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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa View Post
    The problem with that is it will make it more competitive , which is also what they dont want.
    I'd say it's more complex than that. It's easy to have salary caps etc in sports like American Football, as it's a closed market. If you don't like the wages on offer in the US, where are you going to go ? Football is the only truly global sport. Any league which brings in salary caps etc is just going to make itself less competitive in Europe, as players will gravitate to better money elsewhere - which neither the leagues nor the associations who run them want. Even club Rugby Union suffered this, despite being a sport which hardly any country plays professionally. England brought in salary restrictions, and that just led to some top players moving to France and Japan for better money (obviously the limited number of alternative pro leagues reduced the number of players this impacted). So without global rules on salary caps etc, any league introducing them on its own is just agreeing to make its teams relatively weaker and move the financial arms race elsewhere.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 22/04/2021 at 1:14 PM.

  2. #122
    Seasoned Pro El-Pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    I'd say it's more complex than that. It's easy to have salary caps etc in sports like American Football, as it's a closed market. If you don't like the wages on offer in the US, where are you going to go ? Football is the only truly global sport. Any league which brings in salary caps etc is just going to make itself less competitive in Europe, as players will gravitate to better money elsewhere - which neither the leagues nor the associations who run them want. Even club Rugby Union suffered this, despite being a sport which hardly any country plays professionally. England brought in salary restrictions, and that just led to some top players moving to France and Japan for better money (obviously the limited number of alternative pro leagues reduced the number of players this impacted). So without global rules on salary caps etc, any league introducing them on its own is just agreeing to make its teams relatively weaker and move the financial arms race elsewhere.
    If the top 4 or 5 leagues agreed to a form of FFP or Salary cap together then it could work. The money on offer in the Premier League and top ends of La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and by PSG is liekly far and above what any other clubs worldwide could offer, with perhaps the exception of a handful of middle eastern or Chinese teams and those leagues or the MLS don't have the prestige that would draw the top players in their peak. If UEFA and the ECA agreed on a a real version of FFP and got the likes of PSG and Man City to actually agree to it and abide by it then it would work.

    On the other hand, salary caps tend to benefit owners at the expense of players. Ticket prices etc don't go down.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    If the top 4 or 5 leagues agreed to a form of FFP or Salary cap together then it could work. The money on offer in the Premier League and top ends of La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and by PSG is liekly far and above what any other clubs worldwide could offer, with perhaps the exception of a handful of middle eastern or Chinese teams and those leagues or the MLS don't have the prestige that would draw the top players in their peak. If UEFA and the ECA agreed on a a real version of FFP and got the likes of PSG and Man City to actually agree to it and abide by it then it would work.

    On the other hand, salary caps tend to benefit owners at the expense of players. Ticket prices etc don't go down.
    Firstly - I'd be surprised if all 5 of Europe's top leagues could agree to such a thing at the same time. Secondly- if they did that would probably see a crazy situation appear whereby the rich people who are currently priced put of buying top clubs in the main European leagues would love it, and switch target to the main club in smaller leagues where they could use the absence of the salary cap to propel themselves through Europe. Via clubs like Benfica, Ajax, Anderlecht, Salzburg, Celtic/Rangers, Malmo etc. Thirdly - it would undoubtedly see an exodus of top talent from the major European leagues to Asia, the US and South America instead to maximise their wages. Their agents would be actively pushing for this. Which would also have implications on the international performances of European nations too.

    You can't effectively bring in salary restrictions in only one region within a global sport.

  4. #124
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    A properly implemented FFP is about the best bet you have there, and that's incredibly imperfect.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  5. #125
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    I'd say it's more complex than that. It's easy to have salary caps etc in sports like American Football, as it's a closed market. If you don't like the wages on offer in the US, where are you going to go ? Football is the only truly global sport. Any league which brings in salary caps etc is just going to make itself less competitive in Europe, as players will gravitate to better money elsewhere - which neither the leagues nor the associations who run them want. Even club Rugby Union suffered this, despite being a sport which hardly any country plays professionally. England brought in salary restrictions, and that just led to some top players moving to France and Japan for better money (obviously the limited number of alternative pro leagues reduced the number of players this impacted). So without global rules on salary caps etc, any league introducing them on its own is just agreeing to make its teams relatively weaker and move the financial arms race elsewhere.
    Don't always (ever? ) agree with you, but you have that spot on.

  6. #126
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    If the top 4 or 5 leagues agreed to a form of FFP or Salary cap together then it could work. The money on offer in the Premier League and top ends of La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and by PSG is liekly far and above what any other clubs worldwide could offer, with perhaps the exception of a handful of middle eastern or Chinese teams and those leagues or the MLS don't have the prestige that would draw the top players in their peak.
    There's your problem right there.

    These leagues are in competition with each other, meaning that even if 4 of the big five leagues agreed to a wage cap (and it was not unlawful), then the fifth would see this as an opportunity to hoover up all the best players in Europe for far less than they would normally have to pay. (Man City and PSG would love that!)

    Besides which, the bottom line of the wage slip (i.e. take home amount) is always more important than the top line. Italy, for example, recently introduced a law meaning that footballers now only half to pay half the normal amount of income tax on their earnings. Which explains a load of recent signings, from superstars like Ronaldo and Zlatan, to decent players like Ramsey and Eriksson, right down to average or past-it players like Chris Smalling and Ashley Young.

    And that's before you got clubs eg doing a Rooney i.e. where half of his initial salary at Derby was for coaching, and so outside the FFP rules; and/or paying disguised salaries (see eg Saracens RFC); and/or hiding it in the Cayman Islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    If UEFA and the ECA agreed on a a real version of FFP and got the likes of PSG and Man City to actually agree to it and abide by it then it would work.
    There's that pesky "if" again.

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    On the other hand, salary caps tend to benefit owners at the expense of players. Ticket prices etc don't go down.
    Fair dues, you got both those right.

    For while everyone fixated on the lack of Promotion and Relegation in the proposed SL, what they didn't spot was the other crucial element of the American Sports Franchising model, the salary cap.

    And I have a sneaky feeling that that may have been behind all those players coming out on the Monday to oppose it - the PFA will have spotted it straightaway on Sunday evening, and got on the phone to their members at Anfield and OT etc.
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 22/04/2021 at 4:13 PM.

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  8. #127
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    (If I may quote my own post)

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    I have a sneaky feeling that [a salary cap] may have been behind all those players coming out on the Monday to oppose it - the PFA will have spotted it straightaway on Sunday evening, and got on the phone to their members at Anfield and OT etc.

    "Burnley captain Ben Mee said the news of the breakaway 'shocked' him and his team-mates. A meeting scheduled between the captains of Premier League teams to discuss the issue was cancelled after the English teams withdrew.

    'We were going to have a meeting on Wednesday but, thankfully, it wasn't necessary because the fans took action and I think owners realised what a mistake they had made,' he told BBC Radio 5 Live."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56845861

    Footballers don't usually get involved in the politics (small "p") of the game, unless it involves their pay packet.

  9. #128
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered before.

    If footballers don't want a Super League because it'll impact their bargaining rights, how will a Super League ever happen? Or how big a bargaining chip is it?

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered before.

    If footballers don't want a Super League because it'll impact their bargaining rights, how will a Super League ever happen?
    Or how big a bargaining chip is it?
    Simple really. It could still happen because it wouldn't be for players to decide otherwise. They don't have the power to prevent it. They're the weakest power brokers in the situation (vs owners, fans, associations, governments).

  11. #130
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    What do people think of what happened at Old Trafford over the weekend? Some very angry people in that fanbase clearly. The attack on the police officer was obviously going too far, but do fans have a right to invade stadiums in that manner?

    I'll admit it was amusing seeing elements of the MSM - BBC especially - veer sharply from "fan power!" a few weeks ago to "this has gone too far now, back in your box".
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    I think the fans (or legacy fans if you will ) are deluded if they think the owners could give a hoot about their protests.
    The Glaziers will have been enjoying brunch and the prospect of the 2024 CL revised format adding x% to the net worth of Man Utd as a worst case scenario.
    Bit inconvenient not to watch to be able to watch the match but ho hum.
    If a few thousand of them want to boycott Utd then happy days more room for the Tourist day trippers from all parts of the UK and Southern Ireland who spend more in the shop.
    The sight of the eejits with their 50% + 1 signs was hilarious in the extreme, do they think the Glazers will give away the club to the fans mind you considering the behaviour as an IQ indicator , maybe they do think it.

    Fans (particularly the legacy sort) are an irrelevance to the Economics of the biggest clubs now.

  13. #132
    Coach John83's Avatar
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    Disrupting matches will get attention.

    The violence was too far, but that'll happen if you get a bunch of riled up idiots together.

    Their complaints have merit in the wider scheme of things - I am particularly revolted by the idea of a literally closed shop 'elite' league with no relegation mechanism - but it's hard to have sympathy with people who've cheered on their club's conversion into a multinational merchandising business when they complain that it no longer acts like a local football club.

    Probably their best bet is government intervention, which could be a really populist move. I doubt it's likely, but I don't know.
    Vaccinated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    I think the fans (or legacy fans if you will ) are deluded if they think the owners could give a hoot about their protests.
    The Glaziers will have been enjoying brunch and the prospect of the 2024 CL revised format adding x% to the net worth of Man Utd as a worst case scenario.
    Bit inconvenient not to watch to be able to watch the match but ho hum.
    If a few thousand of them want to boycott Utd then happy days more room for the Tourist day trippers from all parts of the UK and Southern Ireland who spend more in the shop.
    The sight of the eejits with their 50% + 1 signs was hilarious in the extreme, do they think the Glazers will give away the club to the fans mind you considering the behaviour as an IQ indicator , maybe they do think it.

    Fans (particularly the legacy sort) are an irrelevance to the Economics of the biggest clubs now.
    I genuinely doubt the Glazers watch the games. Maybe key ones where there is something (i.e. money) on the line, but not a match who's result has little or no bearing on Man United's season. They're busy people with no natural interest in the sport (and probably only limited understanding of its rules). Why would they bother ?

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    I genuinely doubt the Glazers watch the games. Maybe key ones where there is something (i.e. money) on the line, but not a match who's result has little or no bearing on Man United's season. They're busy people with no natural interest in the sport (and probably only limited understanding of its rules). Why would they bother ?
    Your probably right, i was only really making the point about it might have spoilt their brunch to illustrate how little the impact would be, probably didn't even spoil brunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    The sight of the eejits with their 50% + 1 signs was hilarious in the extreme, do they think the Glazers will give away the club to the fans
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the German 50+1 model about weighing voting rights in favour of the fans on defined matters rather than share ownership?

    Legal protest creates drama, which shines a spotlight -an unnatractive one where potential sponsors, regulators and police are concerned. Repeated protests would cause loss of match day income, maybe points deductions for being unable to fulfil fixtures, maybe further loss of income caused by shipping one or two league places, uncertainly from sponsors that their logos would be visible, an increased policing and stewarding bill - no one factor massively damaging on its own but cumulatively eating into revenues.
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

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    First Team Nah Nah Nah Nah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    I think the fans (or legacy fans if you will ) are deluded if they think the owners could give a hoot about their protests.
    The Glaziers will have been enjoying brunch and the prospect of the 2024 CL revised format adding x% to the net worth of Man Utd as a worst case scenario.
    Bit inconvenient not to watch to be able to watch the match but ho hum.
    If a few thousand of them want to boycott Utd then happy days more room for the Tourist day trippers from all parts of the UK and Southern Ireland who spend more in the shop.
    The sight of the eejits with their 50% + 1 signs was hilarious in the extreme, do they think the Glazers will give away the club to the fans mind you considering the behaviour as an IQ indicator , maybe they do think it.

    Fans (particularly the legacy sort) are an irrelevance to the Economics of the biggest clubs now.
    They probably are but certainly wouldn’t see any issues with fans making their voices heard. Reading the amount of money the owners have taken out of Man United would sicken you. Unfortunately always a couple of idiots who go too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Porto have already said they aren't interested. Benfica maybe? A team from the Netherlands would probably be a high value target alright. Not so sure about the Old Firm myself, I think we (the Irish I mean) tend to overestimate their importance to the footballing landscape. I'm thinking somewhere like Red Bull Salzburg or Dynamo Kiev would be more likely to be invited.
    A few years back Ajax were being talked down in the Champions League as if they were some sort of minnow. AJAX!

    They're a high value target only in the sense of their academy output.

    The absolute cheek of how this proposal had been presented.
    TBH, I was very miffed that it ended so quickly as it did. I was hoping it ended up being some sort of avalanche in European football. Sometimes you just need to see the world burn.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

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    Reserves Bucket's Avatar
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  20. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    They'll be gutted by the poor reception the ESL received recently

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