Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It's a long while ago, but if memory serves me correct, it was his debut against Reading in the league, the FA Cup game they lost and one other... I know they were in absolute shambles – but he was the player who above all got credit from the latter part of their season.
The other thing with Celtic in general is, the last three seasons they've signed 11, 10 and 9 players on permanent deals - there were also loans too, which we won’t count. And most of those have probably been a success. But when you’re signing that number of players, there’s an obligation to give them minutes, give them time to integrate etc. etc. So it’s almost impossible to give kids an opportunity when you’ve say got a core squad of 18 at the club, another 10 new faces trying to integrate and establish themselves and then kids behind them. If you’re curious…
Year 1:
Hart £1m (good business to solve their goalkeeping situation for 3 years)
Juranovic £2.5m (good business, sold after 18 months for £7.5m +)
Scales £500k (good business, first team regular for peanuts)
Hatate £1.4m (great business, probably worth 10 times that)
O’Reilly £1.5m (great business, think they rejected a €15m bid from Italy for him)
Kyogo £4.5m (great business, averaging 25 goals a season for that money is great)
Abada £3.6m (sold for £10m, so financially lucrative at least, even if it was messy due to the Israeli situation)
Giakoumakis £2.5m (sold for £4.3m, decent spell, tidy profit)
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Starfelt £4m (sold for €5m, no harm)
Ideguchi £850k (sold for £870k, no harm, low risk gamble)
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McCarthy FREE (terrible business, 27 games in 3 years on good wages)
Year 2:
Maeda £1.6m (another bargain for a very good footballer)
Carter Vickers £6m (considered to be worth much more than that)
A Johnston £3m (good deal, worth a good bit more than they paid)
Jota £6.4m (sold for £25m after a year)
Oh £2.5m (sold for £4.5m after 18 months, spell was mixed but tidy profit)
Haksabanovic (decent first season, left on loan to Stoke after that, they made another good profit)
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Siegrist FREE (back up keeper, rarely needed, job done)
Mooy FREE (useful pro at the end of his career)
-
Bernabei £3.75m (don’t think it has really worked out but they’ll probably recoup most of the fee)
Kobayashi FREE (low risk, hasn’t worked out)
Year 3: no point on judging these after 1 season:
Nawrocki £4.3m
Palma £3.5m
Lagerbielke £3m
Kuhn £2.8m
Holm £2.5m
Yang £2.1m
Tilio £1.5m
Kwon £1m
Iwata £830k
You can see it’s a really good business model and if you can do it consistently, which they have, it’s excellent. They take gambles on a lot of players, generally in a particular age bracket, knowing that a few will be worth a tonne more, plenty will make a tidy profit and a few will be busts. But you have to accept that that comes at the expense of developing young players. And it’s totally ok to look at your situation in Scotland and decide that it’s too hard and too risky and too expensive to develop youth players and it’s simply not worth it, when you’ve got excellent scouting and you have the ability to consistently turn a profit off a player age 20-23 who you sign for £2.5-6m.
It’s terrible for the youth players but from a Celtic perspective - I can understand it.
Once again to go back to the Liverpool comparison, in those 3 seasons where Celtic signed 30 players (excluding loans), Liverpool signed 8-10 players, depending on how you categorise young and senior players (Diaz and Konate in Y1, Nunez, Gakpo, Carvalho(?), Ramsey(?) In Y2, and Endo, Szoboszlai, Gravenberch and MacAllister in Y3. Always just a handful of senior players trying to adapt, always space for a youth team player to breakthrough.
RE the irish tour of 2015, a) that’s a long time ago and b) I’d never look at a pre-season tour’s u21 team as way to look at the kids in an academy or coming through. Almost the best kids end up on a preseason tour - I’m pretty sure an 18 year old Joe Gomez and a 20 year old Raheem Sterling and an 18 year old Harry Wilson would have been on the senior tour that summer, 18 year old Ryan Kent too - and another 8 of their best kids.
As broadly mentioned by crafty, Liverpool:
Kelleher - signed at 16, second keeper and a really good keeper at that
Jaros - signed on his 16th birthday, with Czechia at the euros, now third choice behind Kelleher
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Trent - been at Liverpool since age 6. 300+ appearances, won everything (premier league, fa cup, league cup, champions league, world club champs), PFA team of the year x3, FIFA world 11, Uefa team of the year, PFA Young Player of the year, etc etc etc.
Bradley - signed at 16, having been part of their NI development centre since age 9
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Quansah - signed age 5, now a first choice centre back playing 33 games last season, called up to England age 21.
Phillips - useful fringe player, signed at 18 from Bolton
Van Der Berg - signed at 17. Will either replace Matip or be sold - Liverpool asking price is £25m
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Gomez - signed just after his 18th birthday. Over 200 games for Liverpool
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Bajcetic - signed at 16 from Spain, still a teenager, last season ruined with injuries but youngest ever player to start a champions league knockout game (vs Real Madrid) and had an excellent debut season at age 17/18, playing 19 games before getting injured in March.
McConnell - signed at 14, won a league cup medal, playing in the final age 19 last season
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Jones - signed age 9, 133 senior games already.
Elliott - signed at 16, 119 games for Liverpool at age 21
Clarke - another League cup winner, injured right now, otherwise real potential to break in just like Jones and Elliott have
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Gordon - signed at 16, Liverpool’s second youngest ever goalscorer, was injured for 2 years but is now back
Doak - signed from Celtic at 16, another with injury issues, was called up by Scotland to the euros age 18 but withdrew with injury
Danns - signed age 8, by far the most natural goalscorer Liverpool have produced since the days of Owen and Fowler, went from the first year schol as an u18 to 21s and senior team all in a year. Played in that final.
Could also have mentioned Nallo, Morton, Koumas, Nyoni. To me, that’s a well functioning system. It’s difficult when the standards are so high at the top end of the premier league, but to consistently be able to believe in young players and to give them opportunities, so they can ultimately become first team squad members and first team regulars, it’s admirable.
Last edited by elatedscum; 26/07/2024 at 1:41 AM.
But what have Liverpool won?
You obviously didn't follow the Idah thread!
Lots of long posts exchanged above (bravo) but as I’ve argued before, the nature of the top of the SPL is that it’s a no-mistake zone. Out of nowhere Rangers lost at Ross County and that was that. As Crafty says, second is last in Scotland so it’s much safer to buy semi-established players rather than to develop them (I think elatdscum says this too). I’m no expert, but I think rugby teams like Leinster can blood talent because of the play-off system in their league – finishing in the top 4 is the initial target, so the odd unexpexcted defeat doesn’t hurt. It can kill you in the SPL. I think the seeding of the URC playoffs with SA teams now involved changes that a bit though, but there’s much more margin for error here.
I think there’s a lot of merit in what elatedscum suggests about Afalobi, Lee O’Connor et al. I remember being really excited by Afalobi at U19s but had a nagging doubt that he was just bigger and faster, a great advantage at that level. O’Connor looked good when he was capped by Ireland.
CSAD’s off the mark accusing Pinaeappler of seeing things through the lens of a Celtic fan though. He’s sceptical of elatedscum’s (anti-Celtic) thesis but wasn’t much enthused by Idah staying at Celtic. I’m a Celtic fan and think elatescum might be right - I’m generally not keen on untested Irish players going there - whereas I think a return to Celtic would be brilliant for Idah.
With all due respect, that's nonsense. The arguments could be made with the Czech league & Austrian league and yet they have no issue with bringing through young players, the SPL is just a terrible league for youth development and Celtic are one of the worst in it. Even at the end when Celtic had the league won they still weren't blooding young players which just kills the idea that the "unique" challenges of the SPL arent the main reason for Celtic not blooding young players, they are just terrible at it.
The fact is for the likes of Afolabi and O'Connor we will never know how good they could have been if they hadn't wasted so many years at Celtic "developing" but I will say irrespective of their supposed talent level, the fact they were willing to stay there as long as they did and didnt move on when it was apparent Celtic didnt have any clear pathway to the first team just shows me they A. Didn't have their head screwed on & B. They weren't very well advised. With those two factors playing a role I suspect unless they were a huge prospect the odds of them ever making it was probably slim.
Ah no Pineapple is a Celtic fan through n through, even if he tries to deny it the level of which he'll defend Celtic no person would do unless they have emotional attachment to the team they are talking about. In regards to the likes of Idah I agree, for academy players I'd run like the plague away from Celtic but for players like Idah and Scales its not a bad place to go.
It may well be Lawal's turn this summer to sit down and have a long and hard think about his future. Celtic will likely want him to sign a new contract if he goes out on loan unless they've a clause to extend his contract.
With Vata leaving on a free and Daniel Kelly turning down a new deal with six months left on his contract they won't want a situation where Lawal returns next summer with only 12 months remaining on his deal.
I'm not a Celtic fan first off. I've said that to CSAD before but he doesn't tend to listen to things he doesn't want to hear...
I felt Celtic was a good move for Idah - I'd argued for a loan move somewhere for him - but the disappointment was that he was still coming off the bench for most of it. He was at least scoring more off the bench than at Norwich so there was that, but I think he needs to be starting games at this stage of his career. That's all.
I don't disagree with the idea that a youth player going to a club like Celtic - with their pressure to win - isn't necessarily a great career move. UCD develop lots of players precisely by not having a pressure to win. (I mean, slightly different level, but...)
But - that's not quite the same as arguing that Celtic are destroying these guys' careers. The Highland League isn't great (then again, Liam Scales came through the LoI First Division), but the players have gotten plenty of loan moves to higher leagues and some haven't made anything of them. I think the players have to take a large amount of blame for that, and they're hardly the first players ever to have failed to make it at senior level.
(And I think Celtic have to take blame for signing Kenny, cos I think he was never up to that level to begin with)
Thank f*ck that's over, I am very critical of his agent as he should have advised him to get out of Celtic a long time ago.
Nah I disagree, you're a Celtic fan which is clear from how much you religiously defend them.
Yeah but unfortunately Stoke are a basket case of a club. Wouldn't be surprised if he's played at CB too as McNally's replacement
If this is all you have to contribute, don't.
You can't spell failure without FAI
https://www.stokecityfc.com/news/202...g-bosun-lawal/
Signs for Stoke in 4 year deal.
Its really not that complicated!!!
Good to see some movement on the transfer front for our younger players.
Hard to know how Stoke will fair but hoping Lawal can get into the team and get 30-40 games this season. If he can establish himself at this level you'd assume given his age profile that he should continue to get picked in the senior squad.
My only annoyance was this move didn't happen sooner, he's missed out on a whole pre season with Stoke and is now injured so he might actually find it tricky to break into the XI for awhile.
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