Youth Player discussion

[pineapple stu]

Fair points, though I still think to say "he was ready years before he was used" is an exaggeration. If we want to start qualifying for tournaments again, then League One isn't good enough. Doing well in League One is the stage where you keep an eye on the guy and if/when he jumps up a division, then you're calling him up.

I think probably the fact he's a defender hasn't helped; we're generally well-stocked with defenders. It's the other end where our problems are - probably because a defender with no technical ability (let's call him S Duffy...no, that's too obvious - Shane D) can cover that by knocking in a few goals from corners, but it's harder to cover that further upfield. And technical ability is where we've been falling way behind Europe for the past 15-20 years.

Here's a very worrying quote from the Miguel Delaney article linked earlier -

A current Premier League manager confided that most Irish underage players “struggle to adapt”.

The article goes on to link that with poor coaching even before the LoI U13 academies kick in. It'd explain why we see a lot of players drop down the divisions. I wonder are Irish players typecast as "old-fashioned no-nonsense defenders" maybe? A niche role found for them that covers their poor technique - but then you put together a national team of eleven players all with poor technique and you get...well, pretty much what we've seen the past decade.

I don't know the answer to that of course. But just throwing it out there for discussion.

[elatedscum]

That's pretty selective. His 22-23 season, he was in the league 1 team of the year and was bought by Brentford that summer. His 23/24 season onwards he was a championship regular. After his first season at Brentford, he was made captain there. After his second season, he was bought by Sheffield United for a club record fee. They were promoted that season and he's been a premier league player since.

He played in two friendlies in 2017 against iceland and mexico (March and June), basically the end of his first season as a championship player. Across the second season where he was captain of brentford, we had 7 competitive games and he wasn't in the squad for any of them. he played his next game in a friendly in september 2018 against poland and then his 4th and final cup under o'neill came in a friendly against norn iron in november 2018.

with Mccarthy, he made his debut in the friendly against bulgaria and was finally given his competitive debut in the 6th competitive game of his campaign after Keogh was in the car crash. That was a week before his 27th birthday and he was an established and impressive premier league player.

To give an example, during those 7 competitive games where he wasn't included in squads while Brentford's captain and playing excellently, Paul McShane made the bench for the playoffs against Denmark and Egan wasn't selected for the squad. That's just bad process.

A) Lack of players coming through early due to issues at grassroots, schoolboy clubs, LOI, FAI etc
B) U21s being managed poorly further harming the players making the transition
C) the ones that do come show the ability to bridge the gap are neglected until they're impossible not to select - and then by the time they make it, they've almost reached their sell-by date but we're slow to pull the plug because of their relative newness and because the players coming after them are also affected by A and B.

[mark12345]

I'm not sure it's an aberration.

We know that Irish players have been going over to England in ever-decreasing numbers since the mid 90s. Brian Kerr's trilogy coincided almost exactly with the opening of the Premier League to all comers, and Irish players starting to get squeezed out. I think the decline has been linear since then, partly because we've done feck all to address it - in fact, we've actively failed to keep up with best junior coaching standards here, which would also explain why the players just aren't there.

Our U21s results have been appalling the past 15 years. (Apart from the most recent campaign, where we still didn't actually qualify) It's not just that we've never qualified for the Euro U21s ever, it's that for 2006/07/09/11, say, we won four qualifying games of 28, including no away games. That's - roughly - the era of players you'd be looking at blooding at senior level after Euro 2012. Again, it's harder to summarise qualifying squads because there's more of them than finals squads, but for example, here's the final qualifying game of 2011 qualifying. Coleman, Brady and Hourihane are the only full internationals out of those 14 I think. The players are -

Stephen Henderson - now with Palace, but has played four games in the last six seasons
Séamus Coleman - 59 caps
Brendan Moloney - retired in 2018 with injury. Was with Northampton
Rob Kiernan - US second tier
Séamus Conneely - Accrington Stanley
Richie Towell - Salford
Conor Hourihane - 24 caps
Conor Clifford - Bray
Adam Rooney - Solihull Moore. Could well have been capped while flying at Aberdeen.
Robbie Brady - 57 caps
Graham Carey - CSKA Sofia
Shane McEleney - Finn Harps
Danny Kearns - Cliftonville
Joe Mason - MK Dons

Maybe Rooney deserved a cap, but all the rest have either (a) come through to the senior squad or (b) barely played above the third tier.

You could run that experiment for a variety of squads but I don't think you'd find too many who got away.

Andy Reid and Gary Doherty both had 80 senior club appearances when he made his international debut. Douglas and Quinn had 50 senior games. We barely have that in the squad at the moment.

So I do think it is the case that we've had very few decent young players coming through, and the questions then have to be asked why that is. Fewer players going to England is one. No professional environment domestically for the past decade or so is another. Poor coaching here is a third. Miguel Delaney in one of his articles says that Irish players don't have the technical ability to step up to the mark in England. I think we're seeing all that come home to roost. And it's a huge job to fix.

Glad to see Graham Carey mentioned. For me, he should have been picked for the Serbia and Luxembourg games. He is a very creative player, not quite Wes Hoolahan, but probably the nearest thing we have to him at the moment.

[tetsujin1979]

Glad to see Graham Carey mentioned. For me, he should have been picked for the Serbia and Luxembourg games. He is a very creative player, not quite Wes Hoolahan, but probably the nearest thing we have to him at the moment.

Might not have been able to travel from Bulgaria. they've had a massive surge in COVID cases recently

[passinginterest]

I'm in the camp of 'cap them if they're showing any promise' and hope for the best. It's what we've seen Wales do, when they went through a terrible time in the doldrums and it eventually paid off. I think the international exposure can only be good for players career development. It has to be easier for an agent to find a club for a promising 20 year old full international, who might be out of contract in the premier league or a top championship side, where he hasn't fully broken through, than for the same player if he's only ever played at under 21 level.

In terms of brining players through, yes the best players from the squads quoted eventually made it to senior level, but I suppose the argument is, they didn't start winning many caps until their later 20s, when they could have been picked in squads and friendlies much sooner, over players who were older but had probably reached their ceiling. Too often when an important player was missing the only alternative would be almost completely untested because the squads had so little turnover and so little opportunity was given to alternative in friendlies or even nations league more recently.

On a related note, maybe it was another thread where the number of our players not starting after the international break was pointed out, are we at a point where we need to worry a bit less about the level players are at and more about the ones playing regularly and in form? Would we be better having a form League One forward in the squad, like Scully, than a Long who's hardly kicking a ball? Obviously the very top level players might get away with not playing all the time (Coleman might be the only example we have at the moment) but outside of that, is there any real benefit to picking a player with a few minutes off the bench in the Championship over a player in form and flying fit in a lower league or a European League or even the League of Ireland?

[zero]

I'm sure stats can be found to contradict me but I feel there's a big gap between L1 and championship standard. Last year Rotherham, Wycome and Coventry were promoted from L1. They are 3 of the bottom 4 clubs in the championship at the time of writing (ok Rotherham do have a few games in hand).

I've mentioned seperately that Collins and Paddy Madden had formidable scoring records in L1 that didn't translate to the championship. Obviously there are lots of other factors...

[RiffRaff]

Glad to see Graham Carey mentioned. For me, he should have been picked for the Serbia and Luxembourg games. He is a very creative player, not quite Wes Hoolahan, but probably the nearest thing we have to him at the moment.

Did he play under Kenny for Bohs?

[passinginterest]

I'm sure stats can be found to contradict me but I feel there's a big gap between L1 and championship standard. Last year Rotherham, Wycome and Coventry were promoted from L1. They are 3 of the bottom 4 clubs in the championship at the time of writing (ok Rotherham do have a few games in hand).

I've mentioned seperately that Collins and Paddy Madden had formidable scoring records in L1 that didn't translate to the championship. Obviously there are lots of other factors...

No doubt there's a gap in quality, but the question is, especially with Kenny's extremely demanding high tempo press (no coincidence we've died in the second half of most games), do we need players who are fit and in form more than players who might be a better quality but are not playing?

[pineapple stu]

I think if we're debating the merits of a second-tier sub and a third-tier starter, then we're definitely starting to understand why we're struggling against the likes of Luxembourg...

[passinginterest]

I think if we're debating the merits of a second-tier sub and a third-tier starter, then we're definitely starting to understand why we're struggling against the likes of Luxembourg...

Unfortunately, I think that's genuinely where we're at. We have one regular top half premier league player. A few who are in and out of bottom half teams or on the books of top half teams. A few championship regular starters and outside of that there's not a lot. Unless there's a lot more players starting next season in the premier league and the championship, it's a legitimate question as to what's going to work better for the team. Subs, barely playing at a higher level, or fit and in form players from a lower level? Sadly, we don't have many players who are undroppable, especially at the highest level.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that alright - and to me, it indicates a problem that can't be fixed by changing manager or by capping younger players earlier. We mayn't be following best practice in those regards, but our issues are way more fundamental. And will probably take longer to fix too.

[mark12345]

Did he play under Kenny for Bohs?

Can't remember to be honest.

[Charlie Darwin]

No, it was Fenlon who signed him.

[EalingGreen]

it's a little of A and a little of B.

John Egan was ready years before he was used. Going back to the days of Trap, Coleman and McClean and McCarthy were underused in their early years. Certainly had O'Neill been more aggressive with Declan Rice, he'd be an Irish player now, perhaps Grealish too. Matt Doherty was 21 when O'Neill took over. He was probably ready in the October or November windows in 2014 (age 22) and yet he made his debut in 2018 (age 26). He tended to persist with older players (thinking Stephen Ward, Daryl Murphy etc.) when there were opportunities to integrate younger options. It meant that guys who should have been competing for places in the first team were only arriving in the squad uncapped and in their prime. Arguably a dysfunctional 21s didn't really help, promising players like Jack Byrne were abandoned in favour of non-leaguers like Connor Dimaio

It seems Kenny has been more aggressive with guys like Molumby than managers in the past were. Picking Idah and Parrott over the likes of Hogan and Maguire is probably something previous managers wouldn't have

<EDIT FYI wrote that before reading your last post>

I think you may be overlooking two crucial factors when comparing O'Neill/Kenny and their attitude to youth.

When O'Neill took over, Delaney knew that the FAI's finances were looking sick. So he will have given O'Neill one instruction, and one only: Qualify for the Euro's (for the money). Which is why O'Neill took little interest in bringing through players for the future.

While Kenny may have been told (or worked out for himself) that short of an absolute catastrophe, the FAI can't afford to sack him. Therefore he knows he's got time to work with the youngsters, which suits his preferred approach anyhow.

[samhaydenjr]

I think that's more of the same overestimating of young players though. Until they start establishing themselves as first-team players at a suitable level (top two tiers in England) then they're just prospects.

Let's go back to the summer of 1998 and make the same point -

Goalkeepers
Derek O'Connor; Paul Whelan; Alex O'Reilly; Dean Delaney; Joe Murphy;
David Madden

Defenders
David Worrell; Robbie Ryan; Colin Hawkins; Aidan Lynch; David Whittle;
Thomas Heary; Keith Doyle; Richard Dunne; Jason Gavin; Barry Quinn;
Ryan Casey; John Thompson; Keith Foy; Jim Goodwin; John O'Shea;
Dessie Byrne; Brian O'Callaghan; Ian Rossiter

Midfielders
Stephen Murphy; Niall Inman; John Burns; Micky Cummins; Thomas Morgan;
Damien Duff; Alan Kirby; Stephen McPhail; Ronnie O'Brien; Alan Quinn;
Paul Donnelly; Richie Partridge; Andy Reid; Shaun Byrne; Brendan McGill;
Liam Miller; Jonathan Douglas; David Warren; Kevin Grogan

Forwards
Neale Fenn; Glen Crowe; Dessie Baker; Trevor Molloy; Gary Doherty;
Ger Crossley; Robbie Keane; Liam George; David Freeman; David McMahon;
Graham Barrett

Many of those names are forgotten now. Really only four - O'Shea, Dunne, Duff and Keane - were mainstays at international level. Three were squad players - Doherty, Miller, Reid. A few made a handful of caps. Most never made it at all.

Yet that's the three squads from the U20 World Cup in 1997 (semi-final), U-18 European championships in 1998 (winners) and U-16 European championships in 1998 (winners)

And of that, Duff and Keane were already being talked up and were way ahead of anyone we have now. Keane had scored 11 goals in his first senior season with Wolves, and Duff was one of the youngest, if not the youngest, players at the U20 World Cup; he was still eligible for the 1999 competition, at which some commentators reckoned Ireland had the best chance out of all the European teams. (In the event, only Spain went further than us)

That's a good place to make a comparison, Stu, as it was the last time we had sustained success at underage level, which you do really need to talk about a "golden generation". So I do have a few points to make:
- I think this group overachieved at underage level under Kerr - I ran through the names on Wikipedia and found that of the 54 from those squads, by my count 22 never looked close to becoming established professionals at elite level, while I chose all 71 on my list on the basis that I can see a reasonable pathway to them playing Championship football by the end of next year.
- True, only four from that group became international mainstays, but that was enough to propel us to qualification for two major tournaments (three if you count the contribution of Keane and O'Shea to Euro 2016 qualification). And it would have probably been more but for the fallout from Saipan. Of the group I have listed, I would say I am confident that the following will be good enough to play at international level:
Goalkeepers
Caoimhín Kelleher; Gavin Bazunu; Max O'Leary

Defenders
Mark McGuinness; Dara O'Shea; Andrew Omobamidele; Nathan Collins; Ryan Manning;

Midfielders
Jayson Molumby; Joe Hodge; Will Smallbone; Will Ferry; Conor Coventry; Jason Knight; John Joe Patrick Finn;

Forwards
Aaron Connolly; Evan Ferguson; Mipo Odubeko; Troy Parrott; Adam Idah; Anthony Scully; Michael Obafemi;

So that's essentially a full squad and I think a number of the others will also break through, just not sure which ones in particular
- And one final thing, in response to those who might think that the likes of Dan Crowley or Chiedozie Ogbene should be ruled out because they've dropped to League One, I will note that Wes Hoolahan was playing in League One just before he turned 27, while Conor Hourihane didn't play at Championship level until he was 25

So based on that, I think there is still reason to be optimistic about the National team for the next decade, in spite of recent disasters

[pineapple stu]

Certainly it was a golden generation, and certainly you could hardly accuse Kerr of having underachieved. And yes, the likes of Aidan Lynch or Thomas Morgan were never going to trouble the national team. But they were decent squads nonetheless; we were also semi-finallists at a couple of tournaments at the same time and that's all too much to be pure chance. I think by any objective analysis, it was a stronger underage batch than today.

But I think the lesson from any generation of players - and we're talking players in a 3-year range here, give or take - is that they rarely if ever deliver such a glut of players as you're talking up there. There'll be Richie Partridges or Kevin Grogans or Barry Quinns. I'm not sure you say Joe Hodge has a reasonable chance of playing Championship football in the next 18 months when he's currently on loan at Derry at the bottom of the LoI. (Just to pick one example)

I do think things will get worse but that they will then improve. Part of the problem is that while there are more decent young players out there than there has been in a while, they're being asked to step up too soon. Parrott and Bazunu and Connolly and Travers others wouldn't be close to the squad in ordinary circumstances. They'll all improve - not necessarily to the required standard. I just worry the improvement, when it comes, will only be enough to lift us up to moderate third seeds.

[CSAD]

Certainly it was a golden generation, and certainly you could hardly accuse Kerr of having underachieved. And yes, the likes of Aidan Lynch or Thomas Morgan were never going to trouble the national team. But they were decent squads nonetheless; we were also semi-finallists at a couple of tournaments at the same time and that's all too much to be pure chance. I think by any objective analysis, it was a stronger underage batch than today.

But I think the lesson from any generation of players - and we're talking players in a 3-year range here, give or take - is that they rarely if ever deliver such a glut of players as you're talking up there. There'll be Richie Partridges or Kevin Grogans or Barry Quinns. I'm not sure you say Joe Hodge has a reasonable chance of playing Championship football in the next 18 months when he's currently on loan at Derry at the bottom of the LoI. (Just to pick one example)

I do think things will get worse but that they will then improve. Part of the problem is that while there are more decent young players out there than there has been in a while, they're being asked to step up too soon. Parrott and Bazunu and Connolly and Travers others wouldn't be close to the squad in ordinary circumstances. They'll all improve - not necessarily to the required standard. I just worry the improvement, when it comes, will only be enough to lift us up to moderate third seeds.

You do realize most of that batch were semi finalists in the Euros in 2019 at u19 level...and that’s even while missing 15 players to pre season, nostalgia is a beautiful thing. Also we’re Quarter finalists on 2 occasions as u17 players losing out to the winners in 2018 and runners up in 2017.

We need to analyze these players as if they are bananas, some of these young players who are in league one for instance aren’t bad prospects, they are just very green bananas that need time to grow.

To people worried about Parrott let me remind you 2 of the 4 strikers in England’s squad (Calvert-Lewin and Watkins) were playing league 2 at the same age, for some players they just need more time to grow but once that happens they may end up being the tastiest bananas of them all, not every kid is going to be Robbie Keane and scorig goals regularly at 17, some will need a bit more time.

[pineapple stu]

You do realize most of that batch were semi finalists in the Euros in 2019 at u19 level...and that’s even while missing 15 players to pre season, nostalgia is a beautiful thing. Also we’re Quarter finalists on 2 occasions as u17 players losing out to the winners in 2018 and runners up in 2017.

That's a fair point (though we were a bit lucky to get that far in 2017 after losing 7-0 to Germany in the groups).

I still think the previous golden generation achieved more than the current crop of bananas, and we need to be realistic about the attrition rate at this level. And I don't disagree at all that the guys need time to ripen at the moment.

[sadloserkid]

You can absolutely expect all bananas to ripen. Expecting the same of footballers is foolhardy stuff.

[CSAD]

That's a fair point (though we were a bit lucky to get that far in 2017 after losing 7-0 to Germany in the groups).

I still think the previous golden generation achieved more than the current crop of bananas, and we need to be realistic about the attrition rate at this level. And I don't disagree at all that the guys need time to ripen at the moment.

We were but it was even enough between the 3 teams behind Germany and we got some good fortune there.

They achieved more but at the same time it’s arguably tougher now to do well as almost all the big nations have got a grip with their youth development in recent years. The only way to truly compare the lot is to see where they end up in the prime of their careers as right now you are comparing players who have finished their careers with kids who have barely begun theirs in a completely different environment to when the previous group developed. Saying the current group is better is being positive whereas saying they are worse is being negative, the realistic view is they are developing and need time to do so and until then all we are doing is guessing as no one knows how things will turn out.