Qatar v Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 30th March 2021 - Friendly

[seanfhear]

Kieran O'Hara was on the Manchester United books his whole life until last year, currently can't get into the Burton Albion side.

Is football the Ultimate Competitive Business ? ? It doesn’t matter who ya know if you do not produce on the field you will not be on the field !

[Stuttgart88]

Hypothetically, just say the Qatar game was the first of the three and went the same as it did the other night. Would Bazunu have kept his place for, say, Serbia as the second match? I'm don't think he would or should have, and therefore wouldn't have taken his opportunity. And actually Bazunu has probably missed his opportunity to potentially leapfrog Kelleher in the pecking order.

I think Kelleher was always likely to be higher and will remain so. Bazunu is probably no higher than third.

[seanfhear]

I don’t see all that much between Travers and Bazunu = = Both of them made mistakes, one was punished, one got away with it possibly through luck. It depends on how much any of our young goalkeepers improves and who if any gets playing regularly at the highest level.

Perhaps a bookie can test the faith some of our posters have ?

[pineapple stu]

Yes. Would you put Travers in ahead of Bazunu if there was a game today?

I was asked that question recently on the thread and my answer is that I didn't see much to differentiate them before the matches, and I don't see much to differentiate them now either.

They're both League One standard keepers - albeit that one has two years in hand - and they've both a lot to learn yet.

Randolph and Kelleher comfortably the first two still (if we assume Westwood has effectively retired)

[DeLorean]

Bazunu did enough in his first start to retain his position - he gained trust. Travers did not.

That's not what I asked though. But fine if you don't want to get into the hypothetical.

I don't rate Kelleher (at all) and my preference here is also Bazunu but Bazunu behind Randolph (and Westwood if available).

Fair enough, but I think SK does rate Kelleher. However, if Bazunu had performed better I think he had the opportunity to jump above him. I doubt he did though.

I think Bazunu would have been given the Qatar game, Travers the Luxembourg game, and then whoever played better would play against Serbia

Serbia game is second in my hypothetical situation though.

[DeLorean]

I think Kelleher was always likely to be higher and will remain so. Bazunu is probably no higher than third.

He was definitely higher coming into the week. I think two really impressive performances from Bazunu could have altered that thinking though, but the opposite has happened imo.

[sadloserkid]

The defence likes Randolph too, yet he was blessed not to give away a pen vs Wales and he actually threw the ball straight to Pukki for a goal. That WAS calamitous, but it didn't seriously cause anyone to think Randolph wasn't good enough, unless you're Kingdom

I'm actually with Kingdom on this. I find it so strange that people (not you) are so gung-ho to toss Hendrick on the scrapheap for Knight/Cullen and to abandon Shane Long for one of the goal shy children up front but there's this strange reluctance to cast Randolph aside for, say, Kelleher. Kelleher is playing marginally more ball than Randolph in the same division and their career trajectories are almost complete opposites at this point.

I think Kelleher was always likely to be higher and will remain so. Bazunu is probably no higher than third.

And if Bazunu is nominally third choice is he better served back with the U-21s or sitting on the bench with the seniors with Travers, O'Hara or Westwood making up the numbers in the senior team?

[Stuttgart88]

Good question. I'd have as strong a U21 side as possible unless a U21 is likely starter or match day participant. I'd have Bazunu with the U21s on that basis. I'd have Knight over Hendrick on merit. Cullen definitely on merit. Both are seeing lots of game time. It's a bit different with our forwards. The U21 forwards have disappointed me. I think they need to knuckle down at club level but there's also a case for promoting them to the seniors as they have to learn the grown up game somehow though.

[Kingdom]

I'm actually with Kingdom on this. I find it so strange that people (not you) are so gung-ho to toss Hendrick on the scrapheap for Knight/Cullen and to abandon Shane Long for one of the goal shy children up front but there's this strange reluctance to cast Randolph aside for, say, Kelleher. Kelleher is playing marginally more ball than Randolph in the same division and their career trajectories are almost complete opposites at this point.



And if Bazunu is nominally third choice is he better served back with the U-21s or sitting on the bench with the seniors with Travers, O'Hara or Westwood making up the numbers in the senior team?

That’s the worst compliment I’ve ever had.
I’ll let the 94 jersey hate sit as a consequence

[ifk101]

I was asked that question recently on the thread and my answer is that I didn't see much to differentiate them before the matches, and I don't see much to differentiate them now either.

They're both League One standard keepers - albeit that one has two years in hand - and they've both a lot to learn yet.

Randolph and Kelleher comfortably the first two still (if we assume Westwood has effectively retired)

Both Travers and Bazunu have a lot to learn - agree. But if we are choosing between the two, and choosing between two League One standard keepers, is the match sharp option not the better choice?

I think Kelleher has (serious) weakness with balls across his body and has a tendency to be too "narrow" (Travers in contrast is good at filling out the goals (if that makes sense)). But agree Randolph and Kelleher are Kenny's first two choices.

[pineapple stu]

To be honest, to be choosing among three League One keepers is a Hobson's Choice to me.

I think Kelleher should play at least one of the mooted friendlies against Andorra/Hungary, and probably Randolph the other. Then September is a while away yet and it's too early now to say who I'd want as third choice keeper.

[elatedscum]

Actually, just to put that academy team in perspective, Liverpool used 13 players against us -

Lawrence Vigoloux - 0 senior Liverpool games, now at Leyton Orient (L2)
Connor Randall - 8 games, now at Ross County (SPL)
Matthew Virtue-Thick - 0 games, now at Blackpool (L1)
Rafa Paez - 0 games, now at Istra (Croatian top flight)
Tom Brewitt - 0 games, now at Tacoma Defiance (US second tier)
Sam Hart - 0 games, now at Southend (L2)
Sergi Canos - 1 game, now at Brentford (Champ)
Will Marsh - 0 games, now at Northwich (North West Counties League)
Madger Gomez - 0 games, now at Doncaster (L1)
Jack Dunn - 0 games, now at Warrington Town (Northern Premier League)
Jerome Sinclair - 5 games, now at CSKA Sofia (Bulgaria)
Cameron Brannagan - 9 games, now at Oxford (L1)
Samed Yesil - 2 games, now at Homburg in the German fourth tier

That's just one academy team picked at random - and it's a convenient time in the past that you can properly evaluate the players' subsequent careers - but you'll find a fair few like that I'd say.

That’s a bit misleading because generally speaking the more talented kids will join the first team’s pre-season tour. So you probably would have had players like Trent Alexander Arnold, Conor Coady, Brad Smith, Jordan Rossiter, Jordan Ibe, Joao Teixeira, Thiago Ilori, Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria, Ryan Kent, Harry Wilson with the senior team. All the more talented group. At that stage, Branagan was the only lad who had a chance at Liverpool from the 13. The likes of Yesil and Virtue had injuries derail their careers. Sinclair had an agent who ruined his development. The likes of Hart and Marsh were barely good enough to reach that level. So you’re almost comparing apples with oranges.

Kelleher has probably been with the senior pre-season group since Klopp’s first pre-season in 2016 or the year after in 2017.

[seanfhear]

At least we have some genuine potential between the sticks. We would be very unlucky not to get a good goalkeeper ( or even two) from this potential. If only we had the same potential in every other position.

[pineapple stu]

That’s a bit misleading because generally speaking the more talented kids will join the first team’s pre-season tour. So you probably would have had players like Trent Alexander Arnold, Conor Coady, Brad Smith, Jordan Rossiter, Jordan Ibe, Joao Teixeira, Thiago Ilori, Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria, Ryan Kent, Harry Wilson with the senior team. All the more talented group. At that stage, Branagan was the only lad who had a chance at Liverpool from the 13. The likes of Yesil and Virtue had injuries derail their careers. Sinclair had an agent who ruined his development. The likes of Hart and Marsh were barely good enough to reach that level. So you’re almost comparing apples with oranges.

Fair point. I picked it as an example and to help a bit of talk on the topic.

But pick the names you have there - TAA is obviously world class, and it'd be great if Kelleher/Bazunu went on a similar career path.

Coady is a decent Premier League defender.

Brad Smith is in the MLS. Rossiter is at Fleetwood. Ibe is at Derby. Teixeira is a squad player at Feyernoord. Ilori is at newly-promoted Lorient. Ojo is at Cardiff. Ejaria is at Reading. Kent is at Rangers. Wilson is Cardiff.

So of the players you've named, two are genuinely good, and the rest are in and around Championship level at best. And there's no reason Kelleher/Bazunu couldn't pick up an injury or get a bad agent either.

So I think that helps back up my argument against lofty9's suggestion we could be looking at two of the top keepers in Europe in the next few years. We need to be realistic about the future of academy prospects, and how the odds are stacked against even Liverpool/Man City academy players reaching the very top.

[John83]

Who actually thinks and has been saying Qatar are decent, go back over their results, bar the Asian cup and there's some very poor results. They are a poor side, but so are we are the minute.

Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).

[seanfhear]

Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).

If Doherty doesn’t find form soon he will have to try playing Centre-back of get a move away from Tottenham. I wonder will Mourinho and his Portuguese agent last much longer at Spurs !

[paul_oshea]

Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).

I do think peoples opinions are levelling out, around where we are at. I also think the players we have now just dont have the ability to play the way Kenny wants. He's banking on the younger lads from his time at the 21s, moulding them into the style and system he wants to play. But boys and mens football is very different, he has no guarantee any of them will amount to consistent senior internationals. And I think its pretty clear after 11 games, that the players haven't been able to adapt to what he wants.

It will be interesting to see how the 9 day training camp goes, if he serves some ultimatums, and who doesn't show up.

[ontheotherhand]

Because you specifically asked me to compare Bazunu and Travers. I said before the matches that they were both League One level keepers and I didn't see much between them. But if you ask the question, then I have to point out that there's not a lot I can go on by way of direct comparison - hence the point that Bazunu (who has made his own errors out of nothing, by and large) could well have played worse than Travers in the game we were under most pressure in.


Actually, that's no true on Travers - he started backtracking as soon as it became a risk too, but the issue was he'd strayed far too far off his line and couldn't get back in time. I don't agree the Lux lob was more audacious though. Mitrovic's lob was far better executed - the flight of the ball was lower, giving less time to react, and it was into the far corner, meaning the keeper had more distance to make up. But certainly Bazunu dealt better with that threat, sure.


They're not forgotten. Stutts put one of them down to luck actually. But keepers are there to make saves. Travers' save v Serbia is also forgotten. It's when they make mistakes that you can really judge them.


This argument - or variants on it - has come up a few times now and I've not seen anything to back up the idea that Bazunu is a great goalkeeper playing with ten incompetents. For example (and happy to be corrected on any of these stats of course), in 28 league games, he's been named on the League One Team of the Week once. He's won the club's PotM award once, and that was in a month where their only goal was at 4-0 down, so effectively half the team had no chance straight off. Rochdals have one Young Player of the Month award winner this season, but it wasn't Bazunu. The thread on him here notes nothing much else other than two poor games, one against Swindon and one against Fleetwood; his error against Swindon in passing straight to an opposition player was replicated against Qatar, so I don't think you can simply say "He'll study it and learn from it and not make the same mistake again"

So I'm happy to say that he's League One standard. And again, that's good for a developing 19-year-old, but there's no point making him out to be better than he is at the moment. And it's not to have a dig at the guy either, but just to bring some balance into this discussion.


Nonsense. He bailed us out when we had three keepers injured. He's not remotely ready to be first choice. Honestly, take off the green and white blinkers and you'll see that. For me, the Qatar game in particular was Kevin Kilbane in Iceland stuff.

The suggestion to make him number 1 was tongue in cheek stu. I think we agree that he made mistakes and needs to develop. We disagree on some of the errors being worthy of howler status and on the relative use of judging him on being ready to be #1 when he is 19 and auditioning to be #3 or maybe #2. I took way more positives from his performances over the two games while I agree that he was ropey against Qatar. He still had bright patches in that game though and if he was playing a different position we might not even be commenting.

I wouldn't put a ton of stock in Rochdale's nominees for young player of the month either. He's a loan signing. They are hardly going to get very excited about him unless there's scope to sign him. I've scanned their forum since he got there and it's a mixed bag. But again, he's 19 and frequently exposed playing behind the worst team in that league. Bound to be under focus.

[pineapple stu]

Well I can agree with most of that.

The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.

[ontheotherhand]

Well I can agree with most of that.

The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.

Absolutely. I'm preparing a full doc of all your mistakes since you started posting about my Gavin. Leave him alone!

Surprised I've posted so much about Ireland games to be honest. I used to love following the national team but it went sour for me for various reasons and I just stuck to LoI. At least Kenny and this batch of young players makes things interesting again. For me at least.