LOI In Europe 2021

[Dalymountrower]

[QUOTE=sbgawa;2085668]Every team is allowed a few bad games a season, i've said several times already Rovers didn't do themselves justice so i am not deflecting .
I am however enjoying throwing a few jabs at the feeder club supporters (Devoy on his way next reportedly) /QUOTE]
There isnt a year goes by but that Rovers have had a fetish like need to poach a Bohs player to satiate the more feral of their fans.I have no doubt that attempts have been and are being made to tap up Devoy ,Coot, Burt, even Georgie Kelly.Thats what your club does, and has been doing for decades.
Liam O 'Brien, Pat Byrne Terry Eviston, Dave Connell Jacko Mc Donagh, Gino, and in recent times Watts, Lopez, Mandriou.
We are used to it, it ****es us off, but what can you do .When victories do come in those circumstances they are all the sweeter.
When Bohs poached Tony Grant , there were death threats and pigs heads hurled on the pitch!
Thankfully your club doesn't have 3 million from winning the game last night to fund the annual hunt and drive up costs for any other club competing to sign players.

[Kiki Balboa]

We scored 50% from ten games against leagues ranked in the 50s (4 wins, 2 draws, 4 defeats) - is that "clearly positive"?

I really don't get your negetivity to Irish teams in Europe. This time last year you were trying to find negatives in Dundalk knocking out Sheriff. What would be considered a 'positive' year in Europe for you?

If this year was the average European year for LOI, it would be ranked 31st in Europe, and apart from Sheriffs brillant run affecting Moldovas ranking, the only other league to score higher than us this year is Poland in 28th, and beyond that is Isreal in 22nd. Not a bad record after four qualifying rounds.

Three teams went through at least one tie, two teams went through twice (both of whom are midtable and worse and might not be in Europe next year). Home wins against Slovan Bratislava and PAOK plus an away draw against a team that finished 4th in the 7th ranked league in Europe. Against those 3 teams, LOI teams scored 7 times. Only Rovers performance in the last round is really the only thing to be be pessimistic about.

To me, arguments like this is like the bitter old man at the end of the bar that only speaks in complaints.

[pineapple stu]

I really don't get your negetivity to Irish teams in Europe.

Well I've outlined why I don't agree with your "clearly positive" view. I'm not sure what's not to get, especially as you've not commented on anything in my post.

What would be considered a 'positive' year in Europe for you?

Fair question. You say that "If this year was the average European year for LOI, it would be ranked 31st in Europe" - but it wasn't an average year. It was a record year brought about by a very fortunate draw at key times, particularly for Bohs/Dundalk in the second round. The problem with comparing absolute coefficients (as I've said before on the thread) is that the win v Stjarnan was worth the same as the win v PAOK, so a fortunate draw can skew things.

But 31st is where we rank in terms of population (or I think we're 30th actually), so that really is where we should be targetting, especially as throughout Europe, western nations have an advantage over eastern ones of a similar population. I said earlier in thread that we should be looking to score 2.000 per year over a 5-year average, and that was poo-poohed as being unrealistic. That's two wins per team each year - surely that's not unrealistic though? And having seen how the new Conference League helps in terms of easier draws and extra chances for the champions, I think we should be targetting 2.500 on average.

For me, a key thing (mentioned by others in thread too) is consistency from year to year. There's no point getting carried away with a few wins when we lose to Lithuanian sides the next year (as too often happens - in fact, really only 2011/2016/2021 have been solid coefficient scores, which is very fortunate as the coefficients run on a 5-year cycle). The league needs more consistent results in Europe for me.

I don't agree Rovers v Flora was the only thing to be pessimistic about; Sligo v FH was bad too. Probably the best was Bohs v Dudelange. The games v PAOK and Vitesse - albeit again that three of them could easily have been 4/5-0 - were also positives. What would be good to see next season is (1) 2.500 again, (2) not losing to leagues ranked in the 50s, and (3) the start of a return to continual good results against leagues in the 30s, which is key but it's something we've really lost the knack of in the past decade or so.

[EatYerGreens]

That flora manager is good. He knows what he's. This passing for passing sake is a disease entering Irish football that's come through To the national team now. Causing problems and losing games. It's a very worrying trend.

What's wrong with passing ? It's about keeping possession and waiting patiently for an opening/opportunity. What's the alternative - long balls up the pitch and the lottery of who gets to them first ?

[wonder88]

The Flora manager is 2 years younger than S Bradley at Shamrock Rovers and seemed to have his team well organised last night. Are any LoI teams playing a 4-4-2 system these days, would it not be worth a try sometimes, especially at home in Europe.

[ontheotherhand]

I have been struggling to remember a worse League Champions performance in European competition over the last ten years than last nights debacle, Pats hammered 6-1 by Legia is up there , slightly better performance by Cork who were well beaten by a good Legia team in 2018.
Rovers (again) being beaten by another Baltic powerhouse, mighty Ekranas of Lithuania in 2013 stands out, although they did manage a plucky 0-0 draw at home.

(Cue Sbgawa and deflection squad referencing Bohs TNS/Icelandic part timers in the Europa League)

What's it called when someone preemptively calls out the obvious rebuttal to their argument hoping that it removes the obvious rebuttal from the arsenal of the people they are trying to argue with?

We'll see how Flora do in the groups before we can accurately place Rover's exit on the pile of ****e European results by Irish clubs DR. It's unfortunate they won't be playing Anderlecht or CSKA Sofia as that was who the computer supply shop from Wales went on to lose to by a combined scoreline of 11-3 after knocking Bohs out 4-1 in the very first round. If they do get hockeyed about as TNS did, I'll be sure to come back to you for some soy based humble pie.

[Philosophizer]

Are any LoI teams playing a 4-4-2 system these days, would it not be worth a try sometimes, especially at home in Europe.

It would be worth it if you had players who were suited to the system and had a bit of practice at it and were used to it.
It worked well for Flora for that reason, and mostly because they had Vassiljev who was just a higher standard than everyone else on the pitch.
I was actually thinking watching the rovers match that Gaffney and Greene might work well in a 442. Greene doess excellent work running into channels and linking with players. He might be more suited to playing beside a more traditional number 9 who stays in the box. Greene didn't seem to offer any goal threat as a lone striker at that level.

[ontheotherhand]

Greene was there to open things up for a better midfield last season. He isn't as effective this year because our midfield clearly isn't as strong.

4-4-2 might pop up by default for us for a few weeks now that we have Grace, Hoare, Kavanagh, Farrugia, Grace and Scales gone......And I still wouldn't be sure of the 4 who would play.

[Philosophizer]

That makes a lot of sense actually. I guess the idea was that Mondroiu and Towell would get a significant number of goals, especially Towell since his numbers were better than a striker in his Dundalk days.

[Dalymountrower]

What's it called when someone preemptively calls out the obvious rebuttal to their argument hoping that it removes the obvious rebuttal from the arsenal of the people they are trying to argue with?

We'll see how Flora do in the groups before we can accurately place Rover's exit on the pile of ****e European results by Irish clubs DR. It's unfortunate they won't be playing Anderlecht or CSKA Sofia as that was who the computer supply shop from Wales went on to lose to by a combined scoreline of 11-3 after knocking Bohs out 4-1 in the very first round. If they do get hockeyed about as TNS did, I'll be sure to come back to you for some soy based humble pie.

League Champions, ie league standard bearers is the criteria I used, but you tumbled into computer supply shops etc anyway.
So can you remember league champions putting in a more embarrassing performance in Europe since Erkanas?

[Nesta99]

I still think Rovers are favourites to win on the night if not to win the tie after the 1st leg. In a lot of ways there was self inflicted damage done rather than being outclassed by a much better side. Lessons will have been learned so I really do think this tie is still well in the mix, also I dont think Tallinn can raise their game any more whereas Rovers have a much better performance in them. The old clichés fit well, an early goal, make them nervous and not know whether to stick or play on the front foot, Rovers cant afford to play with any fear. Hedging bets here - patience could be needed, from the crowd too, not going quiet or getting on the backs of players if the early goal doesnt happen, if one goes in at any time there will be a barnstorming finish and some atmosphere! Tallinn score and ye cant see Rovers having the point men to put in 3. Penos are not unlikely. One of these opinions has to be a hit allowing for some revisionist hindsight tomorrow night

They played with no fear the last day. No fear of picking up a man or holding the middle! These lads pressed them high and obviously saw they were poor under pressure on defence. How much their manager got to see of them and how they played on their weakness was impressive. Joey O'Brien should be much more composed for example given where he has played but the lack of pace throughout the backline gave flora oceans of space to expose. Bradley saying we did it against slovan and we know what to do no you didn't slovan scored a goal and won the tie. This requires a massive effort and some actual organisation. These lads will score and it's highly unlikely rovers will score 4, pens doesn't really look likely either

Undoubtedly it was disappointing that Bradley didnt learn from the 1st leg v Slovan, he didnt react v Tallinn, he played 3 at the back without 1 having the pace required, the main issue was in midfield imo, O'Brien should have had the experience to show more composure and again ye have to question how or why the manager didnt instill the belief to go on the front foot. He does now have something to work with on that basis in how they responded 2nd leg v Slovan and look for more of that. Yes Rovers went out of the CL but in the end it was a close run thing and its a tad unfair not to factor that in to things or just dismiss the result of that leg. Im not arguing the case for Rovers potentially going through in a supporting manner, but in that I think they are capable of going through and it being, imo, due to inexperience or the over cautious nature of the tactics/manager in a 1st leg that give a lot of work to do. They can certainly level the tie, they will be better defensively as it would be too hard to be better than last week, the away goal rule change makes penos quite possible, Mannus doesnt make too many errors as he did so parrying the ball back in to the mix rather than push it wide - all the errors added up to the 1st leg loss and if cut out there is enough not to call it done and dusted. If Tallinn do go after finishing the tie it will suit Rovers based on who they struggled to break down the defensive Albanians. Be interesting to see how close the respective opinions will be - It be entertaining either way, if Rovers get hammered I will be fine to concede that calling favourites was misjudged.

Embaressing stuff from the league champions, Mannus is past it and gaff prone, Rovers were never favorites and madness to say they were, never learn from previous games, always were going to be tentative etc etc. Some retrospective rehashing....

Well Paul called it much better than I. My own comments are almost the hockers were put on Rovers performance. Controlled the game but lacked the ability or cutting edge to make a game of it in the end. The old LoI self destruct moment was there too. Id expected more from Rovers in intensity but it was very like playing the Albanians - plenty of possession, wayward balls in to the box, little of the driving in to the box that created before - a lot of playing it in front of a well set defense without looking to do something different that might have scattered them occasionally. Disappointing for Rovers fans at the opportunity lost, maybe Bradley will have learned something from thee games but he hasnt looked like he can think on his feet. Rovers piece to kick on domestically was Mannus but are still lacking that clinical hatstand for Europe. Midfield can improve to be more creative attacking wise - Finn who could be that centre player that can slip a ball through is wasted as a WB imo in Europe. League is pretty much done so can go again but a lot of work to be done and this year it may actually be the 'Worst standard league season'! Domestically Rovers just need to go through the motions which hasn't helped in Europe - If it was nip and tuck battling a decent Dundalk side, Rovers would have been less laboured in Europe!!!

Ifs and buts but seeing Vitesse beating Anderlecht does make you think what could have been. If DFC showed that sort of consistency of performance we'd be hauling in to europan slots while possibly looking at group stage football and the owners made a mess of it...

Anyways for now Im siding with the more cynical nature of Paul and Stu.....until next summer

[ontheotherhand]

League Champions, ie league standard bearers is the criteria I used, but you tumbled into computer supply shops etc anyway.
So can you remember league champions putting in a more embarrassing performance in Europe since Erkanas?

My memory is brutal. I had Bohs down as champions when they got humiliated by Total Network Solutions in the Champions League qualifier the year after they won the league. My apologies if they'd gotten into the CL by some other route.

The impact of that TNS tie was also far greater wasn't it? You basically had to win in order to keep your team together? Rovers will be back next season.

Fancy you for the cup though. Unfortunately.

[sullanefc]

I can't get my head around fans of other clubs calling Shamrocks result "embarrassing". Really? Even UCD fans, whose only prospect of getting in to Europe is by winning a fair play raffle. Sounds bitter to me.

Why do fans of other clubs care so much? To see an enhancement of the perception of the league? When Shamrock qualified for the EL group stages we thought the league had turned a corner. When Dundalk did it for the first time, we thought the same.

But let's face it, the league has peaks and troughs but by and large, it ain't getting better. It will always be sh1t. Why are we worried if it is ranked 20th or 50th really? To impress the doubters and the barstoolers? So the champions of our sh1t league lost to a team from another sh1t league. Who cares.

I'm followimg the league for 20+ years and have settled in a place where I don't really care about the perception of the league or if fellow league teams get embarrassed. All I want is what is best for my own team. In fact, I'm happy Shamrock lost and didn't get a €3m advantage over my team. Because at the end if the day, all I care about is my team getting promoted and winning trophies.

If I was a Shamrock fan, all I would care about now is winning the league title. Disappointed not to make more money, but winning trophies must be the priority. And I would be ignoring the bitter sh1ts of other clubs calling a European result "embarrassing".

[ontheotherhand]

They aren't embarrassed. They are absolutely delighted, just as they should be. The faux embarrassment would actually be a small silver lining if it was genuine but the reality is it's just a stick to come waving on a message board. If they were in contention in the league they would probably wave it less but it's all they have at the moment. I was absolutely over the moon when Bohs, Sligo and Dundalk crashed out but I didn't bother coming on here to post about it.

That said I think there's a few on here who are more "league followers" than "club supporters" and then there's a few who just come in to take a pop around the European games because any bad result justifies their opinion that it's ****e even if they don't actually watch it.

[Dalymountrower]

My memory is brutal. I had Bohs down as champions when they got humiliated by Total Network Solutions in the Champions League qualifier the year after they won the league. My apologies if they'd gotten into the CL by some other route.

The impact of that TNS tie was also far greater wasn't it? You basically had to win in order to keep your team together? Rovers will be back next season.

Fancy you for the cup though. Unfortunately.

Over 10 years ago , so not the question I originally put(conveniently!)
Yep that TNS result is the all time worst CL result.
Re FAI cup, winner on Sunday have to be favourites.

[ontheotherhand]

Over 10 years ago , so not the question I originally put(conveniently!)
Yep that TNS result is the all time worst CL result.
Re FAI cup, winner on Sunday have to be favourites.

Fair play. I missed the ten year qualifier. Well played.

[sullanefc]

The faux embarrassment would actually be a small silver lining if it was genuine but the reality is it's just a stick to come waving on a message board.

True.

That said I think there's a few on here who are more "league followers" than "club supporters" and then there's a few who just come in to take a pop around the European games because any bad result justifies their opinion that it's ****e even if they don't actually watch it.

This is true and it's weird behaviour IMO.

[pineapple stu]

I can't get my head around fans of other clubs calling Shamrocks result "embarrassing". Really? Even UCD fans, whose only prospect of getting in to Europe is by winning a fair play raffle. Sounds bitter to me.

Ah, sullane is back with a follow-up to his memorable logical tour-de-force post "I don't agree" - this time, "Bitter sh!ts" "Sound bitter to me", because of the club I support. Bravo!

It is an embarrassing defeat. Rovers were quite literally falling over themselves to gift goals to the champions of the 53rd-ranked league, who had never in 30 European ties before this season won two legs of the same tie. (Levadia Tallinn, the other main Estonian side, have achieved the feat once in 35 European ties, against Sammarinese opposition. Nomme Kalju did it once in 19 ties, against Faroese opposition, and so on)

It's also quite funny, and I'm quite happy to have a laugh at Rovers too (though sparing a thought for Scales, O'Neill, Finn and Watts of course)

Does it matter though? It does. You can look at trickle-down fees like transfer fees (transfer fee income in the LoI has gone through the floor in the past decade, which is a bad thing) or solidarity funding, but the main area is that a domestic league is supposed to provide players for the national team, and a bad league (like ours) translates to a bad national team (like ours). That impacts on my enjoyment as an Ireland fan, and also leads to less income for the FAI to put back into the game.

I know when your focus is on how to get out of the bottom half of the First Division or how to finally beat Cabinteely, this sort of joined-up thinking is bit advanced. But they're real factors nonetheless.

[CorribsideSteve]

Ah, sullane is back with a follow-up to his memorable logical tour-de-force post "I don't agree" - this time, "Bitter sh!ts" "Sound bitter to me", because of the club I support. Bravo!

It is an embarrassing defeat. Rovers were quite literally falling over themselves to gift goals to the champions of the 53rd-ranked league, who had never in 30 European ties before this season won two legs of the same tie. (Levadia Tallinn, the other main Estonian side, have achieved the feat once in 35 European ties, against Sammarinese opposition. Nomme Kalju did it once in 19 ties, against Faroese opposition, and so on)

It's also quite funny, and I'm quite happy to have a laugh at Rovers too (though sparing a thought for Scales, O'Neill, Finn and Watts of course)

Does it matter though? It does. You can look at trickle-down fees like transfer fees (transfer fee income in the LoI has gone through the floor in the past decade, which is a bad thing) or solidarity funding, but the main area is that a domestic league is supposed to provide players for the national team, and a bad league (like ours) translates to a bad national team (like ours). That impacts on my enjoyment as an Ireland fan, and also leads to less income for the FAI to put back into the game.

I know when your focus is on how to get out of the bottom half of the First Division or how to finally beat Cabinteely, this sort of joined-up thinking is bit advanced. But they're real factors nonetheless.

Exactly this.

[sullanefc]

Does it matter though? It does. You can look at trickle-down fees like transfer fees (transfer fee income in the LoI has gone through the floor in the past decade, which is a bad thing) or solidarity funding, but the main area is that a domestic league is supposed to provide players for the national team, and a bad league (like ours) translates to a bad national team (like ours). That impacts on my enjoyment as an Ireland fan, and also leads to less income for the FAI to put back into the game.

How long are you following the league? How long are you waiting/will you be waiting for the league to go from "bad league" to a "good league"?

I've bad news for ya stu. It ain't happening anytime soon. I'd be shocked if it happened in our lifetime. You should just enjoy the league for what it is. Bear the losses of your team and enjoy the wins.

I know when your focus is on how to get out of the bottom half of the First Division or how to finally beat Cabinteely, this sort of joined-up thinking is bit advanced. But they're real factors nonetheless.

A fan of one sh1t team in the 1st division slagging a slightly more sh1t team in the 1st division. Lol. Whatever makes you happy stu.

I'll console myself in the knowledge that at some point in the near future, City will be back challenging for trophies in the Premier division whereas UCD will always be sh1t.

I'll let the fans of the small clubs worry about the overall standing of the league/transfer fees/the national team and the big clubs can focus on winning trophies.