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Thread: Anti-vaxxers

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    How many are in hospital beds exactly? More hospital beds can be set up if required.


    That’s not going to happen, that’s just a conspiracy theory, if those at risk just take the shot all will be fine.

    No he doesn’t, and I don’t think it’s anyone else’s business weather he takes it or not, if you are worried about him not being vaccinated then get yourself vaccinated today to solve the problem.
    The HSE release that information every day - https://covid-19.geohive.ie/pages/ho...s-icu--testing
    There's 354 currently being treated for COVID in hospitals in Ireland, 69 of these are in ICU. Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCWA View Post
    Apologies, will delete above if preferred.

    Moving on, hopefully Cal can put in a big performance give our chances in these qualifiers a shot in the arm!
    I object to this post being moved to current affairs. It is as regards Callum Robinson putting in a performance in upcoming Ireland games. Lazy moderation.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    69 ICU beds is out of total capacity of 280 by the way. One quarter of ICU beds are occupied by covid sufferers, the majority of whom are unvaccinated. But hey, not like anyone else needs them.

    Also, the suggestion that viruses mutate is "just a conspiracy theory" tells you all you need to know about CSAD's ability to contribute sensibly to the topic.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 07/10/2021 at 3:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    The HSE release that information every day - https://covid-19.geohive.ie/pages/ho...s-icu--testing
    There's 354 currently being treated for COVID in hospitals in Ireland, 69 of these are in ICU. Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.
    Well im sure the government & HSE can find a way of accommodating those who need beds.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    69 ICU beds is out of total capacity of 280 by the way. One quarter of ICU beds are occupied by covid sufferers, the majority of whom are unvaccinated. But hey, not like anyone else needs them.

    Also, the suggestion that viruses mutate is "just a conspiracy theory" tells you all you need to know about CSAD's ability to contribute sensibly to the topic.
    That sounds like the HSE/Governments problem/fault. They should have prepared better for the situation, we are ofcourse in a super deadly pandemic so surely they should have spent time preparing extra beds like other countries did.

    The virus mutation excuse is the equivalent of the dog ate my homework excuse, just more moving the goalposts.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 08/10/2021 at 12:03 PM.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    The virus mutation is not the equivalent of the dog ate my homework. It's very real. It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant. Which, in a not coincidence at all, arose in some of the countries with the worst response to covid.

    Virus mutation is quite literally evolution in action. It is not possible to deny evolution by claiming that your dog ate your homework.

    The HSE cannot have beds on standby for the chance of a pandemic and the chance that idiots will refuse a vaccine for said pandemic.

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    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    Saying i am not taking the vaccine is as close as you will ever get to standing in the middle of the road with a sign saying "i am a Gob****e".
    Conspiracy theory idiots , the moon landing was faked , Elvis is still alive, Vaccines don't mutate (even though all credible medical scientists would say they do).
    If it wasn't for the Hippocratic oath the docs would be justified in turning unvaccinated people away from Hospital (unless they had a credible medical reason for not taking the vaccine.....credible to the Docs not themselves). It would fulfil Darwins evolution theory by removing the lower iq elements form the human gene pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    The virus mutation is not the equivalent of the dog ate my homework. It's very real. It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant. Which, in a not coincidence at all, arose in some of the countries with the worst response to covid.

    Virus mutation is quite literally evolution in action. It is not possible to deny evolution by claiming that your dog ate your homework.

    The HSE cannot have beds on standby for the chance of a pandemic and the chance that idiots will refuse a vaccine for said pandemic.
    “It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant.“

    Oh give us a break, it’s the same ****ing virus, giving it a new name doesn’t change jack****.
    Can you explain why the excess death rate is no different to a normal year then in Ireland and the vast majority of European countries?

    If that’s the case the vaccine is pointless anyway so therefore we shouldn’t be forcing or coercing people to take it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Saying i am not taking the vaccine is as close as you will ever get to standing in the middle of the road with a sign saying "i am a Gob****e".
    Conspiracy theory idiots , the moon landing was faked , Elvis is still alive, Vaccines don't mutate (even though all credible medical scientists would say they do).
    If it wasn't for the Hippocratic oath the docs would be justified in turning unvaccinated people away from Hospital (unless they had a credible medical reason for not taking the vaccine.....credible to the Docs not themselves). It would fulfil Darwins evolution theory by removing the lower iq elements form the human gene pool.
    It’s fine if you think like that, thankfully that’s not reality. If you think it’s okay to discriminate against people like this then I would want nothing to do with you anyway as you c learnt have no respect for others.

    What are you even on about? Maybe the conspiracy theorists have a point, they seem to have gotten more right than the “facts” have.

    Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 08/10/2021 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    “It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant.“

    Oh give us a break, it’s the same ****ing virus, giving it a new name doesn’t change jack****.
    It changes quite a bit, that's why it called a "variant". The delta variant is shown to be much more contagious than the original virus

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Can you explain why the excess death rate is no different to a normal year then in Ireland and the vast majority of European countries?
    The death rate in Ireland was much higher last year, and the beginning of this year, compared to the average for the previous five years - https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-i...76262-Mar2021/

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    If that’s the case the vaccine is pointless anyway so therefore we shouldn’t be forcing or coercing people to take it anyway.
    The vaccine is tested against the variants, and has (so far) proven to be effective against them. The more people that refuse to it, and open themselves up to infection, the more chance there is that a variant will emerge that's resistant to the vaccine, and we'll be back where we started

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.
    It, and I really can't stress this enough, is nothing of the sort.
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 07/10/2021 at 4:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post

    Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.
    I'll leave it there so

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Jesus tap dancing Christ.

    I mean...

    One thing I would add to tets' post is that we went through extraordinary measures to reduce the excess death toll. Had we not done so, the death rate would have been through the roof. In March of last year, some Italian newspapers went from one page of obituaries to ten pages. But yeah, it's all makey-uppey.

    I note CSAD hasn't actually given anything to back his view up. The posts are the equivalent of someone putting their fingers in their ears saying "Nah nah nah you're wrong can't hear you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    It changes quite a bit, that's why it called a "variant". The delta variant is shown to be much more contagious than the original virus


    The death rate in Ireland was much higher last year, and the beginning of this year, compared to the average for the previous five years - https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-i...76262-Mar2021/


    The vaccine is tested against the variants, and has (so far) proven to be effective against them. The more people that refuse to it, and open themselves up to infection, the more chance there is that a variant will emerge that's resistant to the vaccine, and we'll be back where we started



    It, and I really can't stress this enough, is nothing of the sort.
    Has the bull**** variant come yet?

    Nope looking at the data presented by the tag you used, one month of April had a high death rate (and even then wasn’t worse than Janurary in 2017-2018 & 2016-2017). The rest of 2020 is no different to any other month in the previous years.


    Great so it’s the same virus essentially, yeah and if they open themselves up to infection surely that this persons problem and not the government surely? A variant resistent to the vaccine, come off it. This sounds like manipulation to me, how else to convince someone to take a vaccine against their will.

    Yes it is of the sort, you are saying one patient should be denied health care because of them not taking a shot, this is was the Nuremberg code was brought in to prevent and yet here we are in 2021 in same position as we were when the Nazis were around.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Jesus tap dancing Christ.

    I mean...

    One thing I would add to tets' post is that we went through extraordinary measures to reduce the excess death toll. Had we not done so, the death rate would have been through the roof. In March of last year, some Italian newspapers went from one page of obituaries to ten pages. But yeah, it's all makey-uppey.

    I note CSAD hasn't actually given anything to back his view up. The posts are the equivalent of someone putting their fingers in their ears saying "Nah nah nah you're wrong can't hear you!"
    Ah right so if that’s the case why have countries that didn’t do the same measures have also a low excess death rate? Sweden for instance, we keep being told about how wrong they got it yet Sweden’s death rate is no different to the last 5 years and never found themselves struggling for hospital beds (never had less than 20% of hospital beds available).

    And where’s the proof that the death rate would have been through the roof? I’ve just shown you a country that didn’t do the measures and had no different a death rate to previous years.

    I’ve given you information, if you want to inform yourself why don’t you go and look at this information for yourself? If I’m wrong you’ll find a source saying I’m wrong.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 08/10/2021 at 12:04 PM.

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    The Auschwitz Museum would prefer if vaccine mandates were not compared to the holocaust.
    I defer to their judgement

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Has the bull**** variant come yet?
    Yes.

    You've contracted it. And there's no cure.

    Sweet Jesus, only the most loathsome of creatures would bring gassing Jews in the Holocaust into an argument on vaccination.
    Last edited by Eminence Grise; 07/10/2021 at 10:47 PM.
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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Has the bull**** variant come yet?

    Nope looking at the data presented by the tag you used, one month of April had a high death rate (and even then wasn’t worse than Janurary in 2017-2018 & 2016-2017). The rest of 2020 is no different to any other month in the previous years.
    You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

    Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

    In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them.

    Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

    Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters, highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

    I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 07/10/2021 at 8:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

    Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

    In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them.

    Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

    Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters, highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

    I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"
    This is pretty solid reasoning.

    I think the whole "my body my choice" is a pretty juvenile way of looking at things and kind of a "haha, look how smart I am using pro-choice language to stick it up to people who make me feel inferior for not understanding the implications of this".. maybe.. I might be wrong..

    . It reminds me of a young lad I once encountered on the tarmac at edinburgh airport who, when I told him it wasnt a good idea to light a cigarette under an airplane wing, replied, " who the **** are you? The airplane police?".... upon which I said, "knock yourself out, but I'll be standing over there... "
    (Incidentally, my Scottish buddy who is much bigger than me, told him to cop the **** on, " are you a ****ing idiot" ..at which point he complied rapid...)

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    Sweden's excess death is at 8,005 according to ourworldindata
    According to the same graph, Ireland's is at 929, but there's been no updates to it for Ireland since June

    The King of Sweden admitted their approach failed: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ospitals-cases
    The Swedish Prime Minister admitted the approach failed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rus-fell-short
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.
    Absolutely. ICU operates on a 1:1 nursing-patient ratio. One bed requires 56 shifts per month; one nurse works max 14 shifts (many can't take that level and drop to 12 or even lower), so you need at least four nurses for that bed and closer to 4.5 WTE minimum when you factor in holidays and sick leave cover. Assuming they're on the top of the staff nurse pay scale with their LSI (15 years service), weekend and night shift pay they'll be on about €55k pa. And a nurse can't just toddle up to work in ICU off another ward or the hospital bank - ICU nurses are airways specialists and have to complete a postgrad qualification. Covid also requires proning patients and that takes a team of 4-5 to rotate the patient twice a day.

    So one ICU bed costs about €20,000 in nursing salaries alone every month. Then you can add consultant, reg, cleaners, equipment (the ventilator!) and meds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Sweden's excess death is at 8,005 according to ourworldindata
    According to the same graph, Ireland's is at 929, but there's been no updates to it for Ireland since June

    The King of Sweden admitted their approach failed: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ospitals-cases
    The Swedish Prime Minister admitted the approach failed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rus-fell-short
    Nah nah nah, you aren’t getting away with that. What was Sweden death rate in 2020 and compare it to the previous 5 years, I already did that from doing my research and found the excess death rate is no different to the previous 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

    Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

    In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them.

    Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

    Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters, highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

    I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"
    Yeah they can tell us **** all they want, it doesn’t make it true. Countries like Sweden that didn’t lock people up also had an excess death rate in line with normal years which disproves that argument.

    Because I’ve told you information, now it’s up to you to get off your ass and research it, I found this information from digging for it so believe you can too if you really want to. Just like you buy the crap that lockdowns work just because someone from our clown shop of a government said it did, the last thing someone from government wants to do is tell us the lockdown was for nothing so they ofcourse will say they worked…

    Yeah yeah yeah whatever you say, like talking to a wall trying to discuss that nonsense with you.

    Ah see this is what has been done, try compare the Nordics and make it look as if Sweden got it wrong, that crap isn’t going to work with me, what was Sweden’s death rate in 2020 compared to 2015-2019? That’s the only comparable statistic.

    The ICU filled up with people who got hit by a car who the had a positive covid test you mean? That’s why excess death rate is the only metric I will consider valid and only when it’s compared to the previous 5 years. Also you forget ICU’s are always filled up thanks to our shambles of a health care system, the only difference is now it’s making the news, the news didn’t seem to give to ****s about the ICU shortage 2 years ago when they are overflowing then also.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 11/10/2021 at 9:03 AM.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Have you a link to support anything you're saying? Anything at all like?

    Because tets gave a link which showed excess mortality. And I gave a link to support excess mortality. Why should we believe you (with no supporting whatsoever) over Reuters, the King of Sweden, and the ****ing Prime Minister of Sweden?

    You haven't given one iota of information. I'm not going to go googling your random theories on the off chance I stumble on the same conspiracy theory page as you've been on. You show me where your info is coming from and then we can assess it; that's how reasoned debate works.

    People have been hit by cars since they were invented. The reason to look at excess mortality is to explicitly remove stuff like people dying with covid (but not of covid). If there is excess mortality - and tets has shown that there is - then that's a fact independent of car crash victims happening to have covid. In simple terms - if the number of people dying in car crashes in 2019 was the same as in 2020, and if there was significant excess mortality in 2020 (which there was in April in particular), then that's got nothing to do with car crashes. That's the effect of a pandemic.

    Also, ICU was full of people with one specific virus. For example, in April last year there was a peak of 160 covid patients in ICU, and in January this year it hit 221. That's utterly unique and makes your attempt to dismiss this as the result of a poor healthcare system irrelevant. Yes, our healthcare system is poor, but you should still get vaccinated to avoid clogging up ICU beds for people who need them through no fault of their own.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 08/10/2021 at 12:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    The Auschwitz Museum would prefer if vaccine mandates were not compared to the holocaust.
    I defer to their judgement
    It sort of is though weather he likes it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    Yes.

    You've contracted it. And there's no cure.

    Sweet Jesus, only the most loathsome of creatures would bring gassing Jews in the Holocaust into an argument on vaccination.
    It just goes to show we learn nothing from history ever.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 11/10/2021 at 9:04 AM.

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