This post is hysterical. By which I mean, it exhibits hysteria, rather than being very funny. It is kind of funny too. Care to quote any of those posts, or are you just strawmanning to troll?Originally Posted by MylesNotMiley
I don't think anyone's saying he's an Irish van Dijk.
But he's an experienced Premier League player and a seasoned international. Liam Scales is neither, by contrast.
This post is hysterical. By which I mean, it exhibits hysteria, rather than being very funny. It is kind of funny too. Care to quote any of those posts, or are you just strawmanning to troll?
We've Coleman, Duffy, Egan, Omabamidele, Manning and Doherty who have all in the past 12 months played as part of a 3 man centre defence at club or international level. That's before mention of Clark or Scales. We're fine for cover. If someone extraordinary happens and we lose two of those options during the game, then the option of going to a back 4 exists.
Clark - now - should only be considered as the left of a 2 man central defence, or as the centre or left of a three man defence. He is not the best option at left back, and has never been a LWB. Neither Clark or Scales was going to play in either game unless in incredible exceptional situation. I wouldn't be surprised if Omabamidele doesn't start tomorrow either to be honest. I think we could easily see us employing a very aggressive 343 with Cullen dropping deep allowing the rcb and lcb to take the ball further upfield.
We don't know if Scales is going to be international standard, we know what Clark is capable of, and rightly or wrongly (lets move on), he's not in the manager's thoughts for one of the starting 3 CB positions, or first replacement. In that regard, given his age, surely it's a fair call to give Scales a taste of the international setup, given he's proven at his current level, that he is capable of excelling (in what is a problematic position for us going back more than 10 years at this stage) and seeing what he is about? Surely that is (if not good management) prudent management?
As Stu mentions, maybe it's not going to be a 3 at the back, or certainly not a straight 3 cb back 3.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
Its not hysterical as such, polarised and funny that he needed to "join" just to post that. There is validity in the post but its just reactionary.
On the reactionary stuff the forum has been much more focused and straight down the line the last few games, evidence based opinions and fairly similar analysis, some might say boring but its been well measured.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Hes not proven though, he was very poor in two legs against Flora. Thats nothing near this level
Apologies for this though, I absolutely hate when posters pull out and quote like this from the main point being made, and then act like some one upmanship or that theyve completely nullified your post. Just wanted to say that scales is nowhere near international standard - and I'm not sure he ever will be(but on the evidence ive seen so far hes not.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 03/09/2021 at 12:49 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
I've heard about him through a friend who had dealings with him, and I've only heard good things about Clark. He's one of my favourite internationals of the past 10 yrs to be honest and have said it a few times on this forum as well. There could be an element of considering his injury record too over the past few years. In terms of availability/dependability on that front, it is an area he's weaker than duffy egan and o'shea for sure.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
Not sure I fully agree with that. We have to play 4/5 of those players (depending on if we're going 3-5-2 or 4-3-3). Manning hasn't really shown enough to suggest he's at international level yet. Nor has Omabamidele or Scales*. We ended Wednesday with no other centre-half options in the squad I think. We had four, started three, and brought the fourth on through injury. We're not overflowing with options there.
Yes, bring the younger players through. We have no choice, given where we're at. But I don't think we should exclusively gamble on young prospects while ignoring solid options. And a 31-year-old with 200+ Premier League starts and 30 caps is a solid option. Ditto a 27-year-old with 200 Championship appearances.
Has Kenny discarded them? Maybe he has; maybe there's some other reason they're not in the squad. Those are the sort of decisions Kenny will survive or not by, ultimately. But I'm not sure we can really conclude that it's "prudent management". It could equally be a misjudgment by a manager biased towards players he's worked with at underage, for example.
* - Also, Scales is not proven at his current level given he's only after moving up a level. And (with reference to the Jack Byrne thread to avoid rehashing the same arguments all over) I don't think being proven at LoI level justifies inclusion in the national squad over players like Clark/Lenihan.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 03/09/2021 at 1:08 PM.
It was me.
It's the one thing I'm expectant of to be honest, that Parrott is going to start. He looks like he is in the process of finding himself. his last two internationals were good (awaits the standard retorts) and he is scoring and making goals. Away to Portugal, in the formation we used and the tactics we utilised, keeping him in reserve was prudent. Space between the lines could be at a premium, and the one thing that Moldova and Georgia (similar styles and personnel to the Azeri's) struggled with was McGoldrick and ODowda running directly at an angle. Parrott gives you that, and has given every team he's been successful with from what I can see. Putting Connolly and Robinson slightly withdrawn from Idah allows them to use the fb/cb channel or (in the case below) the wb/cb or rcb/cb & lcb/cb channels.
Azerbaijan mixed it up against Luxembourg. They certainly look to be defending in lines of threes, and in the following clip they are at set up as 532, 3331, 352 more so than the suggested 3-4-3 from the clips i saw earlier.
They look susceptible to good movement.
McGrath had more about him in the middle with regard to the more defensive side than I expected the other night. I don't think the suggestion of him and Cullen playing as a 2 (traditionally flat) or in a split holding, and distributing pair.
if we are expecting a tougher time of it vs Serbia, with less of the ball, and more pressing for longer, then it makes sense to let the ball do a lot of our work tomorrow, and leave the athletes (Hendrick, McClean) the night off against Azerbaijan.
Is gung-ho more reckless than incautious btw?
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
No retorts. We don't have many players with international goals to their names, and it's not like Azerbaijan are world beaters.
This is an important point. Squad management over the window is a little tricky.if we are expecting a tougher time of it vs Serbia, with less of the ball, and more pressing for longer, then it makes sense to let the ball do a lot of our work tomorrow, and leave the athletes (Hendrick, McClean) the night off against Azerbaijan.
Yes, but more deliberate.Is gung-ho more reckless than incautious btw?
I would love to see an Irish team with the skills and set-up to go for the jugular, but I fear it'd look awfully like the 5-2 Cyprus game. Even in moderation, it could look like the Luxembourg game. Azerbaijan are a decent team defensively - they really don't get thumped - and I could see us spending an hour getting frustrated against them before compromising our own defence to seek out a winner. Maybe we should: Kenny certainly won't get any plaudits for a 0-0.
Sigh. Don't worry Paul, I'm not concerned so no need to apologise. No different to you not caring that I vehemently disagree with you.
I don't doubt that Clark is a solid option - that much is clear. But you're right, they are accumulatively decisions that will define his reign along with the results. Of course we can't judge if it's prudent management, just like we can't judge that it's mismanagement either. I don't know if he's in the discarding game so to speak. I may have said in another post, or possibly on twitter, that if O'Shea was out, and Clark wasn't called in, then there might be something more to it. I don't know.
LWB and LB are problem positions for us. Stevens is good, and was excellent for a number of seasons for the Blades, but Doherty showed how good someone can be in that position, while allegedly crocked from 60 mins on. Who is proven there outside of those? Manning, Cunningham, nobody!
James McClean proved the other night that he's weak as an option at LWB. There was a point in time where I thought it could be the best position possible for him, but it's been shown.
On Darragh Lenihan, and sure for the craic we may as well throw in Derrick Williams while we're at it, they've been around squads for nearly 4 years now, and amounted a grand total of what, 8 caps? 3 managers have concluded that they are currently in fact not international standard, and better options exist. Scales absolutely may not be international standard. I don't disagree with that all. it would be churlish to say otherwise. But for a number of years now, I have expressed concern that when we had the opportunity to examine options for problem positions that we've not done so and persisted with players who have never made the jump.
I think most people reading my post would have assumed that by current level, I was of course referring to what he's demonstrated for Shamrock Rovers, where he's been the standout left back/left wing back in the league. Of course i should have clearly differentiated that instead of alluding to what he's demonstrated in all those games he's played for Celtic since signing 2 days ago. I should have known better, how silly of me.* - Also, Scales is not proven at his current level given he's only after moving up a level. And (with reference to the Jack Byrne thread to avoid rehashing the same arguments all over) I don't think being proven at LoI level justifies inclusion in the national squad over players like Clark/Lenihan.
This is pertinent, and I'm not debating it for the craic, but really to try and underline that up to now there aren't gambles, they are necessities. It's a necessity because the last half generation has produced nothing.
Take O'Shea, Idah, Connolly, they aren't gambles.
What is the alternative to Idah and Connolly? James Collins isn't at that level. Shane Long isn't playing football, has never been prolific, and is nearing the end of his career.
Take Bazunu, Travers & Kelleher. That happened out of necessity. The alternatives were McDermott, Colin Doyle, Kieran O'hara, James Talbot. It's not a gamble, it's a necessity.
Take Scales. What are the alternatives available right now? Doherty, McClean, Manning, Williams, Cunningham. One player has shown something positive in that position. Is Clark an option there? No.
The risks or gambles I would agree that Kenny has taken, have been Knight, Molumby, and Parrott. Knight was absolutely worthwhile. the other two, I think both were worth the risk, for differing reasons - Molumby out of desperation to try and get something from an area of the pitch that we've been void of any drive or ambition for at least a campaign and a half (being generous there), and Parrott because we need some imagination.
Similar to an earlier poster, I'll stop now, to not distract further.
Last edited by tetsujin1979; 03/09/2021 at 2:06 PM. Reason: minor correction to quote
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
And the Dutch would have won the Euros if Van Dijk wasn't injured.....
Clark is well used to be playing hoofball with Ireland in the past - he was quite good at it, if I remember correctly. He's also fond of 'hoofing' when he occasionally gets in the Newcastle team under Steve Bruce.
Sorry, I didn't realize I needed a certain amount of posts to comment in a thread with all the "real" fans.
I actually agree with most of what you've said there - though you've misinterpreted a couple of things I said. I absolutely accept our gambles aren't really that (beggars can't be choosers), I don't think we should exclusively look to them.
Yes, we don't have alternative keepers, so we're stuck with Kelleher/Travers/Bazunu and hoping they learn on the job. But the alternative to Scales/Omadamibele is established players in Lenihan/Clark. Centre-back is an active problem for us in that we only have three (Duffy, Egan, Omadamibele) in the squad, and if we need another choice (like we did on Wednesday), we're shoe-horning players into positions that maybe they've played before, but it's not their usual or most effective ones. So why not call up both Scales and Clark? Best of both worlds as I see it.
(I figured you were talking about Scales at Rovers rather than Celtic, btw, which is why I tried to hedge my bets by covering both levels in my reply. I don't think excelling with Rovers de facto justifies an international call-up over players established at a higher level)
Last edited by pineapple stu; 03/09/2021 at 2:26 PM.
The other thing people are forgetting is 3 games in 9 days is an awful lot, we cant be expected to have all the same players starting, or perhaps even all the back 5/4 starting either, even if they are our strongest line in our 11. I'd much preter Clark coming on against Serbia than say Manning or Scales and I think most would.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 03/09/2021 at 2:35 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
3 games in 7 days as it happens.
It all suits the stronger Nations with Big Panels of a decent quality to choose from. It will be a really big surprise if a bigger football Nations do not qualify with the way it is now.
Last edited by seanfhear; 03/09/2021 at 7:09 PM.
Is this not just because covid compressed the available time for qualifying? Or is 3 games in a week to be s regular thing?
it goes back to 2 after this set of games.
And won't come back next campaign?
(10 games is 3/3/2/2, so it had to change - but hopefully 5 double-headers for next campaign)
Just on Scales, he’s had a near-flawless domestic season and has been almost ever-present for Rovers I think. He’s a really classy footballer and at U21 level looked better than the much heralded (at the time) Masterson in my opinion. Sure he was poor against Flora Tallinn as were all of Rovers’ defenders really. Hard to see why one wouldn’t rate him. That’s not to say he’s ready for this level of football and of course he may never be, but he has literally been outstanding this season. He’s one to keep an interested eye on I’d say.
That wouldn't make any sense to me and is a major concern. He has to pick the best players available to him, that will help him win matches.
He's an international manager, not a club manager! No hiding behind picking younger players.
He needs to learn faster in the job. Playing out back from the back at ALL times, as opposed to at the RIGHT times was a disaster waiting to happen esp when Bazunu doesn't look comfortable with ball at feet.
Plus I feel we are too open in midfield and to easy to play through
I want minimum 4 points from next 2 games and 2 strong petformances. These games are more important than Portugal as that was a shot to nothing.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks