Ireland would be fairly mid-range for height in European terms, certainly we don't have a disadvantage size-wise but obviously Germans, Serbs, etc are bigger on average.
No its not the size of us seanfhear, we're just not very good at the moment and all ways of getting better include things we're also traditionally not very good at.Originally Posted by seanfhear
I walked behind Gary Pallister in London once = = I felt like a bit of a vertically challenged person.
They come in different shape and sizes like most countries, tbh I’m shocked this is even being discussed as an issue.
The tallest country in Europe you have 3 which are Netherlands,Montenegro,Bosnia&Herzegovina
And then you have the next bracket which Ireland would be in on average. Size is a complete non issue.
Your average midfielder in the Premiership is considerably taller than they were 20 / 30 years ago. Back then there were far more English / Irish / Scots / Welsh players playing in those positions and playing generally in the top league.
True but at the same time there are still plenty of smaller players. Our team man for man hasn’t got an issue with size so it’s a complete non issue for us. If we were Indonesia or someone like that you could blame size but not for us.
Our issues right now is we neglected an entire generation of footballers form 1993-1997 and that right now should be the group driving us and because of that neglect we are in the mess we are in. Things have gotten better at underage level atleast for our age groups since the 1999 age group atleast so when they become our 24-28 year old group we will reap the rewards but sadly til then we have to reap what we sow and just try out youngsters and hope they are ready to step up earlier.
I fear you may be confusing the cause of the problem with its symptoms.
I'm sure everyone agrees that as a youngster progresses through the age groups, he needs to get the modern coaching and development which is appropriate to his stage of development.
And traditionally in Ireland (NI and ROI), upon reaching 15/16/17 that meant going to GB .
Now it's clear that fewer are going that route than previously, but I suspect that these days this only partly derives from GB clubs signing ever greater numbers from around the world. Equally relevant is that Irish teenagers aren't being well prepared for the move by having previously received progressive coaching between the ages of 6 and 16.
For it's still really only the very top clubs in England who are signing from all around the world, while many Championship, even Lge One, clubs are developing ever better academies of their own, using youngsters drawn from closer to home. Why aren't Irish kids going to those clubs instead?
In other words, these are symptoms of a bigger problem, not the cause. Which means that promising 16 y.o's now getting their next development at home in the LOI isn't going to work either, at least unless/until LOI clubs can provide coaching and development of their own to a standard comparable to that in GB (or continental Europe).
Meaning the answer is to improve the set-up at a much earlier age, so that youngsters don't suddenly find they've nowhere suitable to go by the time they reach 16, either in GB or with the LOI.
Btw, I'm only interested in this because the problems are very similar to what we face in NI. We do seem to be trying to address this with our Club NI:
"The new IFA Elite Programme has been branded CLUB NI. The programme aims to prepare our young players for the professional game and ultimately representing Northern Ireland at Senior International level."
https://www.irishfa.com/ifa-international/club-ni
I hear good things about this (though I'm not sure how much of this is genuine and how much is PR spin). Anyhow, this is where IFA coaches provide specialised coaching to the very best kids from a very early age, to prepare them for an eventual move over the water as teenagers, rather than to the IL.
And coincidentally it was as the IFA's Elite Performance Director, Jim Magilton, who was in charge of this before he joined Dundalk:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/23004002
P.S. I don't think there's anything to be drawn from the example of a prodigy like Erling Haaland - with his talent and family background, he was always going to get to the top, regardless of what route he took.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 17/04/2021 at 4:55 PM.
Irish players are going to those clubs though, it’s noticeable that more are signing for Brighton,Norwich,Derby for instance which are clubs that are good at bringing through youth.
It’s actually not a huge problem having the players at home at 16 though as at that age it’s all about education more than anything, it worked for someone like Sinclair Armstrong who left at 17 and has been going very well in England. Even listening to interviews from players like Nzingo who it’s rumored is going to Man United this summer from St Pats (plenty of clubs are after him though) he was even saying when he goes over to trial in England he doesn’t find it that difficult to adapt, even listening to someone like Adaramola from Crystal Palace who left Ireland at a very young age before the underage leagues became a thing and left mainly because at that point there wasn’t a good pathway for him but obviously afew years later he got picked for Ireland U17s and he even said he was very surprised at how good the Irish based players were, it was noticeable in the u17 matches aswell as all the LOI based players looked very good and were playing good/progressive attacking football. Overall I don’t think it’s really an issue for u18s at this point because it’s more important they are getting a good footballing education but I think once you get to 18/19 you need to probably think about moving up a level or two as that’s the point where the next stage of your development is required which would be best served at a better level like England for instance but even mainland Europe.
Haaland was always going to make it ofcourse but it shows even a player of his ability it took him a season to adapt.
FYI
Picked a random example and tested it:
England 1998 squad average height 5’11.73
England 2018 squad average height 6’0.04
Average height of the two squads was less than 1cm different from each other.
Thinking back to the midfielders in the premier league, you had Scholes at 5’6 and Viera at 6’4. You’ve got a David Silva today at 5’7 or a Bernardo Silva 5’8 and Phil Foden at 5’7 if you want to use younger examples. Meanwhile you’ve got Pogba at 6’3. Most really, both back then and now, have tended to be in the 5’10 to 6’1 range
Challenge Accepted! OK here goes
Group 1: Players who have already made a significant breakthrough in the Premier League or equivalent:
Caoimhin Kelleher, Aaron Connolly, Michael Obafemi, Will Smallbone, Adam Idah, Dara O'Shea, John Joe Patrick Finn, Jimmy Dunne
Group 2: Players who have started showing up regularly on EPL benches recently:
Ademipo Odubeko, Will Ferry, Conor Coventry, Lewis Richards
Group 3: Current regular Championship players:
Nathan Collins, Jason Knight, Jayson Molumby, Danny McNamara, Jordan Shipley, Ryan Manning, Chiedozie Ogbene
Group 4: Players who have made recent breakthroughs into Championship teams:
Andrew Omobamidele, Festy Ebosele, Louie Watson, Alex Gilbert
Group 5: League One players who could well be playing Championship level or above because a) they are loanees returning to a parent club or b)they could well be promoted:
Troy Parrott, Conor Masterson, Olamide Shodipo, Mark McGuinness, Peter Kioso, Gavin Bazunu, Dan Crowley, Anthony Scully, Sean Roughan
Group 6: Wildcards
Evan Ferguson - Senior debut at 14, doing well at U23 level while still 16 - senior breakthrough beginning to seem imminent
Ethon Varian - scoring regularly for the U23s at a club who basically will have dead rubbers until the end of the season
Luca Connell - Broke through at Championship level aged 17, made a horrible move, but at least is back playing senior football on loan
Connor Ronan - Difficult to judge the levels of his loan clubs, but should be close to League One level and seems to be doing well - could go higher next season
So there you go - my original list was "71 players under 25 who are on a pathway where there's a reasonable possibility that they will be playing at Championship level or above by March 2023." This list is "36 players under 25 with at least a decent chance of playing at Championship level or above by the end of 2020" - OK, my headlines need some work
Last edited by samhaydenjr; 18/04/2021 at 1:24 AM.
G1 - I think saying Idah / Obafemi & Kelleher have had Premiership breakthroughs is stretching it a good bit. Idah cant get in a Championship side all season, Obafemi needs to cop on badly and Kelleher, well no his is just not a significant breakthrough at PL level, it may become one but he's not there yet.
G2 - Lot of smoke around the Mipo flight risk to England fire. Will believe it when I see him in green, wouldn't be too hopeful atm.
G3 - Moulmby isn't playing regularly, he can't get in at Preston. Shipley has played less and less as the season has progressed and Ogbene isn't a regular, no.
In G5 you forgot Jack Taylor who's club went eight points clear in the automatic places with five to play this weekend and he is a key player there. Crowley is heading in the wrong direction divisions wise and is not featuring at Hull regularly. Neither is Parrott as his difficult first season keeps getting worse.
It’s pointless making predictions about where a player will be in the future because players take different lengths of time to find their feet, some are brilliant as a teenager and hit the ground running but that’s very rare and especially in Ireland as we seem to have a tendency across all sports to be late bloomers. There is reason for optimism looking at the list but making predictions on how any of them will do is like ****ing in the wind, all that matters is the destination not the journey.
11 centimetres can be very useful.
True, and he's an exception, though he was playing in a tougher league (mostly pro) and that would have helped improve his game as well.
You quoted my initial evidence. You can challenge it if you want, but you can't ask where it is while quoting it.
I think it's generally acknowledged that the national underage leagues in the past few years have been some help in terms of improving coaching quality and improving the standard of matches in general. There's a lot more to be done, but it's a starting point and we're maybe seeing some improvements coming through there. Early days yet though.
We weren't really starting from a high point - often finishing bottom of a 21s qualifying group for example - so let's see if it can be maintained. One semi-final doesn't make a summer.
None of the players I listed played for Ireland while they were in the LoI. Why is that relevant?
Well (a) the gap between Norway and Austria is 14.825, not 21.050, which is anomalously high, (b) you can't say that a gap of 14 points is 7 times the magnitude of a gap of 2 points; that's not how the UEFA coefficients work, and (c) you can't compare today's coefficients to ten years ago because teams play more matches before getting knocked out now. Dundalk are the obvious example - they were knocked out in the first round of the European Cup this year but still reached the EL group stages picking up two wins and four draws (the "second legs" were all scored as draws afaik", whereas in 2010 the defeat against Celje would have been the end for another year. That's why I compared positions, not coefficient points, and we've dropped from 29th in 2010 to 37th for next season and are provisionally 46th for the season following that as we lose Dundalk's first EL qualification.
The Austrian league is absolutely better than the Norwegian league, but not by enough to solely explain Haaland's improvement when he went there. He would have improved at Molde too.
Ah now. That's not a great argument. They had finished fourth in 2009 and were (deservedly) relegated over a financial issue. They won the FD and were third in the Premier in 2011. So I think it's very fair to say that Derry right now aren't at their 2010 level.
You picked five examples. I gave 500 examples. Bigger data sets are generally better.
All I'm saying is it shouldn't be a Plan A that promising footballers leave the country at 16 to play abroad. There needs to be a viable professional option here for players to follow, and then move upwards at a more suitable age (20-22 or so)
Last edited by pineapple stu; 18/04/2021 at 10:27 AM.
No, I completely agree with this. I won't pretend to know too much about the IL setup, but I'd say it's similar enough to here. There's a lot of work needs to be done at U16 level that the SFAI here seem to be resisting. That doesn't necessarily preclude there being a problem with the setup at ages 16-22 (give or take) as well though. Both senior setups are neglected, ours significantly more so.
There wasn’t evidence though.
It’s not just the results but it’s even the way the way all the teams play, from keeping the ball on the deck to the quality of passing to the chances created throughout the levels has been a huge plus and crucially every team plays 4-3-3 which studies have shown is the best formation to focus on at youth level as it’s been proven to produce better attacking players, Netherlands started it off and then the likes of Belgium & Austria have implimented a method similar and have produced the best talent they have produced in donkeys years. Most of those u21 groups were the groups from the old system ie contained mostly players from our lost generation from 1993-1997.
It’s relevant because if it was the league that made a difference why didn’t they get picked for Ireland when they were home based? Even just for a friendly.
I don’t know what years you are comparing but the current one is 21,050 which is a pretty huge gulf and 14,825 is pretty massive also.
You can compare because it all adds up, you were the one that compared the league 10 years apart based on UEFA ranking. You do realize the year before 2010 we were ranked 37th right? It’s a completely pointless way of comparing leagues, you can’t use that to compare leagues but then ignore the coefficient points that determines the league because part of that also is a lot of Eastern European leagues have had money pumped into their league and as a result their ranking increased, a big difference could also simply be we have stayed practically still (which the points indicate) but other leagues such as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan have jumped ahead due to have loads of money.
We DONT lose Dundalks first EL qualification, we lose the year before their EL qualification but also gain their most recent EL qualification meaning the LOI will shoot up next season most likely.
It’s 14,825 points better which is pretty substantial and yes it is by enough, do you watch the leagues how could you say they are similar when all the evidence proves otherwise? The team that produced Haaland also produced Szoboszlai who is now at Leipzig, Dabbur who made a move to Savilla, Sadio Mane to Southampton & Naby Keita to RB Leipzig, Dayot Upamecano to RB Leipzig, Takumi Minamino to Liverpool.
Name me a player Molde sold that is even in the same league as any of above and then I might be convinced but all the evidence points to Salzburg making Haaland the player he became rather than Molde.
Using one season when we are only 5 games in is an even worse example, the trend is Derry a top half to midtable so no different than normal.
I just focused on one country, I could throw in plenty more but all I need is a handful to prove my point that there is no one size fits all method, some cases it’s better it’s stay at home and some cases it’s better to go abroad.
While a being a teenager it’s about enjoying your footy rather than focusing on your career, if a players would prefer to go to England at the age of 16 that’s fine as that works for them, if they want to stay in Ireland to be with family or complete your education that also works but when they get to 18-19 they probably need to start thinking about moving abroad. Even with Bazunu after signing for City he wanted to stay Rovers for another year or two as he wanted to finish his leaving cert. All I’m saying is we need to stop trying to tell kids what’s best for them at a young, we need to just let them enjoy their football. Even looking at Sinclair Armstrong who went over at 17 turning 18 this year he didn’t go at 16 and only halfway through his first season he is already seen as a bigger prospect that Eze was and the QPR fans are already accepting they will lose him in the next few years so want to develop him as much as possible so they can make a big profit and ofcourse he was linked to City and CP this season after just signing after just signing for them. Players are ready at different points so while their young we should focus on what’s best for that player in the moment and not put all the attention into their future.
It's not relevant because (a) the LoI should really be a developmental one, a better step for young players than being stuck in a foreign academy before leaving for a better league in a player's early 20s and (b) the 8 players the LoI contributed to the Euro 2016 squad was really bad by the standards of almost every other league. If the LoI were improved to the level we need it to be, then yeah, you should start see players getting a couple of caps while with LoI clubs, and then quickly moving on.
I'm comparing 2020 and 2010. I don't know what years you're comparing.
But is 14.825 pretty massive? How do you even quantify it? It's not like an Elo system where 100 points of a gap means something. The Austrian league has RB Salzburg, who are way better than any club in Norway and that affects the league's coefficient. Below that, the leagues are much more comparable - as evidenced by Molde knocking Rapid Wien out of the Europa League this year and going as far as the last 16, or the two Austria v Norway ties the year before being shared (Haugasund beat Sturm Graz and LASK Linz beat Rosenborg).
So again, Haaland would have continued to improve domestically, and you can't attribute all his 2019 improvement to joining RB Salzburg. It absolutely helped, but you're trying to give Salzburg 100% credit and dismiss Molde, and that doesn't remotely stack up.
You can compare absolute rankings (29th v 46th) across time. You tried to compare coefficients - saying we were only 2 points lower rated than 2010 - which you can't do for the reasons I gave.
No, in 2009 we were ranked 30th.
I'm not ignoring the coefficient points. I'm saying you can't compare 2010 points to 2020 like you did. And again, it's not a pointless way of comparing leagues. You suggest our fall is because other Eastern leagues have come into money, but that's not the entire reason. The LoI has also much less money in that same time, and it's worse as a result.
I don't know where you're looking at tbh - everything you read seems to be wrong!
We already have their most recent EL qualification for next season's coefficient. That's not what I'm talking about - here's the following season's stats, where the first EL is gone and we're down to 46th. We need a serious performance in Europe this year to even hold our current 37th place.
No it's not - because Derry were widely predicted to struggle this year, as they did last year, finishing one point above the relegation play-off. That's not a top half team.
No - if you're serious about being a pro, then while you should of course always enjoy kicking a ball about, your teenage years are a hugely formative part of your career.
And I disagree with the second part I quoted here too - the FAI should absolutely have best practice in place for players to develop as best they can. It would do those players a dis-service to let them work it out for themselves as you suggest. And as 90% of players at the last Euros - a wide sample of top top players - started their senior careers domestically before moving abroad (where relevant) around 20-22, we need to have a good reason for not following suit. And given how badly our own player development has been going in the past decade or two, we can be reasonably sure that our different way of doing things isn't much good...
Last edited by pineapple stu; 19/04/2021 at 8:17 AM.
If the league was much better then than it would have been providing NT players, that’s the only way you’ll convince me of this because right now no evidence points to it.
It’s pretty massive if you are saying that a gap of 2,000 in the LOI 2010-2020 comparison is huge, if you want to compare the ranking you must first compare the points involved. The only difference in the Rapid v Molde game is Molde winning one and drawing the other in 2 one off matches, that doesn’t make the leagues similar in quality, that’s like you saying the Czech league is on par with the Premier league just because Slavia Prague knocked out Leicester city. I’d also compare the fact that Austria had 4 teams in Europe and Norway only having 1 as an indication of who has the stronger competition.
He may have improved, he wouldn’t have reached the level he’s at if he stayed at Molde, he would have needed to go abroad to reach the heights he reached. It does stack up because if the Austrian and Norwegian league are of a similar standard than he would have seamlessly brought his form for Molde over to RB which he didn’t.
If you want to dismiss the co efficient you can’t compare the ranking that decides to co efficient. In 2009 the LOI ranking was 37th...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009..._Europa_League
See 35th
Yes you can compare because if you lose games the points are taken away also, that’s the only fair way you can compare using ranking is pointless is all that shows is many leagues have bumped ahead like the examples I gave. And again where’s the evidence as a result? Going by Europe also the LOI has had 3 qualifications this decade compared to 0 before that, where’s the results to back it up bar nostalgia.
For the 2021-2022 season the ranking is based on results from the 2015-2016 season to the 2019-2020 season.
The ranking you are using is for the 2022-2023 season. Next season we are ranked 37th which is the same as 2009 which by you’re metric means we are the same standard as 2009.
So wait until the season is done to analyze where they are and not 5 matches.
If you talking about being a pro at 16 you have already failed the child, it’s all about enjoying your football at that age, it’s just about doing what suits the player. Some want to go at 16 like Parrott and some rather wait until they are 18 like Bazunu but it doesn’t decide where you are in your career.
They should but they should do it based on what’s best for that specific individual, not what’s best for all kids at a certain age. Parrott went at 16 that doesn’t mean it’s best for Bazunu to go at 16, he stayed and got himself a European campaign at Shamrock rovers.
And once again you are comparing countries in Eastern and Central Europe with ours which is a totally different culture all together. It’s been terrible in the past but as improved recently so it’s a whole other ball game now, even our 2 previous u17s were pretty much all home based bar maybe 5-6 in the squad and the home based players didn’t look much worse than the English/German based players, he’ll we even left English based players on the bench in these matches in favor of LOI based players.
Well that's not a very logical viewpoint. The league was better in the 2000s than in the 2010s because it did provide players for the national team. However, to provide players for the national team while they were still with LoI clubs would have meant the league being even stronger again, which it wasn't. But we need it to be.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying a drop of 17 places is pretty sizeable.
I'm also not saying that the Norwegian league is equal to the Austrian league - just that it's not that far behind that it accounts for Haaland's improvement. I'll say it again - Haaland would have continued to improve at Molde. I am not arguing against the idea that he needed to move abroad to improve - my point all along is that you can start domestically and move abroad at 20-22 sort of age (Haaland was 19 I think) into a first-team squad (not an academy). I'm arguing most players in fact do this and it is to our detriment that Irish players don't really have that option.
(a) that's 35th, not 37th and (b) that's the ranking two seasons before the season I quoted, not the season before.
What are you talking about? No points are taken away for losing games.
It is far easier to qualify for the EL group stages now, starting from 2011/12 when CL qualifying round teams could drop down to the EL. I've shown you the evidence that the LoI is weaker than now in showing you the ranking. Your counter-argument is to entirely ignore the wholescale format changes which made it easier for champions of smaller leagues to reach the groups. That's not a valid argument.
Why are you happy to ignore last season?
Derry are not the club they were ten years ago, and they will probably be the first to acknowledge it.
It's a lovely sentiment, but not borne out in reality. There's footballers turning pro at 16, so if you want to be serious about having a shot of joining them, you have to be taking the game seriously at 16.
Posting Permissions
Quote
Bookmarks