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Thread: Shooting of George Nkencho

  1. #61
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    You've dismissed the protester's voice because (bizarrely) of someone who shared the video on social media.

    You've dismissed the criticisms of the protesters/family members/activists/community leaders' comments by just "Exactly what variety of black voices have you taken here? Did you actually have a conversation with anyone?"

    You were the one who suggested black voices (sic) were being ignored, and yet when I highlight them, you're happy to ignore them. You are quite clearly saying that these voices don't count.
    No, I think the protestor's voice is perfectly valid and, in fact, I appear to have put more effort into understanding it than you have.

    The only other comment I've made about that video, apart from the racist source, is that he doesn't actually say what you think he said.

  2. #62
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    It may well be the case that black people, or any other minority, face discrimination by the police. But there needs to be evidence presented to that effect, and even then, there needs to be evidence presented that the shooting of Nkencho was as a result of that discrimination.
    This is pretty much my exact point. Charlie has said that "I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday", so I've taken various views of black people being articulated across the media. None has (in my view) given any legitimate reason as to why they are upset, or why Nkencho's death is worth protesting.

    I agree that the guy in the video is quite probably a minority voice - though he wasn't a lone voice; he had a dozen or more people around him listening and in agreement with him - but it's about adding up all the views expressed to try get an overall impression. In that context, this voice is definitely part of the bigger picture, along with "Black people have to try ten times harder at football to be noticed" (doesn't stack up), the disorder at the Spar and the "Die you white *******" shouts (knackers), the suggestion Nkencho "wouldn't hurt a fly" (but his family had a protection order against him), the claims it's racist to assume Nkencho is a thug (no it's not) or to say he had a machete on social media (but no complaints about those who said on social media it was just a butter knife), etc, etc. So yeah, who shared a video is irrelevant in that context.

    I've looked for voices giving legitimate grounds for protest too, but there aren't any. That's not to say they're not out there - but if they are, how hard is to come out and express them?

    And I've said in thread that most black people probably recognise that this was a case of a guy attacking the Gardaí with a knife, which you just can't do.

    All this, to me, means that the protests - which kind of assume the Gardaí are guilty until proven innocent - are groundless and actively unhelpful, especially in the case where all the evidence (pending the GSOC enquiry of course) is that there was a potential threat to the life of the Gardaí. So for me, the answer to the question "Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened?" is "No".

    And I feel the worst in all this are the media and politicians jumping on the BLM bandwagon and the consequent bias in reporting, which also simply isn't helpful. It can create a perception of racial bias when it isn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan
    It's the same sentiment you might hear from a Palestinian when visiting an Israeli police station, or a gay man trying to report a homophobic attack in some deeply religious community.
    While I see where you're coming from, do you not think it's a teensy bit of a stretch to compare the treatment of black people by officialdom in Ireland with that of Palestinians by Israelis or gays in, say, conservative Muslim countries? (Even in the context that I know it's not you saying it; you're just suggesting that may be the protester's view)
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 16/01/2021 at 11:38 AM.

  3. #63
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    While I see where you're coming from, do you not think it's a teensy bit of a stretch to compare the treatment of black people by officialdom in Ireland with that of Palestinians by Israelis or gays in, say, conservative Muslim countries?
    I think it's a real stretch to compare the two.

    In the examples I gave, we all know there is clear evidence of a history of discrimination going on there. In Ireland, I don't think we have anywhere near the same evidence, if we even have much at all.

    So while he might be expressing the same sentiments, we need to see the evidence to see whether what he was saying has merit.

    The main point I was making is that despite how it was phrased, I wouldn't consider it racism, rather a claim that he doesn't trust the authorities to treat him fairly.
    Last edited by osarusan; 16/01/2021 at 11:44 AM.

  4. #64
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/RTEOne/status/1350569015249395712

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Surprised it hasn't been mentioned already but a postmortem carried out on behalf of his family contradicted the state autopsy and said he was shot six times - twice in the back: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/george-nkencho-shot-twice-back-23375647

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    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    I see a lot of people upset at the idea of him being shot in the back, but is it that material though? The point seems to be that he was considered a danger to the lives of Gardai present. It's likely the decision to pull the trigger (or rather, triggers) was a split second thing. I suppose we can talk about coordination of fire in terms of training - if he was shot in the front and the back, the likelihood of someone else getting hit would have been much higher, and that's a concern in terms of Garda ability to use firearms - but I think it's harsh to judge such decisions from weeks away.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  7. #67
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree with that. If he was trying to open the front door bearing a large kitchen knife for example, the Gardaí would hardly wait for him to turn around before shooting (given that all other attempts to either disarm or reason with him had failed)

    Is the six shots (rather than five) really significant either? A bullet wound is rarely instantly fatal; you can do a lot of damage after you've been shot a couple of times. (Technically, while the report says he was shot five times in the body and once in the arm, is there anything to indicate the shot in the arm didn't then follow through to the body? So six wounds rather than six shots?)
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 27/01/2021 at 9:03 AM.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    He was shot in the back as he attempted to enter the house with people inside. (One/some of those people had taken out an order of protection against him, but it's not clear if police at the scene knew that). I guess that stopping him from entering the house was the final line the police drew in just how far this could go without them firing.

    The state autopsy also said six shots/wounds, so it didn't contradict it either.

    Whether all the shots were necessary is something that will eventually come out in a report. There was 1 shot that was fired about 1 or 2 seconds after the first burst of shots. It's clear that Nnkencho had fallen to the ground/his knees at that point, as he went out of sight of the camera filming the incident. Whether he still represented an immediate threat that needed a further shot will be investigated I'm sure.

    Worth noting that when John Carthy was shot in 2000, he was first shot in the legs as he advanced towards Gardai, but it had little impact on him even a minute afterwards, and the ERU eventually had to shoot him in the torso.
    Last edited by osarusan; 27/01/2021 at 11:11 PM.

  9. #69
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    I think most people realise that the idea of shooting someone in the arm or leg to incapacitate them is pretty far from standard practice in such situations because, as you say, it won't always incapacitate, and the chance you might miss is much, much higher.

    Regards the final shot, it's a very valid question to ask. Again, it may point to inexperience with the use of firearms, and maybe some frayed nerves.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  10. #70
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    The final shot is a valid question alright, though I don't think the news that there was six shots instead of five (if indeed that is what the autopsy is saying) really changes anything in that regard.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...says-1.4482218

    George Nkencho, who was shot dead by gardaí in December, “needed help, not bullets”, his sister Gloria Nkencho has said, adding she believed class was a factor in his being shot dead rather than race.

    She insisted only a small minority of people were trying to create division on race grounds arising from her brother’s death.

    And she urged people not to be influenced by that “small percentage in society trying to turn this into a major race thing, and trying to cause a war” involving “black against white”.
    The family, and in particular the brother, said some pretty silly things in the aftermath. Good to see they are rowing back a bit, albeit I'm not convinced 'class' was much of a factor either.

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