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Thread: Qatar v Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 30th March 2021 - Friendly

  1. #201
    Coach John83's Avatar
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    I've also been sceptical about the high praise Bazunu's drawing here, and I just want to clarify that what I'm talking about is the here and now, and not his potential. He could be a great keeper yet. I think he isn't, and there's no shame in that at 19.

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Nope. I'm just calling it as I see it.


    I've repeatedly acknowledged that he's 19 and on loan for development. And right now, in that context, he's on loan at Rochdale and conceding two goals a game.


    I'll have to disagree on this one tbh (and with Stutts, and it's rare for me to disagree so much with a fellow keeper!). I don't think he could have been sure when committing to coming for the ball that dropping it was safe. I'm not entirely sure he didn't collide into his own player and lose control of the ball either. I don't think he should have come for it full stop. And coupled with the other rushes of blood - the foul early on, and the instance v Luxembourg - you can see how a pattern starts to emerge. For me, it's three instances in two games where for long spells we weren't under huge pressure.


    I don't think it would have been an unreal save. I think it would have been a very good save - but there's keepers there who'd have saved it. It was a good two feet inside the post for example. Was his starting point a step too much to the left? I don't know. I certainly don't blame him for the goal, but I don't think it would have been an unreal save had he kept it out.


    But this is the point. In the context of him playing international football right now, of course I'm judging his current ability. I know he's not the finished article, of course, but my point then becomes that I think he shouldn't be in the side until he's a stronger player. I've no doubt he'll become a stronger player, probably over the next 12 months. But right now, I think on balance, he's not ready.


    It's interesting that his most vocal defenders seem to all be Rovers fans. I think there's a bit of a bias there to be honest. Which I can understand; I've the same bias for Conor Sammon in an Ireland jersey.
    Well we disagree on the relative use of judging him on being ready or not right now. He's not playing now because he is ready, he's playing because we need him due our 1st and 2nd choices being out. The whole team is inexperienced and learning. His ceiling is much higher than the others in my (limited) opinion and he's only made easily fixed errors. Rushes of blood to the head as you say. He will go in, study the tape, be calmer next time etc. For the goals I'm sure he will work on his positioning. This is a lad who was studying Kieran Sadliers penalties on the bus to the Cork game...before saving one. He learns and applies.

    IF you were judging him more on his suitability to be #2 or 3 would you say he is ahead or behind Travers?

    And yes of course I have a bias. I'm a huge fan of the kid. He was absolutely stellar for us. But maybe Rovers fans also know a bit more about him and see the errors as opportunities for growth rather than signs of weakness. The more he plays the fewer mistakes he will make...to a point of course...even Randolph makes enough errors that he doesn't actually even play first team football......

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  5. #203
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    Bazunu way ahead of Travers for me. Travers had his big audition and cost us at least one goal, Bazunu didn't cost us any, made some decent saves and looked like a guy who will get better and better.

  6. #204
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    He's not playing now because he is ready, he's playing because we need him due our 1st and 2nd choices being out.
    Absolutely. Add Westwood in there and it's our first three choices being out. That's a lot.

    Is his ceiling higher than Travers/O'Hara? Probably is, yep. Will he study and learn from his mistakes? I'd bloody hope so. But that's all the future, and I've always been talking about the now. Well, it's now the recent past, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    IF you were judging him more on his suitability to be #2 or 3 would you say he is ahead or behind Travers?
    I said at the start of the week that I saw Travers, O'Hara and Bazunu as much of a muchness; I was worried about all of them. I don't think the relative views of Travers and Bazunu - one being slated and the other being highly praised - are an accurate reflection of their performances to be honest. Yes, Travers cost a goal, but Bazunu was lucky he didn't cost at least one. Is he better because the opposition were poorer and didn't take advantage? Would Serbia have teased bigger mistakes out of Bazunu?

    If we take it that Westwood is kind of saying he's not really interested, then the squad for Portugal should in my view be Randolph (but I would like to see him starting at club level), Kelleher (he's in an unfortunate position of being number two at a top top club; he'll learn from that, but he could do with a loan spell) and...I don't know. The three remaining options are all lower League One level right now, and it's hard to put one above the other. Kenny has indirectly said (when commenting on McGeady) that League One isn't good enough, and I'd be inclined to agree. But the Portugal game is five months away, and the hope would be that all four young keepers will have kicked on by then - although O'Hara seems to have been dropped at Burton, which puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Where Bazunu and Travers will be by the time of the next match, I can't really say.

    There's no option there that I'd be entirely happy with tbh. It's a poor squad we have at the moment, as I think has been said once or twice.

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  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post

    I'll have to disagree on this one tbh (and with Stutts, and it's rare for me to disagree so much with a fellow keeper!). I don't think he could have been sure when committing to coming for the ball that dropping it was safe. I'm not entirely sure he didn't collide into his own player and lose control of the ball either. I don't think he should have come for it full stop.
    I'd be certain enough he knew what he was doing there! But yeah, overall he rode his luck. He even got away with a Bernd Leno pass straight to an Qatari player's feet. I like the cut of his jib though, so to speak.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 31/03/2021 at 7:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    I'd be certain enough he knew what he was doing there! But yeah, overall he rode his luck. He even got away with a Bernd Leno pass straight to an Qatari player's feet. I like the cut of his jib though, so to speak.
    He has a couple of big brass ones, I'll give him that.

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  11. #207
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    Travers and Bazunu have stuff to work on as our opposition showed them.

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    Bazunu's 19.. and there's lad writing him off.

    19... and lads at Foot know more about his potential than top scouts/coaches at Man City..

    In goalkeeping terms he's not just inexperienced.. he's a baby. It could be five years or more before he even gets back to City

    But for now.. its pretty heartening to think we could have a goalkeeping choice between the City and Liverpool keeper in the near future

  13. #209
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Show me one poster writing Bazunu off.

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  15. #210
    International Prospect Razors left peg's Avatar
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    Whatever about anything else I think it was pretty clear the differences between Travers and Bazunu in presence alone. I said before Serbia game that their respective experience was irrelevant between them and I think that was shown to be true.

    I think Bazunu if he was continued to be picked would give us a few years of heart attacks at times mixed with some brilliance. He definitely has something about him that is Star quality, I just wish we could stick him up front!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
    I think Knight will be a very good premier league player in the coming years. I think Collins and O'Shea will be very decent premier league defenders in the coming years. I expect Kelleher and Bazunu to both reach a high level. Both are exceptionally talented for their age. Goalkeeping is a cruel business. I rate Alisson as arguably the best keeper in the world and for a number of weeks this season, he looked like a poor league 2 standard keeper. All keepers have their bad spells and it will be how those two can bounce back that will indicate how far they can go.

    Parrott is the key for me. I have seen a lot of him and he was a world class 16 or 17 year old. Right now, he looks a reasonably talented 19 year old. Because of the hype and perhaps concerns about his friends, I would be concerned he won't be the great white hope that we thought he would be. He does look shy of confidence so maybe a goal or two and the love of a fanbase could kickstart it for him. With him, my feeling is he will either be a very good pl player or be playing at a very low level. I just don't see an inbetween with him. Fingers crossed he isn't this generation's Stokes.

    Idah has the attributes to be a very good player. He is injured a lot which has put a stop to his gallop. He's at a good club though. My gut says he will be a high level championship striker for most of his career but he could have a spell where he gets into the premier league for a good period. Connolly hasn't really kicked on. His attitude is very poor off the pitch and he is a bit of a confidence player. If he knuckles down, he could be a bottom 6-8 pl striker averaging about 6-10 goals a season. That would mean he would be international class against most teams and would certainly be important for us. By all accounts, he's a gob****e so I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Not sure what the craic is with Obafemi this season. I've seen glimpses of real talent but he is injured a lot and there seems to be question marks about his temperament at Southampton. He could drop down the divisions fast.

    Manning looks like he might be a finge pl player but probably have a solid championship career for the most part. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

    Travers is unlikely to have a career higher than league 1 in the long run imo. The others are mostly in his category.
    Belated thanks for this considered reply - a good read. Unfortunately I was entangled by the slings and arrows of the easily outraged at the time.

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    In response to pineapple_stu....

    Hang on - Serbia played against Travers. So they teased what they could out of a rookie keeper. Travers was arguably at fault for two goals though I'd only blame him for one really- the lob. How is it relevant to ask a hypothetical question about Bazunu being in goals instead? You think Serbia would have targeted him more? For what it's worth I don't think he gets caught out for the lob, possibly even the header which he probably would have come flying out to claim.... We saw him save a more audacious but less predictable lob against Lux. He was backtracking as soon as it become a risk whereas Travers stayed rooted in no mans land. It was one of two or three great saves that night that seem to be getting forgotten for whatever reason. Far more positives to his performance than negatives for me that night. Qatar was a bit different as I think he took a few more risks but again I think he did well overall.

    Playing in League 1 on loan doesn't always mean the player is League 1 level does it? You've brought up his goals conceded whilst he plays behind the worst team in that league as well. I'd class both as fairly irrelevant here. Buffon would concede if he was at Rochdale.

    All in all though I think we are just judging him on different scales and reacting to different things i.e. you think he's being overly praised and I think he's being unfairly criticized...both can be true given the number of posts/opinions... I think he did really well for a 19 year old playing his first games in a ridiculously high pressure environment. I'd make him first choice to be honest. Randolph has bailed us out with some great saves but it's like playing a man down when we try to play it around the back. Kelleher might be the one but I haven't seen him play.
    Last edited by ontheotherhand; 01/04/2021 at 3:04 AM. Reason: missing quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapshot
    Belated thanks for this considered reply - a good read. Unfortunately I was entangled by the slings and arrows of the easily outraged at the time.
    When you reply with answers to questions that aren't asked, and showing little appreciation of the problems at hand, with zero indications of any solutions, you're not so much being entangled by the easily outraged, than distracting yourself while shaving the arrows.
    Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Show me one poster writing Bazunu off.
    Don't you know that you are only allowed to "write off" or "over-hype" young Irish players?

    My personal favourites are when people "write off" a player that they think is "over-hyped". There's a real skill to those posts.

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    On Bazunu, I don't think his performances were perfect and I think George Hamilton on Rte managed to "ooh" and "aah" every time Bazunu touched the ball. It was a bit much. But I think he did well for his age and experience so if he can take confidence and learnings from the experience then it's a win-win. He seems to have serious potential for a keeper of that age.

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  22. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    When you reply with answers to questions that aren't asked, and showing little appreciation of the problems at hand, with zero indications of any solutions, you're not so much being entangled by the easily outraged, than distracting yourself while shaving the arrows.
    What were the unasked questions?

  23. #217
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razors left peg View Post
    Whatever about anything else I think it was pretty clear the differences between Travers and Bazunu in presence alone. I said before Serbia game that their respective experience was irrelevant between them and I think that was shown to be true.

    I think Bazunu if he was continued to be picked would give us a few years of heart attacks at times mixed with some brilliance. He definitely has something about him that is Star quality, I just wish we could stick him up front!
    I think it's a little harsh on Travers. Though I agree Bazunu appeared to have the greater presence/confidence, there's no real comparison between what they had to deal with. Travers had a string of quality Tadic crosses coming towards 'his zone' basically from the off in Serbia, Bazunu could feel his way into the game against Luxembourg pretty comfortably, so no surprise he looked more assured. Maybe he would have regardless, but we don't know this.

    Bazunu's mistakes were far worse than Travers', he was just lucky enough to get away with them, which changes the narrative completely as we know. He probably will be the better long-term option of the two but I certainly wouldn't be basing it on what we've seen over the past week to be honest.

    It goes without saying that both are young and have their whole careers to improve, that really shouldn't need to be pointed out in every post without some posters jumping on it!

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  25. #218
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    Hang on - Serbia played against Travers. So they teased what they could out of a rookie keeper. Travers was arguably at fault for two goals though I'd only blame him for one really- the lob. How is it relevant to ask a hypothetical question about Bazunu being in goals instead?
    Because you specifically asked me to compare Bazunu and Travers. I said before the matches that they were both League One level keepers and I didn't see much between them. But if you ask the question, then I have to point out that there's not a lot I can go on by way of direct comparison - hence the point that Bazunu (who has made his own errors out of nothing, by and large) could well have played worse than Travers in the game we were under most pressure in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    We saw him save a more audacious but less predictable lob against Lux. He was backtracking as soon as it become a risk whereas Travers stayed rooted in no mans land.
    Actually, that's no true on Travers - he started backtracking as soon as it became a risk too, but the issue was he'd strayed far too far off his line and couldn't get back in time. I don't agree the Lux lob was more audacious though. Mitrovic's lob was far better executed - the flight of the ball was lower, giving less time to react, and it was into the far corner, meaning the keeper had more distance to make up. But certainly Bazunu dealt better with that threat, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    It was one of two or three great saves that night that seem to be getting forgotten for whatever reason.
    They're not forgotten. Stutts put one of them down to luck actually. But keepers are there to make saves. Travers' save v Serbia is also forgotten. It's when they make mistakes that you can really judge them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    Playing in League 1 on loan doesn't always mean the player is League 1 level does it? You've brought up his goals conceded whilst he plays behind the worst team in that league as well. I'd class both as fairly irrelevant here. Buffon would concede if he was at Rochdale.
    This argument - or variants on it - has come up a few times now and I've not seen anything to back up the idea that Bazunu is a great goalkeeper playing with ten incompetents. For example (and happy to be corrected on any of these stats of course), in 28 league games, he's been named on the League One Team of the Week once. He's won the club's PotM award once, and that was in a month where their only goal was at 4-0 down, so effectively half the team had no chance straight off. Rochdals have one Young Player of the Month award winner this season, but it wasn't Bazunu. The thread on him here notes nothing much else other than two poor games, one against Swindon and one against Fleetwood; his error against Swindon in passing straight to an opposition player was replicated against Qatar, so I don't think you can simply say "He'll study it and learn from it and not make the same mistake again"

    So I'm happy to say that he's League One standard. And again, that's good for a developing 19-year-old, but there's no point making him out to be better than he is at the moment. And it's not to have a dig at the guy either, but just to bring some balance into this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    I'd make him first choice to be honest.
    Nonsense. He bailed us out when we had three keepers injured. He's not remotely ready to be first choice. Honestly, take off the green and white blinkers and you'll see that. For me, the Qatar game in particular was Kevin Kilbane in Iceland stuff.

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  27. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razors left peg View Post
    Whatever about anything else I think it was pretty clear the differences between Travers and Bazunu in presence alone. I said before Serbia game that their respective experience was irrelevant between them and I think that was shown to be true.

    I think Bazunu if he was continued to be picked would give us a few years of heart attacks at times mixed with some brilliance. He definitely has something about him that is Star quality, I just wish we could stick him up front!
    Having seen little of either I said last week I'd prefer Travers over Bazunu simply because I assumed his presence would be superior. I couldn't have been more wrong. Bazunu has that star quality factor alright.

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Having seen little of either I said last week I'd prefer Travers over Bazunu simply because I assumed his presence would be superior. I couldn't have been more wrong. Bazunu has that star quality factor alright.
    Is that assurance such a great thing though if it makes you come for balls you're never going to reach or make casual passes straight to the opposition CF? He had a couple of ropey moments against Lux but overall a very promising performance, it simply wasn't backed up against Qatar. If it was a more established keeper we'd be within our rights to call it calamitous.

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