Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: Irish Youth Development Structures

  1. #21
    Youth Team
    Joined
    May 2020
    Posts
    185
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    45
    Thanked in
    33 Posts
    A lot of good points being made here. Big fish small pond type local leagues certainly need reforming. The calendar switch was incredibly short sighted. I've no preference for summer or winter, but Jesus pick one and have all levels playing at the same time.
    While the LOI underage structure is to be welcomed, it's not perfect. I had to step away from juvenile coaching a few years ago. In the last team I had was one of the best 12 year old players I've seen, he went on trial with Galway Utd and was then asked to join. His mother couldn't afford the €400 it cost to play so he didn't sign. How many more kids have been cast aside because their parents are struggling?

  2. #22
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cork
    Posts
    3,881
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    454
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,478
    Thanked in
    737 Posts
    I'd be interested to know what achievements Dokter has - not having been involved in youth football for a good while myself.

    I mean apart from setting up national underage leagues foisted on already cash strapped LOI clubs with no help, I can't see any sea changes that have come from within the FAI under his tenure - I stand corrected if that is otherwise the case. I'm just interested.

  3. #23
    Capped Player
    Joined
    May 2004
    Posts
    17,462
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,189
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,108
    Thanked in
    2,305 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I'd be interested to know what achievements Dokter has - not having been involved in youth football for a good while myself.

    I mean apart from setting up national underage leagues foisted on already cash strapped LOI clubs with no help, I can't see any sea changes that have come from within the FAI under his tenure - I stand corrected if that is otherwise the case. I'm just interested.
    Me too. As far as I can tell though the Idah/Parrott/Molumby/Connolly crew are the first "graduates" of the first Emerging Talent Programme, and the underage teams seem to be going OK. I think the decision to empower the LOI clubs over schoolboy clubs was his idea too, as was the national leagues at each age group. I've heard supporters of his complain about the U13 league though.

  4. Thanks From:


  5. #24
    Youth Team
    Joined
    May 2020
    Posts
    185
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    45
    Thanked in
    33 Posts
    The U13 league is gone, U14, U15, U17 and U19 leagues now. I'm in favour of the national underage leagues but more money has to come from somewhere so that no kid is priced out of the system.
    If LOI clubs are truly going to replace the English system to produce our international players the kids will have to be training full-time from the age of 16. That seems lightyears away from the current structures

  6. Thanks From:


  7. #25
    First Team
    Joined
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,337
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    191
    Thanked in
    136 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa View Post
    I hope this is the right place for this. ..... But where did it go wrong....

    I guess, like many, I am fairly devestated with the loss to Luxembourg. We were awful, and it didnt seem it was for the lack of trying. The talent just wasn't there. For me, the young players coming through won't bring us to a higher standard than we were 5 years ago (which was already low).

    While its good that we have some young players coming through, I get the feeling its youth for the sake of youth. Its not their talent that got them into the squad, rather we had no other option (Parrot and Coventry have no where near the experience to be in a competitive naional team). It feels like as every other country is making progress we are really standing still.

    Stephen Kenny staying or leaving is really a moot point. I am a big fan of Kenny, but this stick of 'developing a system' doesnt make any sense to me, because simply it doesnt really matter because the players arent here. In a similar vain, reaplacing him wont make much of a difference.

    One person who needs to be gone is Ruud Dokter. He is in the job 10 years, and every year we get less competitve. When he first started, his ideas were already antiquated. The Dutch were already moving off ideas (like tactics, methods) like his when he started with the FAI. ETP teams have not worked. While maybe the idea was okay and soon became just a clone of the old schoolboy representative system. We are a small football association, with a history of giving massive contracts for little more than part-time work. Much of the coaching staff need to be double jobbing within the FAI. Why pay Robbie Keane (who also is able to work in England) and Ruud Dokter massive wages, when their jobs should be done by one person (like in the Welsh FA).

    The only progress I see is LOI national youth leagues. Rovers, Pats and Bohs are doing great academy work. But their are issues here too. Missing U-14 and U-16 teams cause dysfunction in trying to bring through teams, and the gap between u19 to Senior is way to large. But at least this system allows for development from youth to senior football.

    I have some suggestions, 1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI. The FAI has regional develpoment officers, but their roles have to change. Baiscally, the aim of getting the best youth players the best coaching as possible (in a systematic way )(or Have a national academy like Georges Park in England...)

    2) Developing 5-a side football. 5 a side is already culturally built in the country. Develop it for schoolboy football, codify it, and play leagues or blitzs in the off season, as it needs less players and less training. Baiscally a way to encourge all youth to play more football.

    3) Decrease the cost of doing badges. Run more courses. Effort into developing coaching as much as players.

    Apart from wanting to Rant, I want to know other opinions on where we are going right/wrong, and other suggestions that need to be done. I cant see us being competitive for 10 years. The FAI is on the verge of killing the game in Ireland.
    Interesting points you make, but I have to ask something. And to be honest I am really afraid of the answer you might give me. You speak about 5 a side football for shoolboys. Please, please tell me that kids of a young age in Ireland are not still playing 11 a side? Because that went out with the dinosaurs' ancestors in most other countries. It has long since been proven that short-sided games are far better in developing young kids than 11 a side.

  8. #26
    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Teeing off
    Posts
    4,351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,798
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    769
    Thanked in
    456 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
    I hope this is the right place for this. But where did it go wrong.
    Thanks for the thread, there's another similar to this last year I reckon, but no harm. And thanks for the reply to my question above ^ I was trying to see what side you're coming from which is all sides.

    The talent just wasn't there. For me, the young players coming through won't bring us to a higher standard than we were 5 years ago (which was already low).
    This is fair, and it's entirely possible. We've no guarantees with any of the younger generation - I'm not sure any could consider themselves as first-team regulars yet at their current level, but this is to be expected given their age. Bear in mind, that the standard of 5 years ago wasn't all that bad. We performed really well vs Sweden, Italy and for 30 mins against France. The problem was that we were a team getting older, without the processes in place to regenerate. I mightn't have liked MON, and think he was incredibly lucky at times, but 2016 was a successful tournament.

    While its good that we have some young players coming through, I get the feeling its youth for the sake of youth. Its not their talent that got them into the squad, rather we had no other option It feels like as every other country is making progress we are really standing still.
    This is important for a few reasons.
    1 - it's correct! That's not their fault however - which is key to this whole debate, and isn't being taken into account imo
    2 - Assuming that they are not ready - in terms of their ability, their development etc, then what should be done? There isn't a huge Int. standard pool of players that we've ignored for political, cultural or behavioural reasons. It's because they've been deemed not good enough by all the stakeholders - rightly or wrongly.
    3 - this has already impacted on our youth sides, and it is a ripple effect. We lost our possible 21s qualification because of moving these players to the senior squad. that was the decision of the association and the management because of the needs must. But for me it was a mistake.
    On the standing still - this concerns me less. Because when you do nothing, or worse you do the status quo, then v quickly you can be left behind. But on the flipside, any fundamental changes made for the long-term won't show any net gain for a long time, hence your thread here; but once they do start to show gains, they'll be consistent and the change once it starts will come about quickly.

    Stephen Kenny staying or leaving is really a moot point...reaplacing him wont make much of a difference.
    I disagree. For previous generations, the above would more than likely be correct. It might have been brief, but there was a genuine buy-in between staff, players and fans for that 21 side. They are the first - I really should check this ! - group to have come through the coordinated ETP that began a few years ago, and they'll be the link between the national side and the generations of youth players in the system currently and for the years to come. To have someone in the job, who knows how they've been coached, who understands their dynamic and who is publically saying "what you're doing is the right way, it's served you well in your career at club, representative and national level so far, and it's what we want you to be doing" is important.

    One person who needs to be gone is Ruud Dokter...when their jobs should be done by one person (like in the Welsh FA).

    This interests me, because it's something I've seen a lot of on social media. What exactly are the ideas in your opinion that he has introduced that are antiquated?
    Is it the big schoolboy clubs have had their noses put out of joint? I'm biased here, as I don't believe the majority have any real care for Irish football, or the kids they are meant to be developing. It's a business - their business model has been taken away because of your next point below.
    I've asked this question of people before and I've never really got an answer: why (of the "mega-clubs") do so few of them have good senior men's sides, when they have (over say a ten year period) approx 300 kids playing and paying to play for them?
    Compare and contrast the mega-clubs: if they were genuinely interested in a kid, teenager or youth's development, why would you drop your focus at the ages of 16-18? We've always heard the stories of the FA Youth Cup, but in relative terms to other FAI National cups, the youth cups get very little focus and don't have as much prestige.

    The only progress I see is LOI national youth leagues. Rovers, Pats and Bohs are doing great academy work. But their are issues here too. Missing U-14 and U-16 teams cause dysfunction in trying to bring through teams, and the gap between u19 to Senior is way to large. But at least this system allows for development from youth to senior football.
    But doesn't this fly in the face of your opposition to Dokter? Are the LOI national youth leagues not a product of his tenure? I think they've been brilliant, and they are still in their infancy.

    I have some suggestions,
    Good man, suggestions we need:

    1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI. The FAI has regional develpoment officers, but their roles have to change. Baiscally, the aim of getting the best youth players the best coaching as possible (in a systematic way )(or Have a national academy like Georges Park in England...)
    I'm confused - is this not the case already in many regions, and many LOI clubs? My own son - while we were there - was involved with a representative squad who were meeting three times a week every week in addition to club training. I might have disagreed with some of the tactics or choices they made - some general flaws - but couldn't fault the commitment, time or effort, or quality of coaching.

    2) Developing 5-a side football. 5 a side is already culturally built in the country. Develop it for schoolboy football, codify it, and play leagues or blitzs in the off season, as it needs less players and less training. Baiscally a way to encourge all youth to play more football.
    This I'm wary of for a couple of reasons. the first is that our facilities are still lagging behind GAA and rugby. It's much easier to put a small 5-a-side astro in a parish and say "look at what I've given you" in true pump-politics than it is to develop a full astro that has much bigger benefits. I'd wonder about participation levels too. 5-a-side drains a lot of money from the FAI, or local leagues/associations, with the benefits not being felt by the sport. participation numbers are still higher for football than GAA & rugby, but this is as much down to luck and structure in the other sportsd than it is design.
    Participation on the level of what you're suggesting is more something for the DoH or the County Council Social units to be responsible for.

    I'd much prefer to see an increase in futsal awareness, one because of the number of indoor halls we have available in every parish, and secondly because it's something that a lot of the new Irish are aware of from what I've read.

    3) Decrease the cost of doing badges. Run more courses. Effort into developing coaching as much as players.
    I've seen this highlighted as the real problem. Part of me agrees, part of me disagrees. The cost of the start up badges are not prohibitive - and that's all you need to take to get into basic coaching.
    If you want to be a coach, then you've got to be in it for the long-haul - it is a vocation, and it is something you've got to prove yourself in. If you make the courses too cheap, then it devalues it. I think the schoolboy clubs should take a sharper look at themselves to be honest. Before leaving Ireland, I'd just started out doing my badges. I'd been coaching a couple of years - had done well with a modest team at a small club, and had invested in it completely. The club were committed to reimbursing some of the cost. From speaking to others I don't believe this to be the case elsewhere. Part of the problem is that the higher badges cost in Ireland compared to other jurisdictions. I understand that's wrong, and shouldn't be considered as a tax where gains can be made by the association. I actually don't think the FAI could run any more courses than they did when I left.

    Apart from wanting to Rant, I want to know other opinions on where we are going right/wrong, and other suggestions that need to be done. I cant see us being competitive for 10 years. The FAI is on the verge of killing the game in Ireland.
    It's not a rant, it's concern and it's justified. The problem for the new FAI, is that they have to try and recover lost ground on so many areas (womens, schoolboy, LOI, commercial, finances imploding) that it is very difficult.

    I've the benefit of coaching in two sports, and administration in two, including one national governing body. I've seen the exact problems that came to light recently with the FAI replicated in this other NGB, that's why what happens with the FAI isn't shocking. It's Irish society, Irish nature - the love of the nod and the wink, and we repeatedly fail to get away from it.
    That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age

  9. Thanks From:


  10. #27
    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Teeing off
    Posts
    4,351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,798
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    769
    Thanked in
    456 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark abcde
    Interesting points you make, but I have to ask something. And to be honest I am really afraid of the answer you might give me. You speak about 5 a side football for shoolboys. Please, please tell me that kids of a young age in Ireland are not still playing 11 a side? Because that went out with the dinosaurs' ancestors in most other countries. It has long since been proven that short-sided games are far better in developing young kids than 11 a side.
    Thankfully, no, they are not! The structure is good but not perfect.

    3, 5, 7, 9 a side on special pitches from nursery up to 12s I think.
    That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age

  11. #28
    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Teeing off
    Posts
    4,351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,798
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    769
    Thanked in
    456 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by ExoticFruit Stu
    I'm always wary of blanket suggestions like this. The FAI are broke. Are professional coaches really add that much that they're essential? What about appropriately-qualified part-time or volunteer coaches?
    The reality is that it should be both.

    Also, there's only so many players the few LoI clubs can coach. The focus needs to be much broader.
    Correct, but I think there's other issues there that we could link into. Say you're an ex-LOI pro and you desperately want to get into the coaching lark at the upper end. There's schoolboys, schoolgirls, schools/colleges, inner-city, homeless, amputee's, disabled, categories that are crying out for support.

    I think the issues go way beyond the LoI. Miguel Delaney's article on Irish football a few years back was fairly damning and I'd say very little has changed. The SFAI saying "What the **** would they know about Irish football?” when Ruud suggested they start bringing in continental ways of coaching. I don't think any changes to pitch size have been brought in at any level for example? There's no coherent pyramid. There's no clear path for progression. There's an absurd amount of politicking and backstabbing. The whole thing needs a root and branch reform. Starting with ****ing out anyone in the SFAI who has blocked progress in the past decade. (I know that's all very idealistic and the practicalities of it would be much more difficult of course)
    100%. I'd say that Miguel Delaney article had as many hits this week as six years ago. The pyramid is most definitely an issue, but it ties into the funding costs and start-up costs, admin costs that admittance to the LOI entails.

    As big a problem for me, is how it also ties into how public money has been spent on sports facilities in this country over generations. And I don't know how we shift public policy on that, given the rural sway in the Oireachtas, and stakeholder sway in areas such as HRI and Greyhounds. I've no figures but I can think of all the places I've lived in Ireland (Dublin, Kerry, Offaly, Laois, Kildare) the sizeable property which GAA clubs own and manage. There's issues of football's own making that cannot be ignored - mismanagement of funds, tinpot clubs sprouting from other tinpot clubs due to petty disagreements - but in the main, football's frustrations are fair. It's pathetic that public funds are given to one specific sports organisation who in turn can develop an astro-pitch to in turn rent it out to another sports organisation at a cost. It's discriminatory almost, as it keeps the foot on the throat of football. I think it was here that I referred to Sundrive Park in Crumlin - the situation might be different now,
    We laugh at the three sided nature of our main stadiums, but realistically speaking, this is practical and logical, and if we were to consider municipal facilities for field sports, a 3-sided permanent structure is the pragmatic choice to allow for the 3 big sports.

    With regard to the pyramid, it's a huge problem with two sides - the schoolboys issue which the national underage leagues are attempting to address in one respect, but also, we cannot escape the facilities issue. To be a credible club competing within the LOI structure - a Kerry, Mayo or Carlow regional side, you've got to have decent faciliites. Mounthawk Park is a really useful piece of infrastructure for the KDL, but it's in no way suitable to host a LoI first division match, or a cup game of any magnitude. I cannot speak for the others. A pre-requisite should be a properly equipped clubhouse, and some form of covered seated (even if just slabbed) stand.

    In a way, the Luxembourg defeat was good in that it got people starting to talk about the issues we're facing. Maybe it's the rock bottom moment that starts to get people noticing there's a problem. "Kenny paying the price for 'mismanagement and neglect'" was the headline on RTÉ the day after the game for example - and it's right. He is. He may also not be up to the role, but the article makes valid points that have been glossed over for too long.
    .
    Both points are fair. On reflection this week, I think we've still to hit the nadir. It's possible/likely that Randolph, Long, Brady, Coleman, Hendrick will be gone by the end of this campaign (Nov 2021). If we take it that this WC 2022 is gone, and with Euro 24 qualifiers not starting until Mar 23 (or June 22 if like me you consdier the NL an opportunity to be used), then it's a long-time for guys in the over 30 bracket to be hanging around.

    But if we fix everything overnight, then we're still looking at a ten-year wait until players start coming through under a new system. That's ten years of probably hopping between fourth and fifth seeds.
    My nadir point above. In the next NL, we could easily draw Ukraine, Russia and Albania. I wouldn't be confident of surviving relegation, particularly if there are retirees. Obviously personal opinion enters the room here. I think the ETP will ultimately pay big dividends. We've seen that the first batch are quite talented with a number in the MNT squad - either on merit or necessity. The next batch is not of the same standard, but we'll likely see one or two come through, and hopefuily this is a trend that continues. It really should be.

    The other thing people need to start doing is supporting the LoI. They can still support Premier League teams as well of course - but if the general public is going to ignore the LoI en masse as it currently does, then it'll have no money to develop players - and so the team will continue to struggle.
    This is crucial. it's possibly the aspect that will be scoffed at most, but it is crucial.
    take the two arms of the problem:
    - the players being developed aren't good enough;
    - for those good enough, the market is beyond competitive;
    For the first problem, the aforementioned issues should help. I've seen football at schoolboy level, and elite level in two different countries - Ireland and Belgium. Up to 16, there is no difference in the skill levels of our best and their best. None - it's not bias, it's a casual observation (my own kid does not fall into that elite bracket, so no rose-tinted glasses either). So the problem for our players is the developmental stage from 16-20/21 - the age that we've handed responsibility in the main to someone else.
    For the second problem, we've got to provide better markets for our young players to trade in. And for starters that should be in Ireland, with only the true elite heading abroad. It seems almost masochistic that someone like Jack Byrne - a homebird if you believe what you read - is advised to go somewhere - UK where his game is unsuited - it nearly breaks him, before coming back to Ireland to rehab and takes off again, albeit to an area more suited to his ability. I understand that language is used as a barrier/umbilical cord, but we've got to get around this issue. The Belgian league, underage system, and way of life are really suited to an Irish personality, and I know from speaking to others the same applies to Netherlands.

    With rgard to the LoI, I've seen mention of Robbie Keane elsewhere and his contract. Seb Larsson moved back to Sweden to play with AIK. Robbie went to LA - no issue - but then went to India. Darren Randolph is 34 and sitting his arse on the West Ham bench. He's not in the same earning potential as Keane given his career trajectory, but surely a conversation needs to be had with our experienced pros and the idea of coming back to play in the LoI in their twilights proposed?
    Whelan - one of my favourite players - going to Fleetwood Town! I could understand, possibly a mcGeady going to Sunderland in L1 (he's no real link here, and they're a massive club), but a Whelan, Ward, Kilbane going to no-mark clubs in the arsehole of the UK when they could be giving back to Irish football is not-good. And that's where the public come in. We need to be supporting our league in bigger numbers, and particularly in the PD. if you take a 5 game series, the figures should be pushing through the 20k total minimum every week. The FAI need to up their game in promotion; the govt, clubs and councils need to up their game in facilities; but the public need to up their game in commitment.
    That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age

  12. Thanks From:


  13. #29
    Capped Player
    Joined
    May 2004
    Posts
    17,462
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,189
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,108
    Thanked in
    2,305 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    Someone i respect hugely said to me recently that he felt the end of the troubles and the good friday agreement has as a byproduct cost us tonnes of players, and largely eroded national identity amongst the second and third generation irish in england. as in, as long as you were persecuted in england for your name or your parents accent, there was an enforced sense of otherness and a separate identity to cling on to. thought it was an interesting idea...

    i know there are people on here who would have a far better sense than i would, but you can certainly imagine that if rice or grealish grew up in the troubles, they would have been less likely to play for england...
    We’ve a young dachshund puppy at home and we took her to the local cemetery in Kilburn where she met another young dachshund. It’s a popular place to bring dogs because you can let them off the lead safely. The two were having great craic together and they attracted some watchers. One was a retired Irish bloke, in London 50 years. Lovely gentle elderly man. We chatted about how Kilburn had changed and bemoaned the loss of the Irish pubs. Prompted by some recent posts on this thread I asked if he thought the Irish community was changing and I said we were talking about it here in context of 1G and 2G Irish footballers. He said “yeah, look at Grealish. And he’s not even playing for them.” Then he added “I hope he never does. And breaks both his legs”!
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 04/04/2021 at 5:05 PM.

  14. #30
    Youth Team Kiki Balboa's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2011
    Location
    In the shadow realm
    Posts
    174
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    46
    Thanked in
    27 Posts
    Brexit is a covert operation by the FAI to increase the catchment of decent footballers in the UK.....

  15. #31
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Dublin, originally from Limerick
    Posts
    19,380
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    967
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,981
    Thanked in
    2,570 Posts

  16. #32
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    18,389
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,844
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,250
    Thanked in
    3,327 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    I can see geysir and Danny Invincible popping a vein if they see this. People from NI aren't entitled to dual citizenship because of the GFA - they were always entitled to it.

  17. #33
    Youth Team Kiki Balboa's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2011
    Location
    In the shadow realm
    Posts
    174
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    46
    Thanked in
    27 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    With rgard to the LoI, I've seen mention of Robbie Keane elsewhere and his contract. Seb Larsson moved back to Sweden to play with AIK. Robbie went to LA - no issue - but then went to India. Darren Randolph is 34 and sitting his arse on the West Ham bench. He's not in the same earning potential as Keane given his career trajectory, but surely a conversation needs to be had with our experienced pros and the idea of coming back to play in the LoI in their twilights proposed?
    Whelan - one of my favourite players - going to Fleetwood Town! I could understand, possibly a mcGeady going to Sunderland in L1 (he's no real link here, and they're a massive club), but a Whelan, Ward, Kilbane going to no-mark clubs in the arsehole of the UK when they could be giving back to Irish football is not-good. And that's where the public come in. We need to be supporting our league in bigger numbers, and particularly in the PD. if you take a 5 game series, the figures should be pushing through the 20k total minimum every week. The FAI need to up their game in promotion; the govt, clubs and councils need to up their game in facilities; but the public need to up their game in commitment.
    Duff, Damien Delaney and Daryl Murphy have all played LOI at the end of the careers, without adding much to the league (Although Murphy looks a good signing). I think some of these players can be good, adding experience and leadership to a team (such as Joey O'Brien to Rovers). But Duff and Delaney were awful, and having these superstar players for the sake of it meant very little to Irish football.

    I think it could go the other way. There are plenty of U-21 players at British clubs going on loan to lower league teams to get their first senior experience. If the coaching and facilities are there, it could be a much better experience playing on loan in Ireland (playing around family/ playing in Europe/ trying to win national league). Afolabi, Connell and Parrott currently dont play at a standard much higher than LOI, and even English born players might benefit from playing LOI (gaining more of an Irish football 'culture') like Joe Hodge this year.

    FAI could play a role as broker for bringing underage players back to Ireland for loan deals.
    Last edited by Kiki Balboa; 07/04/2021 at 2:49 PM.

  18. Thanks From:


  19. #34
    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Teeing off
    Posts
    4,351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,798
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    769
    Thanked in
    456 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa View Post
    Duff, Damien Delaney and Daryl Murphy have all played LOI at the end of the careers, without adding much to the league (Although Murphy looks a good signing). I think some of these players can be good, adding experience and leadership to a team (such as Joey O'Brien to Rovers). But Duff and Delaney were awful, and having these superstar players for the sake of it meant very little to Irish football.

    I think it could go the other way. There are plenty of U-21 players at British clubs going on loan to lower league teams to get their first senior experience. If the coaching and facilities are there, it could be a much better experience playing on loan in Ireland (playing around family/ playing in Europe/ trying to win national league). Afolabi, Connell and Parrott currently dont play at a standard much higher than LOI, and even English born players might benefit from playing LOI (gaining more of an Irish football 'culture') like Joe Hodge this year.

    FAI could play a role as broker for bringing underage players back to Ireland for loan deals.

    Jonathan Afolabi
    I think you misinterpret my point with the reference to the three you mention. Seb Larsson has been around forever, has moved back to Sweden and is still in their national squad. He clearly has something to offer, and his return to Sweden wasn't a deterrent, nor should it have been. Nor am I suggesting that players come back to the LOI for a wind-down either. That turned the LOI into something of a jokeshop in the 60s and 70s from what I can see.
    Glenn Whelan is a good example I suppose - Fleetwood town ffs. Wes I suppose is another.
    And I agree completely with you on the 21s. We should be a viable alternative, and you'd have to say that Bohs have been good in this regard. can't speak for other clubs.

    it's not an discussion that needs to get us into the trenches either. There will always be questions around the LOI it seems - particularly when it comes to players who are deemed not good enough to be in the discussion for the national squad while based in ireland, but hoping on a plane suddenly deems them worthy. That was the running gag on here for a long while.
    It used to be fitness and the professional training setup, and performance monitoring. that's not an issue anymore. It's now simply down to the talent one faces on a weekly basis.
    That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age

  20. #35
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    32,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,735
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,506
    Thanked in
    2,151 Posts
    Troy Parrott is at Ipswich; that definitely is a much higher standard than the LoI.

    Luca Connell is fair enough, though Queen's Park is probably a move of convenience as they play in the same city.

    Scottish Championship is hard to judge, but results in the Tunnocks lovely biscuit cup thing don't paint the LoI in a great light at all.

    Having these players back on loan would be good, but I think the LoI needs to improve before it can happen regularly. There's been more players than usual coming here on loan this year (Hodge, Halwax, Jaros), but they all seem to be a step or two behind those you mention.

    I'm not sure it's the FAI's role at all to be brokering loan deals for its clubs; that's only asking for rows. In the end of the day, professional football isn't a charity, and we can't expect favourable treatment just because. It's up to the league to reach a position where it has something to offer, say, Troy Parrott, and right now it doesn't.

  21. #36
    Seasoned Pro passinginterest's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tallaght
    Posts
    4,561
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    442
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    463
    Thanked in
    288 Posts
    I think the different seasons hurts us a little in terms of the loan markets from England, particularly for the promising younger players. If our clubs were a bit more consistent with making progress in Europe I'd imagine it might become a more tempting option. I'm sure starting for Dundalk in the Europa league groups would have been great for some promising players loaned back from England. If there was a good prospect of 5 or 6 European games at least, then you'd imagine those types of loans become more meaningful to both parties. It would mean attracting a very high level of talent though, would Afolabi for example have been good enough to force his way into the Dundalk starting lineup last season? Parrot would have been an interesting one at the time and maybe someone like Lee O'Connor.

    Tallaght Stadium Regular

  22. #37
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    32,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,735
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,506
    Thanked in
    2,151 Posts
    Good point on the differing seasons alright.

    I think given Dundalk's main forward options are Dave McMillan (didn't really do much at Falkirk, Hamilton or St Johnstone) at Pat Hoban (flopped in League Two and the Conference), then I don't think you can really question someone whether starting for Dundee is good enough to make the team.

  23. #38
    Seasoned Pro passinginterest's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tallaght
    Posts
    4,561
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    442
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    463
    Thanked in
    288 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Good point on the differing seasons alright.

    I think given Dundalk's main forward options are Dave McMillan (didn't really do much at Falkirk, Hamilton or St Johnstone) at Pat Hoban (flopped in League Two and the Conference), then I don't think you can really question someone whether starting for Dundee is good enough to make the team.
    I think you can to be honest, particularly if you go back to the time, he would have been a player with practically no senior experience, ok the others might not have been particularly successful at a similar level to where he is now but they're senior established professionals with European experience. I don't think you could assume someone like Afolabi automatically displaces one of them in the Europa League.

    If anything, that's the risk factor and possibly why we didn't see Dundalk, or Rovers in their previous Europa league run, looking to bring in those type of players.

    Tallaght Stadium Regular

  24. #39
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    32,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,735
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,506
    Thanked in
    2,151 Posts
    The group stages were just six months ago; Afolabi was at Dundee then as now. Would be different if you were going back a couple of seasons, sure.

    There's a consistency thing alright where a player newly arrived mayn't be ready yet to go straight into an XI. But I guess for me, the question as you phrased it was "Would Afolabi for example have been good enough to force his way into the Dundalk starting lineup last season?", and that just sounds to me like you're overestimating Dundalk's options up front.

  25. #40
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,134
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    708
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,227
    Thanked in
    832 Posts
    A point of digression here but I found it interesting anyways. I was taking a look at international results recently and saw Tunisia crop up. It dawned on me to check if Ayman Ben Mohamed was featuring. He wasn't but he has been in recent squads.

    Anyway, as many know, Ayman was schooled entirely in the Irish footballing system. His senior experience here was with UCD, Bohs and Longford Town.

    He moved to ES Tunis and got into the Tunisia set up. Interestingly, he moved onto Le Havre in France. They have been in Ligue 2 during his time there. More interestingly, I think, at the end of January he signed on with Denzilispor in the top flight in Turkey for the rest of the season. I had a quick look at their squad and it has some interesting names and plenty internationals- Pantmillon (Romania), Diskerud (USA), Rodallega (Colombia) and some other internationals with Togo, Iraq, Mali and Chile.

    I found it interesting to see a player from the LOI and entirely schooled in our footballing system is rubbing shoulders with that diverse a range of international footballers at a European club.

    I don't have any other point or implication to draw from the above.

  26. Thanks From:


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 472
    Last Post: 25/01/2021, 11:02 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 19/03/2019, 2:02 AM
  3. What work is done by LoI clubs in terms of youth structures?
    By legendz in forum Premier & First Divisions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 20/09/2013, 8:38 AM
  4. Youth Development/ Coaching etc etc..
    By Eirambler in forum Ireland
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 30/12/2004, 2:36 AM
  5. Youth Development
    By Scotsman in forum World League Football
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 28/05/2003, 12:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •