tony Blair is responsible
adam
[size=1]* Yes, it's in quotes. Sorry, it's not a war.[/size]
That's a bit general Tuff Paddy, could you be more specific? I consider myself somewhat of a liberal and I've been critical of some of Blair's decisions, particularly his decision to go to war in Iraq without telling the public, the oppposition or even his own government the truth about why. Am I whinging? Should I hang my head in shame?
adam
OK adam you have threatened to ban me already so please go ahead if you cannot take someone with opinions other than your own. To suggest that Blair had it coming is utterly appalling. As for seeing a shrink, codding myself and piping down well again I am not going down the road of personal abuse, I just want to make a point the post was appalling and that I am fed up with the sort of view that fundamentalism needs to be understood and we are partly responsible in the west for islamic extremism. Sometimes there comes a time to resist facism and intolerance in all it's forms. For me these people are the modern day facists.
Cork City FC
One of the many lessons of history is that you cannot defeat terrorism - regardless of its motives - militaristically. In fact - attempting to do so usually just fuels the hatred (e.g. the Iraq War). For terrorism to succeed it only requires a small number of active volunteers - but more importantly it needs a much bigger support base, who finance, house and protect the terrorists and aloow them to blend-in with everyone else in society. The way to expose and isolate terrorism is therefore to remove that support base. The way to do that is to address the issues that lead people to provide such active or passive support for the terrorists in the first place. In the case of the Middle East, the Arab-Israeli conflict is the single biggest sore that is fuelling Islamic terrorism. Tackle that situation successfully and you go a long way towards removing much of the support-base for Islamic fundamentalism. The terrorists can use such a widespread grievance as the Arab-Israeli struggle (not how the message released yesterday referedde to "the Ziionist British government") to attract support to, and cloak, their darker motives.
Sadly, however - incidents like the London bombings usually just bring out the cowboy/tough-guy in politicians, as most exemplified by the attitude of Bush.
What efforts are you talking about here Tuff Paddy ? Identity cards - that will cost over £8bn to the country to introduce, cost individuals £300 a head and STILL won't make a jot of difference towards terrorist activity (show me a form of ID in the world that can't be successfully counter-feited?). Or do you mean the desire to intern without trial - similar to Gunatanomo ? A policy that when introduced in Northern Ireland fuelled the conflict there by years. Which efforts to make the country safe are you complaining about here ? There's usually good reasons why illiberal policies get rejected by opposition parties (not just Liberals), backbenchers, the House of Lords, Civil Liberty groups, and in some cases even the police themselves. I suspect you've been bending an uncritical ear towards Blair/Blunkett/Clarke a bit too much recently...
Don't try the "stifling my free speech" crap on me either rebs23, I threatened to ban you if you continue to use disingenuous and dishonest debating techniques, nothing more. You'd be better advised to concentrate on my invitation to take those insidious techniques to another website, where more gullible people won't see them for what they are. Alternatively you can tone down the rhetoric and righteous indignation and get on with debating the subject reasonably.
adam
At a time when even "hardline" supporters of the war in Iraq were beginning to question the logic of the occupation of Iraq, the bombers have once again strengthened the resolve of these people who, only days ago, were desparately clambering to find a "reason" for being there. The bombers have actually set their "cause" back quite a bit. The "hawks" will be running around today telling people "do you see why we're there NOW?".
I have to agree with Steve. The only way to stop terrorism is to take away its reason to be.
I'm with rebs23 and Tuff Paddy on this one-no matter what you think of Blair, the UK, America or whatever else only one group of "people" were responsible for yesterday-the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists (I know they are in many groups). These people are insane. They are sick, evil pathetic excuses for human beings.
1) Blowing up buses and tubes full of people is not attacking the government or ideologies. There could/would have been anti war people killed along with Muslims, Irish, Germans, Greeks, Polish....bombs don't go "that person is pro-war we will kill them, that person is anti-war they can live", they kill, cripple and maim anyone unfortunate enoguh to be that close.
2) They have done Muslims in Britain NO favours. I know people who were totally anti-war before yesterday. One lad would argue tooth and nail against the war, protested against it, everything-now he is all for it. On top of this people will vent their anger on Muslims. I wouldn't matter if they got the people who did it/condone it but they won't-they'll get the innocent Muslims. Talking to some mates from Birmingham the other day (before the attacks) and they were saying Mosques in Birmingham were petrol bombed in the wake of 9/11.......so what is going to happen now it is on our doorstep! Yesterdays actions give BNP/NF/Combat 18 loads of ammo......even people who arn't Muslim but look arab (like my dad) will get abuse/violence.
It's a f*cking disgrace that is no one's fault but the Irslamic fundamendalist terrorists. I hope they rot in hell.
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Sadly this is what the terrorists want. They need to portray their struggle as one of 'Islam v the West', rather than purely one of religious zeal, and the Western governments play into their hands every single time.
All this talk now of "we'll never let them win". Our efforts to stop them winning actually ensure that they DO win. Starting wars on tenuous grounds, imprisoning people indefinitely with no evidence, restricting civil liberties in our own country etc - these are simply own goals that reduce our quality of life whilst creating fertile ground in which Islamic fundamentalism can grow in the shade of an "us vs them" struggle.
And now a few meatheads in Yorkshire/Lancashire will doubtless conduct a few rascist 'revenge' attacks against Mulsims, and further fuel the whole 'them vs us' situation.
It's all so very, very wrong. And for me where it went most wrong was the Iraq War. History will show that to have been the single biggest Foreign Policy feck-up since the Second World War (yes - bigger than Vietnam) - as it reinforced stereotypes on both sides and created a new Islamic cause celebre. Things won't be the same after Iraq for literally decades....
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 08/07/2005 at 6:11 PM.
How true is this? It's been repeated so often by various leaders - in particular Bush and Blair - that it's in danger of becoming a truism. The people behind these atrocities have never claimed such a stance (publicly, at least). Instead, they point out that they are doing what they are doing in direct protest to the likes of the US backing of Israel and Saudi Arabia, its supporting of dictatorships and interfering in politics in the Muslim world to its own end (Hussein being the obvious example; it happens elsewhere as wel, of course, but the terrorists are only sticking up for their own, if I may use a phrase which so humanises them). Yet any protests on their part (here I refer to the broad populace in general, not to the terrorists in specific) are cut down by the US-controlled puppet that is the UN, and if that fails, sure the US can just invade, overthrow another leader and insert a puppet of their own, who will allow the US to rape and pillage the country's natural resources (oil being the main example), dump their surplus products (meaning the local farmers can't compete on price and can't sell their product) and to contract US companies whenever major work is required (meaning, again, the US economy profits at the expense of the local economy.)
Is it any wonder that these people get hugely p!ssed off at the US (and its allies; it is quite clear that Spain and Britain were targeted because of their support for the Iraq war and US policy in general)? Is it any wonder that some feel the only way they will be listened to is through acts such as this? If a kid isn't being listened to, he throws a strop - that's what this is, at a much bloodier and more serious level.
I don't think they hate the West, our freedom and all that other propogandical rhetoric. I think they feel WE hate THEM, that we can't stand their culture and can't abide by their incredible policy of wanting to help their own people before filling US corporations' pockets.
I think to believe anything else is just to kid ourselves as to where the real problem lies. Or at least, to kid ourselves that some of the problem lies with us.
There is a problem as to where the political leaders should go from here. (I use the conditional tense because I know there is no way in hell they are ging to have a sudden U-turn and start ruling in anything othre than a corrupt manner). They can't keep going the way they are going, or else the attacks are going to keep coming. The logical conclusion of repeated attacks is a World War - precisely the event the UN was designed to prevent, and yet precisely the event the UN - through the US - is leading us towards. Yet they can't turn around and suddenly change everything, or else terrorism has won, and the next time somebody wants to change something, they'll just blow a building up and expect to get what they want. Ultimate Catch 22.
Realistically, change has to be made towards a fairer word, but not so that it is seen to be linked to terrorism. The only way to do this is to make the change, but deny that it is being made. Were this to happen, it would mean that politicians would, of necessity, be telling untruths I'm going to avoid calling them lies, as they would be necessary.) Conclusion - ignore politicians; spend your time on something else. And thank me for giving you a few minutes' extra time every day! (Sorry 'bout that, but black humour is always the best way of getting over things like this...)
Or am I completely mad?
I live in London and this lot won't stop me travelling on buses or the underground, the same as when I travelled on public transport in Israel earlier this year.
What the Blair government has to do is stop every loony imman/fanatics in the Muslim world taking up resisdence in this country and indoctrinating young muslims... Pack them off back to where they came from...
Well said Condex, I admire that attitude and I hope a huge majority of Londoners will stick two fingers up to these pathetic, impotent, clueless morons and do the same thing.
adam
How do you propose doing this then Condex ? Long interrogations at passport control : "You - funny looking foreign man with the beard. Come 'ere ! Are you by any chance an Islamic fundamentalist ? No - ok, in you come sir.....".
As if likely terrorists come in making it clear that they're fundamentalist extremists ! Please.... . At least with the openly fundamentalist ones you know who they are and can put them under surveillance. The ones with genuinely bad intent will just enter the country peacably, keep their heads down, live as perfect neighbours, and then one day head off with a backpack on their shoulder, never to be seen again..
And as for "pack them off to where they came from". Ignoring the fact that sentiments like that mirror precisely the anti-Irish rhetoric that used to get stirred-up in Britain after IRA attacks, let's not pretend that there aren't any home-grown extremists in the UK. British citizens are just as likely to be recruiters of young Muslims into Islamic terrorism. Even if they're not - there's plenty of internet sites, books etc that will do the job. You were in Israel for the Ireland game, and doubtless visited Mike's Bar on the seafront ? You may be surprised to know that the suicide bombing on there 2 years ago was conducted by 2 British citizens. It's just as likely that the people invoilved in yesterday's bombings in London were English/British born, or inspired by English/British born 'leaders'. Where exactly should those natives be packed off to then.....?
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 08/07/2005 at 11:50 PM.
Would have to agree with most of what Pinapple Stu said - but all that arises is the $64,000,000 question - how do you negociate with terrorism? Any grivences these people have pale into insignificance when they alienate themselves from the civilised world by carring out acts of violence such as these - and dont forget these types of attacks are not just being carried out in London yesterday, 9/11 and Madrid - but daily in Iraq as people who may or may not ( I am no expert on middle east politics) have genuine grivances try to bomb and sacrifice thier way to what they want. i am one of the few here and elsewhere who think it was correct to get rid of dictatorships in places like Afganistan and Iraq - however there will always be people with fundamental ideas and few morals.
The only way in my opinion to deal with this is to do so collectivly. All people that live in the western world should look out for each other - be vigilant - if you see someone acting supiciously on a bus or a train etc then alert each other. Be patient when at airports etc and ensure everything possible is done to create a safe environment. Do what Babysis and Condex did this morning and get back on the train, tube and bus - send out a message to these people that the civilised world will not submit to terrorists and thier methods. I think all types of protection that is available and neccessary are vital - if ID cards work - then that is what should be done. Whatever it takes should be done. People power is a great thing - as seen in the last week with the concerts for G8 etc - its power can be overwhelming and people can prevail if we all work together to eliminate this scourge from society then its possible to do it. Its Good v Evil. And good people have to work together to overcome the people who perpetrate these evil acts - otherwise are were all doomed eventually?
I don't think the Terrorists have released any specific demands (withdrawal from Iraq?) so how can me know why they've done it.
Just like Bloody Sunday & Internment in NI, Iraq must be big recruitment aid for Islamic Fundamentalists.
I think this is likely to make the UK more resolved in Iraq. Will be interesting to see what the response from Denmark & Italy is as they've essentially been openly threatened.
Probably!
It doesn't take an Einstein to work out who was responsible for the London attacks, - a group of British-based Muslims. After all, who else would have the capability, or desire to carry out such acts? The sad thing is that people who showed outrage at the bombers, are the same people who stand up to defend their human rights, and protest against the foreign policies of the USA and other countries in other regions in the world, which are designed to prevent, rather than incite such wicked acts of barbarism. Terrorist suspects are rounded up, funding for their groups is cut, oppressive regimes are changed, and security around the world is tightened, so that massacres like that seen in London, are only rare setbacks rather than the norm. It's also one of the reasons why the USA has been an impregnable fortress to terrorists since the attacks in New York.
The attacks in London happened for three reasons. One is the non-existent justice system regarding terrorism suspects in the UK. Refugees from around the world come there, having not been vetted by the British security forces. These people get instant access to the benefits from the British welfare system, and can easily form cliques and groups to fund their programmes. It doesn't happen overnight. Once they enter the country, the police don't know who or where they are, and despite the fact that every phone call, text message, and e-mail from the UK is monitored by their security services, these groups can still plot their attacks easily. If they are arrested by the police, they are put on trial, where any sentence is usually light, and can be appealed. Look at Abu Hamza. He was always a nuisance. Despite this, he was allowed to spite vitriolic sermons against the West weekly, in London's streets, which only recruits new followers to their cause. He was arrested, and is asking for free legal aid to defend himself during his trial. America is still waiting to have him extradited.
Public transport is always a vulnerable target for terrorism. You simply can't have security checks at every train station, and bus stop. It is practically and logistically impossible. London was another impregnable fortress since the New York attacks, but had it's police force severely depleted, as many officers had to police the G8 summit in Edinburgh. There was a window of opportunity for terrorists, and unfortunately, they took advantage of it. They detest our free society, then ironically take advantage of it, to launch acts of barbarism against civilized people.
It must be emphasised, that whatever their statements claim, the atrocities had nothing to do with the situation in Iraq or other countries. If it was, then Muslims would be spared. It was an attack by British-based Islamic fundamentalists, because they hate our Western culture, lifestyles, and society. We live in a democratic society, which is tolerant of other peoples, religions, lifestyles, and allows for free speech. On the other hand, the Arab culture is the exact opposite. There are despots, one-party states, murderous dictatorships, Shariah laws, alcohol bans, unequal, and in some countries appalling treatment of women.
Take the school laws in France for example. Muslim girls are not allowed to wear veils in schools, and whinge. Tough. If they don't like it, they should move to a more "friendly" Muslim country that respects their beliefs, like Iran. When Christian women go to Iran, they must obey strict Islamic law, which states that they may not be seen without veils in public. I'm sure they don't like it, but it's the law there, and it must be respected. That's the kind of culture that Islamic fundamentalists wish to impose on Westerners. It simply won't happen. Period. their actions in Western countries are ultimately fruitless.
Islamic fundamentalists were attacking America and other Western countries for years, before the New York atrocities. Then they had an Islamic state in Afghanistan, and a vulgar, merciless tyrant running Iraq. Now both countries are democratic. Their actions have merely resulted on our culture coming to their countries, rather than the reverse. That's what happens when you mess with Westerners. You pay for it. We are not weak, and we will respond to the actions of terrorists in our own way. After each attack on us, you will end up losing a lot more than we do.
PS. What is the point of having a thread like this, when posters are threatened with bans? This thread, and similiar threads are political, and are likely to have "flame wars" at some point. That should have been realized when the thread originally started.
You come into a country you abide by the laws of the country and try to integrate.
Thought I loathe the IRA cant remember them bombing trains or buses and deliberatly targeting civilians.
I was in Mikes bar and did know that British Muslim blew the place up. There are plenty of young British Muslims being radicalised by the preaching of foreign immans (there are few British born immans).
And as for repatriation Britain has given asylum/indefinte leave to remain to several Islamic extermists (where do you think the term Londonistan comes from). Can't extradite others because it would infringe their human rights, what about our human rights..
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