Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 24th March 2021 - World Cup 2022 Qualifier

[pineapple stu]

A lot of the ex pros seem to have come out saying certain players were poor and/or the performance wasn't that great but also commenting on Serbia. Heres a good one from Richard Dunne, I'd agree with this , as mentioned we seem to overstate, amplify leagues/players/teams:

https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/so...-40241715.html

Serbia are an interesting side. it's true they've tended to underachieve compared to Croatia, and have even been outdone by Bosnia and Slovenia at times. Amazingly, their club sides have never reached a European group stage, Europa or Champions League. But when Dunne says -

I’d see Serbia and Ireland as even enough in terms of talent but in Tadic they have that extra bit of quality,

I can't agree with that. Mitrovic and Jovic are clearly much better up front than anything we have, and that was a big difference on Wednesday. Vlahovic too, with 12 goals for a poor Serie A side this season. A keeper who's a regular in La Liga (even if we were unlucky in losing three keepers for the match), players playing Champions League at Lazio and Seville.

To say that we're equal in terms of talent is to ignore all of that, and I don't think it's a reasonable view

And when he says -

they’ve struggled any time they went to a major finals in the last 20 years

- this overlooks that they've qualified for three World Cups in that time, which is three more than we've reached. They were an injury-time Swiss winner away from reaching the knock-outs in 2018, and beat Germany in 2010. Is that really struggling for a small nation?

[paul_oshea]

I think some of the criticism that Kenny wants us to play slowly and keep the ball for the sake of it is miles off the mark. I though it was clear the other night that he wants us to play out very quickly, one touch stuff making angles and working it into the feet of our quick forwards. He still wants to get the ball forward quickly and press, not that different to Big Jack or Mick, the difference is he wants (needs) the extra quick pass or two to create a better quality ball than a 50/50 punt. The other difference is he wants the players to realise that when the quick move is not on, there's much more value in keeping the ball and giving ourselves a breather, than thumping it aimlessly back to the opposition.

I'm wanting to agree here, but over the last 9 games we can get the ball out quickly, but theres no support, lads hold it up like old times sake, or win a free and we build again. The passing does appear structured/static passing, we've had many times when counters are on but a player does a circle or pulls back and turns sideways, like we've got it but we dont know what we should do next, that has to be down to how they are training, and that to me appears like the passing is more of a slow build up. It happened a handful of occasions the last night too, where robinson or connolly got the ball and turned around or picked the player to the side instead of the player in front. I'd like that to change, we may not have speedy wingers, or the formation to match but doherty and stevens should be fast enough to get up past - this is where I think we miss coleman out there, he was always speedy and an out.

Ya this playing to the strengths sounds like Ex Pros playing up how we used to play when they played, a very limited brand of football made up of the sum of the parts, the irony being we probably had better players then to play the football we are trying to play now. We don't really have any particular strengths at present i.e. very gifted players in any one position(s) so we might as well try something that perpetuates better football

[paul_oshea]

- this overlooks that they've qualified for three World Cups in that time, which is three more than we've reached.

But no Euros, for which we have qualified for 2 in that time. ANd its 2 world cups is it not?

[Diggs246]

Serbia are an interesting side. it's true they've tended to underachieve compared to Croatia, and have even been outdone by Bosnia and Slovenia at times. Amazingly, their club sides have never reached a European group stage, Europa or Champions League. But when Dunne says -


I can't agree with that. Mitrovic and Jovic are clearly much better up front than anything we have, and that was a big difference on Wednesday. Vlahovic too, with 12 goals for a poor Serie A side this season. A keeper who's a regular in La Liga (even if we were unlucky in losing three keepers for the match), players playing Champions League at Lazio and Seville.

To say that we're equal in terms of talent is to ignore all of that, and I don't think it's a reasonable view

And when he says -


- this overlooks that they've qualified for three World Cups in that time, which is three more than we've reached. They were an injury-time Swiss winner away from reaching the knock-outs in 2018, and beat Germany in 2010. Is that really struggling for a small nation?

I'm not being a bell, but redstar Belgrade won the European cup

[Kingdom]

Ya I didnt want to agree with Brady about Molumby,

your phraseology suggests you DO agree with Brady

he was right in one sense that he wasnt good enough,

criticism of Kenny's selection

I felt he wasn't physically up to the task

criticism

and yes in another game he would have gotten booked for persistent fouling(and probably be less in their faces),

he was lucky by your contention

but he made it difficult for the Serbs with all the fouling, and pulling them down breaking up their play. That is a good thing to have, its a great to thing to be able to do and get away with it time and again.

He's not good, he just manipulated the laws of the game well, with a weak referee not doing his job right.

Whilst he was on Serbia never got into any sorta rhythm really - so he was effective.

but I better damn him with faint praise...

[zero]

I think some of the criticism that Kenny wants us to play slowly and keep the ball for the sake of it is miles off the mark. I though it was clear the other night that he wants us to play out very quickly, one touch stuff making angles and working it into the feet of our quick forwards. He still wants to get the ball forward quickly and press, not that different to Big Jack or Mick, the difference is he wants (needs) the extra quick pass or two to create a better quality ball than a 50/50 punt. The other difference is he wants the players to realise that when the quick move is not on, there's much more value in keeping the ball and giving ourselves a breather, than thumping it aimlessly back to the opposition.

There's been some criticism that we should play to our 'strenghts' but what are they? We don't have a premier league big man who can hold it up, we don't have a fox in the box averaging a goal every second game at least, we don't have one the best midfielders or central defenders in the world. Yeah we can pack the defense, but playing that way and hoping to nick one is more and more unlikely in the absence of a Robbie Keane or Quinn, Walter or even a Doyle. Arguably, the strength of this team is a lot of similar players in midfield and up front, relatively good technically, high energy, capable of passing and moving quickly but not necessarily of dominating a game physically or scoring a load of half chances. I think Kenny is really trying to play to the current strenghts and move away from the traditional ones that to be honest we don't actually have at the moment.

That was the biggest change I noticed between the Serbia games and the previous games. We were much more energetic in the Serbia game - probably helped by having two guys with pace up front. We mixed it up a lot more than we had in for example the Bulgaria and Wales games. That and the change of formation showed good progress.

One area I expect to see improvement in is our set pieces, that will take time.

https://www.football.london/chelsea-...barry-19225837

If we can add a significant set piece threat to our game that can make a difference in tight games. The above article speaks about his defensive side but I understand he handles attacking set pieces aswell.

[Kingdom]

A lot of the ex pros seem to have come out saying certain players were poor and/or the performance wasn't that great but also commenting on Serbia. Heres a good one from Richard Dunne, I'd agree with this , as mentioned we seem to overstate, amplify leagues/players/teams:

https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/so...-40241715.html

Theres another worrying pattern creeping in, that I thought we had kept a lid on. This thing about players coming through and potential and building, have ye not got burned long enough with this? Wishing or hoping and even relying on a player or players to come through? We can't be saying write off this campaign or that campaign and these lads will have experience and the new ones coming through. Just look at hendrick and brady and a few others, they were the future at one point. It doesn't work. We need to focus on the now, we're too small a country with too small a selection to be throwing away campaigns for some future wing and a prayer that we magically discover a few players or all those with "potential" bear fruit and become top players and mainstays of the team. Its living in cloud cuckoo land.

In the meantime though it is good of course to see us trying to play good football. But we need more than just that.

A lot is more than one, it would be fair to say 4 (two is a couple, three is a few, so a lot can be four). You've named Dunne. I'll accept Brady as the second, so you've two more to go. Even in my seldom sober days, as you said yourself, I can be fair.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not being a bell, but redstar Belgrade won the European cup

Before the group stages. No Serbian side has ever qualified for the CL or EL group stages.

But no Euros, for which we have qualified for 2 in that time. ANd its 2 world cups is it not?

Well, 3 counting 2006 as Serbia and Montenegro. Whose records they've kept since Montenegro split.

Yes, we've been to two Euros and they haven't alright. Slightly curious as of course the Euros are easier to reach. I'd credit three World Cups over two Euros though.

[Stuttgart88]

The reality is that the Serbs have almost 2 teams they could put out that are better than our best starting 11 right now. We have 4 lads (Coleman, Clark, O'Shea, Stevens) getting a game in the English top flight and a few warming benches who haven't had a good game for Ireland in 5 years. Of the 4 playing, 2 are rooted to the bottom of the league. The rest are playing or struggling to play in the Championship.

Serbia, first choice 11 or not, had lads playing and doing well in Seria A, La Liga and the Eredivisie and better on the bench. I saw someone say they are playing in mid table teams in those leagues....what we wouldn't give for that! These were in form players who were fighting to keep a place in the team ahead of the stronger players they were able to spring from the bench. While an odd number of Irish people have bought into Sky's marketing around the EPL being the be all and end all of leagues we see the proof of how strong those other leagues are every year in the CL. Italy and then Holland are lower down the order in fairness but I'd take a player playing week in week out and scoring/assisting in those leagues over a lad struggling to get into an EPL or Championship outfit. Form, fitness and confidence are important, particularly in international football when prep time is only a few days. Our midfield in comparison to theirs had 1 lad playing regularly in Belgium, one who can't get a game in the Championship and one who does well in the Championship. And midfield wasn't even our main issue! Up front they had their backup playing. He has 12 in 27 in Seria A. Meanwhile our most prolific option has 2 in 15 in the EPL, a **** haircut and wasn't even fully fit.

I started laughing when I saw us bringing on the triple threat of Brady, McLean and Collins. Has to be the worst lineup of subs we've ever brought on at the same time in a real game. To be fair to Collins he did his job and is probably worth a shot up front but it was funny nonetheless. We are in a huge period of transition. People need to take a dose of reality and realize that Irish football needs a lot of work before we can properly compete with the likes of Serbia. Scotland are a good example to look at. They dug out a result with a similar team to ours with the major exception being that their "weaker" players are still regularly playing in the SPL building form, fitness and confidence.

I agree with most of that. I mean one of their young strikers scored a 30 minute hat trick in Serie A recently.

I don't think Scotland dug out a result. Scotland mullered them in Belgrade only to get hit by a sucker punch from a corner in injury time.

And I like Collins and what he brings to the team. Brady, McClean, Hendrick and Doherty never cease to disappoint.

[Stuttgart88]

I just want to say Brady's Duffy > Clark critique because they scored a good headed goal is just bonkers. It was a good goal just as Browne's was a good goal.

And despite the result, I think the 90 minute performance was considerably better than the performance in the 2-2 a few years ago.

[DeLorean]

Before the group stages. No Serbian side has ever qualified for the CL or EL group stages.

Red Star made the CL group stage a couple of years back, beat Liverpool too. I think that was the only time alright though.

[pineapple stu]

Hm. They've actually qualified lots of times, including this year's EL and the last two CL groups. Wiki has let me down quite badly there!

Edit - in fact, Partizan have qualified regularly too. I'll have to completely take back that statement!

[lofty9]

I think some of the criticism that Kenny wants us to play slowly and keep the ball for the sake of it is miles off the mark. I though it was clear the other night that he wants us to play out very quickly, one touch stuff making angles and working it into the feet of our quick forwards. He still wants to get the ball forward quickly and press, not that different to Big Jack or Mick, the difference is he wants (needs) the extra quick pass or two to create a better quality ball than a 50/50 punt. The other difference is he wants the players to realise that when the quick move is not on, there's much more value in keeping the ball and giving ourselves a breather, than thumping it aimlessly back to the opposition.

There's been some criticism that we should play to our 'strenghts' but what are they? We don't have a premier league big man who can hold it up, we don't have a fox in the box averaging a goal every second game at least, we don't have one the best midfielders or central defenders in the world. Yeah we can pack the defense, but playing that way and hoping to nick one is more and more unlikely in the absence of a Robbie Keane or Quinn, Walter or even a Doyle. Arguably, the strength of this team is a lot of similar players in midfield and up front, relatively good technically, high energy, capable of passing and moving quickly but not necessarily of dominating a game physically or scoring a load of half chances. I think Kenny is really trying to play to the current strenghts and move away from the traditional ones that to be honest we don't actually have at the moment.

I agree, there was a number of occasions in which the keeper tapped the ball from a goal kick and we were out of the blocks like lightening, with Coleman, Stevens, and Doherty getting the ball and running quickly. It was refreshing to see.

[John83]

Theres another worrying pattern creeping in, that I thought we had kept a lid on. This thing about players coming through and potential and building, have ye not got burned long enough with this? Wishing or hoping and even relying on a player or players to come through? We can't be saying write off this campaign or that campaign and these lads will have experience and the new ones coming through. Just look at hendrick and brady and a few others, they were the future at one point. It doesn't work. We need to focus on the now, we're too small a country with too small a selection to be throwing away campaigns for some future wing and a prayer that we magically discover a few players or all those with "potential" bear fruit and become top players and mainstays of the team. Its living in cloud cuckoo land.

While I fully agree that expectations on these players has to be tempered, and I've long railed against that pattern of calls to drop the baby and the bathwater, I think the current situation is a little different. We legitimately lack mid-career players worth a damn.

With McGoldrick's retirement, we have Long (34), McClean (31), and Callum Robinson (26) among the forwards. Maybe you'd count O'Dowda (25) as a left forward, though that's also McClean's and Robinson's best position. I've never seen what the big deal was about him. Idah, Connolly and Parrott are not guaranteed to amount to much, but they pretty much have to be in the mix because there's no one else.

We really only have Randolph (33) as a senior goalkeeper. There's a lot of hope around Banuzu and Kelleher, and I've argued against people here demanding Randolph be dropped for Kelleher in particular over the past year. It's clear though that we need to test our options in friendlies because of exactly the situation that arose this international window.

We're doing okay in defence, lacking in depth at left back maybe, but midfield is looking a bit bare too. I think people are undervaluing Hendrick (29) at least, but I've never seen much from Hourihane (30) to convince me that he's miles better than the early-career players who started ahead of them against Serbia, and McCarthy (30) and Brady (29) have had careers ruined by injuries. None of those guys is on the up any more, and while they have something to contribute, their understudies have to be tested and integrated into the team. Where are the lads in the 23-28 age range?

We had the oldest squad at the last Euros we qualified for, and we're seeing the dividends now: key players have retired, and we have 20 year olds to fill in, whether they're good enough or not, because there's no one else.

[Stuttgart88]

I think some of the criticism that Kenny wants us to play slowly and keep the ball for the sake of it is miles off the mark. I though it was clear the other night that he wants us to play out very quickly, one touch stuff making angles and working it into the feet of our quick forwards. He still wants to get the ball forward quickly and press, not that different to Big Jack or Mick, the difference is he wants (needs) the extra quick pass or two to create a better quality ball than a 50/50 punt. The other difference is he wants the players to realise that when the quick move is not on, there's much more value in keeping the ball and giving ourselves a breather, than thumping it aimlessly back to the opposition.

Yes, that's exactly the point I was just making to some pals on a WhatsApp chat. I think we looked quite modern and accomplished at times in the first half, especially the first 30. We trusted each other to receive a short sharp pass in a tight situation and it worked for the most part, Browne a bit sloppy maybe.

I think we took to the pitch with the message implanted "be brave on the ball, trust each other" but as the game goes on we revert to habit and instinct.

If we score early I'd like to see us continue on the front foot - at least if we can sense that's realistic which it was on wednesday. Think "get the next goal too". We almost never do this against anyone decent. Israel away will haunt me until I die.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm struggling to see which superior experienced players were kept back in order to blood young players for the benefit of some future campaign. Connolly's selection over Long or Collins maybe.

Travers - no option to pick a rookie really
Coleman, Clark, O'Shea - all there on merit
Borwne, Cullen, Doherty, Stevens - all mature and there on merit
Molumby - young but picked ahead of experienced players who consistently disappoint, and Molumby has impressed in green already. Knight is an alternative but obviously not experienced
Robinson - experienced
Connolly - still has improvement in him (you'd hope!) but a fair pick all the same

So I don't see how there's possibly any suggestion that we should write off this campaign and that the selection for Belgrade reflected that.

[CraftyToePoke]

A lot of the ex pros seem to have come out saying certain players were poor and/or the performance wasn't that great but also commenting on Serbia. Heres a good one from Richard Dunne, I'd agree with this , as mentioned we seem to overstate, amplify leagues/players/teams:

https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/so...-40241715.html

Theres another worrying pattern creeping in, that I thought we had kept a lid on. This thing about players coming through and potential and building, have ye not got burned long enough with this? Wishing or hoping and even relying on a player or players to come through? We can't be saying write off this campaign or that campaign and these lads will have experience and the new ones coming through. Just look at hendrick and brady and a few others, they were the future at one point. It doesn't work. We need to focus on the now, we're too small a country with too small a selection to be throwing away campaigns for some future wing and a prayer that we magically discover a few players or all those with "potential" bear fruit and become top players and mainstays of the team. Its living in cloud cuckoo land.

In the meantime though it is good of course to see us trying to play good football. But we need more than just that.

So the other night when I text you the team, you replied saying - looks good - I can screenshot it and add it to the post if that helps. What did you mean by " looks good " I must have misunderstood.

Moving on, we shouldn't be living in futuristic fantasy land according to you and picking potentially good players but the only ones you could really point to as having missed out would be Brady and Hendrick .... who also are an example of this having failed in the past. So which is it to be ?

I am sure SK would love to have those two in their supposed prime underpinning this but their performances have not done that in some time.

Are you advocating Duffy ?
Have you watched his last performances for Celtic before they dropped him ?

That leaves Long. So even if that one example gets past, and its tenuous, none of this amount what you have said. None of it.

So who would you have picked the other night, out of interest ? With another nod of reminder that you were happy at the time with the team that was named.

[paul_oshea]

While I fully agree that expectations on these players has to be tempered, and I've long railed against that pattern of calls to drop the baby and the bathwater, I think the current situation is a little different. We legitimately lack mid-career players worth a damn.

With McGoldrick's retirement, we have Long (34), McClean (31), and Callum Robinson (26) among the forwards. Maybe you'd count O'Dowda (25) as a left forward, though that's also McClean's and Robinson's best position. I've never seen what the big deal was about him. Idah, Connolly and Parrott are not guaranteed to amount to much, but they pretty much have to be in the mix because there's no one else.

We really only have Randolph (33) as a senior goalkeeper. There's a lot of hope around Banuzu and Kelleher, and I've argued against people here demanding Randolph be dropped for Kelleher in particular over the past year. It's clear though that we need to test our options in friendlies because of exactly the situation that arose this international window.

We're doing okay in defence, lacking in depth at left back maybe, but midfield is looking a bit bare too. I think people are undervaluing Hendrick (29) at least, but I've never seen much from Hourihane (30) to convince me that he's miles better than the early-career players who started ahead of them against Serbia, and McCarthy (30) and Brady (29) have had careers ruined by injuries. None of those guys is on the up any more, and while they have something to contribute, their understudies have to be tested and integrated into the team. Where are the lads in the 23-28 age range?

We had the oldest squad at the last Euros we qualified for, and we're seeing the dividends now: key players have retired, and we have 20 year olds to fill in, whether they're good enough or not, because there's no one else.

Very good post and I agree completely with the 23-28 age group observation and I think Kingdom pointed this out before Christmas. We've had a 5 year period of nothing basically and no one coming through. It has certainly dampened expectations and I think this is generally being accepted across the board. Kenny was ballsy all the same going with a full quota of young lads over the more experienced, and his second half subs showed that he was right(even if lack of experience led to the goals, his hand was forced), they had very little impact and little to show, getting even the basics wrong. We have been somewhat forced into this, or a few of the games Kenny has been in charge of, but this is the point I was making these lads were once the future, and I'm sure if you go back 10 years or so we were talking about these lads in the same vein as we're talking about the new group. So while I agree with you that we don't really have many choices at present, we need to be realistic about our campaigns and not just writing them off up front.

[jbyrne]

Kenny was ballsy all the same going with a full quota of young lads over the more experienced, and his second half subs showed that he was right(even if lack of experience led to the goals, his hand was forced), they had very little impact and little to show, getting even the basics wrong.

3 of them, brady, long and collins, were involved in the 2nd goal

[paul_oshea]

3 of them, brady, long and collins, were involved in the 2nd goal

Ya I meant hendrick and brady in context of the names mentioned, and yes I know he started that move, that aside he was very poor. I was happy to see Long and Collins coming on.