2022 FIFA World Cup

[pineapple stu]

The counter to your counter might be just that - - in Canada (not sure about Ireland) it cannot be said to be systemic - - there are protections, there are processes, there are fines and penalties for claims supression, there is healthy workplace injury compensation. The violations are the exception and usually based on indivdual employers vs. at the industry or broader levels. I think that is significantly different from Qatar where, from the interviews that are out there, the state and others are in complete denial that there are ANY deaths at work or ANY abuses of immigrant rights in general.

This is probably worth a split thread (in CA maybe?) while we watch another fun upset, but I do agree with that. Of course, you look at the Bulgarians being flown in during covid to pick strawberries (specialist labour my hole) and I don't think they count as direct employees so I'm not sure how much protection they have. I don't think they get minimum wage for example. I absolutely agree that what happens in Qatar is a step or four above here. But we're not blameless.

And of course there's never complaints when Qatar Airways sponsor things or when there's golf in Dubai (which has a similar mindset re migrant labour, as I think Simon Reeve has highlighted on one of his trips)

[tetsujin1979]

Hamann does not look healthy today

[Stuttgart88]

This is probably worth a split thread (in CA maybe?) while we watch another fun upset, but I do agree with that. Of course, you look at the Bulgarians being flown in during covid to pick strawberries (specialist labour my hole) and I don't think they count as direct employees so I'm not sure how much protection they have. I don't think they get minimum wage for example. I absolutely agree that what happens in Qatar is a step or four above here. But we're not blameless.

And of course there's never complaints when Qatar Airways sponsor things or when there's golf in Dubai (which has a similar mindset re migrant labour, as I think Simon Reeve has highlighted on one of his trips)

Let's say you're a newly qualified Irish nurse/doctor/teacher or whatever with no chance of getting a deposit for a flat in Dublin. You get offered a good job in Qatar, Dubai or Abu Dhabi. More money than you'd earn at home and tax free. Do you rule it out on moral grounds or think it's worth doing for a few years? (Ignoring that it might even be fun and there's a vibrant ex-pat community etc...)

[pineapple stu]

I'm not blaming the Bulgarians for taking the jobs though - I'm blaming big companies trying to save money by flying in cheap labour they can take advantage of more easily.

If we're going to try build a more sustainable society and reduce our carbon emissions in line with all known major warnings, then yes, I absolutely think that we should pay a little bit more for meat or fruit and create local careers rather than fly people half-way around the world to work and live in crap conditions to bump up the corporate bottom line.

[Stuttgart88]

If we're going to try build a more sustainable society and reduce our carbon emissions in line with all known major warnings, then yes, I absolutely think that we should pay a little bit more for meat or fruit and create local careers rather than fly people half-way around the world to work and live in crap conditions to bump up the corporate bottom line.

Isn't that kind of happening already? Not necessarily for ESG reasons but for very definite geo-political and domestic political reasons we're reducing our reliance on Chinese and 3rd World labour. In the developed world labour's share of profits has been shrinking for a generation and it's high time this was reversed. The current bout of global inflation is partially due to this reversal. Every generation or so the economic balance of power pendulum swings between labour and capital. Right now it's swinging back towards labour.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think so. Yeah, you hear a lot of talk about ESG looking into supply lines but seen very little real action. I was in at Dublin Zoo at the weekend for example and there was a biodiversity exhibit (Wild Lights) which constantly referenced shopping local and so on to reduce carbon - but everything in the shop was made in China. There was an article giving out about England's World Cup kit (and replicas) being made in Thailand by workers on $1/hour (but the kit is £115).

Plus many companies actively recruit in Eastern Europe or beyond because they want to drive down base wages (Musgraves recruiting in Poland/Croatia being a relatively recent example - they don't want to pay local wages because all they care about is the bottom line). Or office cleaners - again, all cheap import labour in the last 10 years or so.

And of course while we think we're being great and diverse and multi-cultural and inclusive, we don't consider the brain drain impact on those countries, hamstringing their economic development in the process.

There's a lot of hot air about stuff like that but very little action because if we're honest, we like cheap meat and strawberries and reduced cleaning budgets. And that's as far as we can see really.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I was saying it's less to do with ESG and more to do with reducing reliance on China etc. It's happening in certain goods. But across the board pay conditions have been under scrutiny more than in a long time.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, fair enough on ESG alright; I mis-read that bit. There's time for that to have impact yet, but it's a lot of greenwashing at present so far as I can see.

We're looking to reduce reliance on Russian gas and look how that's going - over to the Saudis and licking them up! Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I think we're addicted to cheap labour (and energy) and I would be surprised if that's going to change much in reality. But the flip side is I think it has to if we're at all serious about greater global equality, carbon reduction, sustainability, etc. (Which we're not - the West, for want of a better term, is serious about making money for itself and that's it)

I think we've gone off on quite a tangent though - as Spain are tearing Costa Rice apart; 4-0 after 55 minutes and the poor Costa Ricans have to face an enthusiastic Japan and a possibly desperate Germany still - but I think we're in rough agreement that if he who is without sin can cast the first stone, then we shouldn't be throwing it at Qatar, even if we are clearly better in some areas than them?

[seanfhear]

Some great points being mare re the Qatar situation ~ ~ Both Pro and Against ~ ~ Thanks Posters.

[joey B]

Gavi is ridiculous,18 years old….

[Bielsa´s irish]

Gavi scored a Roy Keane kind or goal

[NeverFeltBetter]

RTE sum up tiki-taka brilliantly by referring to Spain's manner of playing as "soul destroying movement" then moments later declare the fourth goal " a joy to watch".

[Jd2793]

cawley is a woeful pundit/co-comm. that game was a hard listen

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think he's fine myself, it's just his delivery isn't great. He doesn't really seem to have a feel for how to project himself properly and sounds nervous at times.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Canada are well up for this. Reminds me of the USA/Wales game in that we have a young team running rings around the older, but I'd say the more experienced side will settle into it eventually. Shame the penalty was saved, that would really have made it interesting.

[passinginterest]

Not sure how Canada weren’t given a second penalty on the VAR review. Pretty unlucky to be behind. The Canadian system strikes me as being what Stephen Kenny wanted his Ireland team to be. High tempo, high press and brave enough to really commit to it.

The couple of times Belgium did break the press they had Canada in trouble but they either fluffed it or the defence recovered well. Makes it all the more galling for Canada that the goal they conceded was a long straight punt down the middle.

[joey B]

Belgium distinctly unimpressive in this game,compared to the likes of Spain and France they’re miles off it….

[Stuttgart88]

Is it just me or are Belgium much worse since Anthony Barry joined the set up? ?

[osarusan]

I thought Canada were wonderful to watch, and not just in a plucky underdog way. Really well structured side, moved at pace, had more than one plan of attack...Herdman in for Ireland.

[SkStu]

Canada were BRILLIANT!! Lots to be hopeful for with what looks like a below par Croatia (complicates my home life ) and Morocco...