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Thread: Shooting of George Nkencho

  1. #21
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.
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    In the last 22 years Gardai have shot and killed 6 people,5 were white and 1 was black.
    Anybody who has seen the video knows this is a non story.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.
    Anything with an Irish flag on twitter you can draw a line through.

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    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Some of the rumours going around about Nkencho debunked: https://www.thejournal.ie/george-nke...15584-Jan2021/
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    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    It's deeply depressing people feel the need to invent that kind of stuff, or that others will repeat it without an ounce of due diligence.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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  8. #26
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.
    Is the video real or not? If it's not, then fine - but the above isn't a point at all.

    But ignore it if you want. The point that Charlie raised is "I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday." So I'm trying to bring those voices in (and I think "black people", btw, is a huge group that can't really be clumped together as one, but that's another thread). Here's another one from RTÉ Radio earlier today - two local Nigerian pastors who knew George. Again, they ultimately have absolutely nothing to say to justify the reactions to this case, and they gloss over the issue of Nkencho assaulting a person and threatening others with a lethal weapon. They do at least make a brief call for calm protests - but no mention of what is being protested and why.

    So I agree with Charlie that these voices need to be heard, but the more they are being heard and the more they have nothing to say, the harder it is to shake the view that there is nothing of substance to their claims, and that there's simply a gang of people who are using this case to create trouble.

    On the FactCheck, it's certainly important that facts are confirmed (and on a similar note, the Gardaí have confirmed the knife was a kitchen knife, not a machete). And yes, it's frustrating how easy the internet makes fake news (let's be honest, we've all been taken in by something, albeit not necessarily of such importance)

    But again, that needs balance. Where's the fact check article on claims he was only carrying a butter knife (he wasn't), that he only went out the odd occasion to go down the shops (but he'd apparently just returned from the UK), that he was a peaceful person (but his family apparently had a restraining order against him), etc

    Any debate needs balance to get to the truth of the matter and its resolution.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 05/01/2021 at 8:40 PM.

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    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    orlaredchan clearly has an agenda, and the account's timeline is a cesspool. If you want something to be taken seriously, post something from a user who can be taken seriously.
    Are you saying that if the42 can't check everything that's online about Nkencho, they shouldn't publish anything?
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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Orlaredchan is indeed a cesspool of an account and not to be taken seriously when it comes to any claims or 'facts' they might assert.

    But all Stu has done is link to a video posted there. Either the video is genuine or it isn't.

    And Stu is making the point that the Journal fact-checked only those rumours which portrayed Nchenko in a worse light, not those which portrayed him in a better light.

    I'd disagree with Stu to some extent, as some of those rumours ('he was a peaceful guy') are things that can't exactly be 'fact-checked' or disproven in the way that specific claims like 'he had 32 convictions' can be disproven, but the point is still valid. The Examiner, for example, when highlighting that Nchenko was not armed with a machete, could also easily have included a sentence along the lines of 'which also disproves claims made by his brother that he was armed only with a butter knife.'

    It's fair to ask why the Journal felt the need to fact-check one but not the other when the fact they do have (it was a kitchen knife) disproves both claims.
    Last edited by osarusan; 07/01/2021 at 9:18 AM. Reason: Journal, not Examiner

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  13. #29
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    I'm not sure any reasonably minded person believes that Black people can't own land. I don't know what posting a video like that does to service the debate over this mans death tbh. A small section of society is up in arms of this man's death - far right nutjobs have responded in kind. The rest of us should leave them at it imo.

    I'd like to see a full investigation into the death of this man and I think the use of lethal force was excessive. There seems to be some small elements of racial profiling in police forces throughout Europe - as indicted by a recent ECR Statement https://rm.coe.int/statement-of-ecri...-an/16809eee6a so while I very much doubt its an issue in this particular case its hardly outlandish to suggest it.

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  15. #30
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    But all Stu has done is link to a video posted there. Either the video is genuine or it isn't.
    I should add that a video is at least a good bit harder to fake than a photo too. It's clear it's a group of black people talking about race issues in Ireland for example, and it's clear it's not high summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    I'd disagree with Stu to some extent, as some of those rumours ('he was a peaceful guy') are things that can't exactly be 'fact-checked' or disproven in the way that specific claims like 'he had 32 convictions' can be disproven, but the point is still valid.
    Actually, I'd agree with this. The examples weren't great alright, but you've taken the underlying point.

    Maybe a better example - not perfect, but better - would have have been people online pointing out the inherent racism of the Gardaí by contrasting a case where a white person got a €25 euro fine for swinging a carving knife at a guard while a black person gets shot, and other similar stories where the white person got off with a lighter sentence. (I can't find the links now; I'll try dig one or two up). What they didn't mention, of course, is the context of the knife swinging - was he ****ed drunk and ultimately harmless for example? That would obviously be a different case to an active lunge with apparent intent to cause harm, as appears to have been the case here.

    So there's misrepresentations on both sides, and it's not reasonable to just single out one side's.

    Meanwhile, the Indo today ran with the headline "George Nkencho family: ‘Gardaí opened fire even though they knew people were inside the house". What is the relevance of that in the context of Nkencho lunging at a guard with a kitchen knife? And why post a picture of the guy as a kid - are we to take from it that this is the kind of person who couldn't possibly have lunged at a garda with a knife/assaulted a shop assistant and sent him to hospital?

    I can understand the family being upset - even if the guy was a knacker, it still has to be traumatic watching family get killed like that. Probably some of the comments - the brother's threat to the guard for example - have to be taken in the context of an emotional time and aren't really meant.

    I agree with Charlie Darwin that we need to hear why the community (whatever community that is - the "black community" is way too broad a term) are angry - and yet I think it's very pertinent to highlight they've had plenty of chances to explain it or why they're protesting, and no-one has come close to doing so.

    And probably the biggest concern is the way it's been reported in the media to be honest. It's very imbalanced.

    The upshot I guess is that apart from the few loons who jumped on the bandwagon early, the political reaction in general seems to be to let it all quieten down and hope it gets forgotten about. That's probably the best for now - to come out and say "Shut the **** up would ye; where's the racism?" would be, while factually correct, a bit incendiary.

    But how to have it so that if something similar happens again in the future, people don't start shouting "RACIST" is a bigger question, and one that's not easy to solve.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 06/01/2021 at 7:50 PM.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I'm not sure any reasonably minded person believes that Black people can't own land. I don't know what posting a video like that does to service the debate over this mans death tbh.
    I actually answered this in the post in question...

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    No, I can't agree with that.

    This is a societal issue, and any discussion shouldn't cut out a (large) section of society, otherwise you have potential for a clear imbalance in the discussion. I am part of society, therefore is absolutely has something to do with me.
    I'll rephrase. It's a societal issue but it isn't your place to frame the terms of conversation. Your opinions on mass migration might be sincerely felt but they are, at best, a distraction from what needs to be discussed.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quite a detailed piece from the Examiner, which supports some earlier claims while disputing others.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/s....html?type=amp

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  20. #34
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Decent piece on Primetime on the story last night too. Point was made that recommendations for crisis intervention personnel - that is, people trained specifically to attempt to diffuse situations involving those with possible/suspected mental health issues non-violently - to respond to such events with ASU were made as far back as 2009, but never implemented. An investigation into this shooting might make that reality.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I'll rephrase. It's a societal issue but it isn't your place to frame the terms of conversation. Your opinions on mass migration might be sincerely felt but they are, at best, a distraction from what needs to be discussed.
    Fine, leave it out so.

    Your original comment was -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
    I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday.
    We've had plenty of discussion from black people* about the matter in the past week or so and none have even tried to justify the reaction - the protests, the racism, the suggestions of institutional racism, the bandwagoning from politicians.

    Like osarusan, I was happy to be cynical of the mental angle at the start. That's now coming to the fore lately. Is it correct? I don't know obviously; none of us really do. But if it's the case that the Gardaí shot dead someone who was genuinely having a "mental health crisis" (and I don't know what that phrase means), then surely any question of racism has to go out the window.

    The problem I have still is that there's a couple of holes too many in all this, particularly around the loving and caring brother/son who was the subject of a restraining order from the family home. Nkencho's friend's suggestion that he developed mental health issues because of all the racism and inequality he saw in Ireland - I don't buy that at all either, albeit that I could give the guy the benefit of the doubt if he was put on the spot by some reporter (and I've already raised my concerns over the media treatment of all this)

    One other thing I took from the Prime Time report was the sister saying that "George was carrying his protector", referring to the knife. That's a really worryingly blasé thing to call a kitchen knife...


    * - (although the more I think about it, the more that phrase is just meaninglessly vague)

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Quite a detailed piece from the Examiner, which supports some earlier claims while disputing others.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/s....html?type=amp
    That's a really excellent article actually; thanks for sharing it.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    We've had plenty of discussion from black people* about the matter in the past week or so and none have even tried to justify the reaction - the protests, the racism, the suggestions of institutional racism, the bandwagoning from politicians.
    Well the racism is your interpretation - I don't follow your logic on it at all. The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice and I think any material you've posted in here from black people says that outright.

    The suggestion he was having a mental health crisis has been there from the very start and I don't think it's been emphasised any more or any less since. And I don't really see why somebody having a manic episode means racism can't have been a factor either.

    The problem I have still is that there's a couple of holes too many in all this, particularly around the loving and caring brother/son who was the subject of a restraining order from the family home.
    Well you're factually incorrect there because there was no restraining order from the family home - he was living there. There was a protection order of some measure but if he was living at home it clearly wasn't a physical restraining order.

    Nkencho's friend's suggestion that he developed mental health issues because of all the racism and inequality he saw in Ireland - I don't buy that at all either, albeit that I could give the guy the benefit of the doubt if he was put on the spot by some reporter (and I've already raised my concerns over the media treatment of all this)
    I haven't specifically heard what his friend said but it's as much speculation on his part in that case as anybody else. What his sister has said clearly is that his mental health had deteriorated significantly in the past couple of years.

    I didn't hear what was said about a protector so I won't comment on it.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Well the racism is your interpretation - I don't follow your logic on it at all. The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice and I think any material you've posted in here from black people says that outright.
    People blockading a Spar and shouting "Die, you white *******s" or similar is absolutely, undeniably, very racist. The person in the video saying he can't go to the Gardaí about things because there's no-one there who looks like him is racist.

    The problem with "The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice" is that it doesn't say anything. What injustice? Is it because black people have to work ten times harder to get noticed at football? Is it because black people can't own land or have jobs or because some people in Ireland got reparations from the slave trade 150+ years ago? Is it because the Gardaí is an institutionally racist body? Because they're the black voices I've posted here, and none of it is backed up by, well, anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    The suggestion he was having a mental health crisis has been there from the very start and I don't think it's been emphasised any more or any less since. And I don't really see why somebody having a manic episode means racism can't have been a factor either.
    The mental health matter is clearly now at the front of things. And ok, things change as they get investigated and new facts come to light - but it's not true to say it's not being emphasised any more than before.

    And I don't know why you mention racism as a possible factor here. There is as yet nothing whatsoever to suggest the Gardaí were racially motivated, and I think it's unhelpful lobbing the suggestion in to be honest. Do you think sexism was a factor too? Nkencho was a male, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Well you're factually incorrect there because there was no restraining order from the family home - he was living there. There was a protection order of some measure but if he was living at home it clearly wasn't a physical restraining order.
    Sorry, he had a protection order, not a restraining order. To get a protection order, you need to go to Court, probably citing domestic abuse in this case as he's a family member. That's not something you do lightly. Also, he wasn't living in the house at the time -

    So that doesn't change the overall point I made - there's too many holes in all this at present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    What his sister has said clearly is that his mental health had deteriorated significantly in the past couple of years.
    That of itself doesn't necessarily mean anything. The family are also telling us he was a kind loving person, but that seems not to have been the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I didn't hear what was said about a protector so I won't comment on it.
    It's on the Prime Time piece on RTÉ, and I also quoted it. Go have a listen. Don't just block it out.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 09/01/2021 at 10:54 AM.

  25. #39
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    People blockading a Spar and shouting "Die, you white *******s" or similar is absolutely, undeniably, very racist. The person in the video saying he can't go to the Gardaí about things because there's no-one there who looks like him is racist.
    I haven't seen all of the videos online that the far right are promoting, but I do remember hearing someone shout something like that in one of the videos and it certainly doesn't appear to be a commonly-held view.

    It's interesting you bring up the video that you posted earlier because I went back to your post to look for it and it appears that account has now been purged from Twitter along with the other fascists. But from what I remember, somebody saying it's a problem that no police officers look like them is not racist.

    To be honest, I think part of your problem is you just think saying anything about people of another race is racist, and you seem to be very sensitive to black people saying things about white people.

    The problem with "The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice" is that it doesn't say anything. What injustice? Is it because black people have to work ten times harder to get noticed at football? Is it because black people can't own land or have jobs or because some people in Ireland got reparations from the slave trade 150+ years ago? Is it because the Gardaí is an institutionally racist body? Because they're the black voices I've posted here, and none of it is backed up by, well, anything.
    No, it quite clearly says something: that there is a perception of injustice and this is driving the reaction. You're fully entitled to believe there is no injustice. That doesn't make it irrelevant and it certainly doesn't mean it "doesn't say anything."

    You know full well nobody said black people can't own land, or else you just got extremely confused watching videos because nobody said it. And, to be honest, you've posted a couple of black voices but you've taken it upon yourself to subscribe individual importance to them. It's not about what a few people on Twitter say.

    The mental health matter is clearly now at the front of things. And ok, things change as they get investigated and new facts come to light - but it's not true to say it's not being emphasised any more than before.
    No, it was right there front and centre from the start. If you missed it, you missed it, but it was there and strongly emphasised.

    And I don't know why you mention racism as a possible factor here. There is as yet nothing whatsoever to suggest the Gardaí were racially motivated, and I think it's unhelpful lobbing the suggestion in to be honest. Do you think sexism was a factor too? Nkencho was a male, after all.
    You need to read your own posts. Go back, you said if it was a mental health crisis then any suggestion of racism had to go out the window.

    Sorry, he had a protection order, not a restraining order. To get a protection order, you need to go to Court, probably citing domestic abuse in this case as he's a family member. That's not something you do lightly. Also, he wasn't living in the house at the time -
    That was speculation and other media have since cleared up that he was living in the house.

    It's on the Prime Time piece on RTÉ, and I also quoted it. Go have a listen. Don't just block it out.
    I didn't block it out, I'm saying I won't comment on something I haven't heard.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I haven't seen all of the videos online that the far right are promoting, but I do remember hearing someone shout something like that in one of the videos and it certainly doesn't appear to be a commonly-held view.

    It's interesting you bring up the video that you posted earlier because I went back to your post to look for it and it appears that account has now been purged from Twitter along with the other fascists. But from what I remember, somebody saying it's a problem that no police officers look like them is not racist.
    "Far right are promoting", "other fascists" - I'm not sure why you're so keen to attack the poster and not the post. Either the video is legit (and it appears to be) or it's not. This has been covered before.

    I didn't say the comments like "Die you white *******s" was a commonly-held view. But it is a view that has been expressed. Saying there's no-one who looks like you to talk to is absolutely racist - you are judging someone on their race and deciding you can't talk to them. So there is racism here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    No, it quite clearly says something: that there is a perception of injustice and this is driving the reaction.
    But the point you keep missing is that a "perception" of injustice isn't worth anything if there's no evidence whatsoever for it. You suggested listening to what black people (with the caveat again that it's a misleading phrase) - and I am, and I'm hearing racism, I'm hearing very vague complaints of an unsubstantiated nature, I'm hearing no real reason for protests, no real reason why the reaction to this case is so different to the Mark Hennessy case. Maybe they're there for sure - but if they are, why is it so hard to articulate them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    You know full well nobody said black people can't own land, or else you just got extremely confused watching videos because nobody said it. And, to be honest, you've posted a couple of black voices but you've taken it upon yourself to subscribe individual importance to them. It's not about what a few people on Twitter say.
    No, it's in the video - black people won't have equality until they can hold land. Again, a minority view I'm sure, but it's another voice to add to the bundle when I go looking.

    I think you've completely misrepresented what I've tried to do by quoting black voices (objection to the phrase taken as read by now). I've taken a variety and considered what each has to say about the reason behind the protests and the reaction. Not one has any valid reason as far as I can see. Not one. I'm more than happy to hear other voices - the majority in fairness probably recognise this case for what it is - but in the absence of any voices corroborating your view that there is injustice there which is making them this angry, it's not a view that logically can be subscribed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    You need to read your own posts. Go back, you said if it was a mental health crisis then any suggestion of racism had to go out the window.
    Yes - so why are you still bringing racism into it? If Nkencho was shot because he had a "mental health crisis" - and again, I don't know what that term means - while brandishing a kitchen knife, then where's the racism?

    Do you think there was racism at play in the shooting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    That was speculation and other media have since cleared up that he was living in the house.
    What other media? Genuinely interested here. As it stands, your quote can't trump the Sunday Times report (which was one of the earliest reports to show some proper reporting, raising the protection order issue first, for example)

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