its your truthOriginally Posted by livehead1
How silly - only looked at Scottish internationals! doh...
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
its your truth
evidently its the truth of any decent footballer or coach as well....how many good imports has the league had...e.g. a player who has played at the top level in a decent league or manager to have managed at the top level in a decent league....none and thats why its not good
define a "decent" league then?
Inter WENT OUT of the champions league, despite Robbie Keanes best efforts where he won a to-be-missed penalty iirc, Shels WENT THROUGH against KR. It's completley different. Again, Milan scraped through on away goals the year they won the bloody thing against a team who a year later were playing Shamrock Rovers in the inter toto cup.
Right, Wolves 1-0 Manchester United, Manchester United 0-0 Exeter, get Keane out of the international side?I'm not - I am merely picking the numerous occasions when Shels showed they weren't up to it. Shels have had some good results obviously, but there are too many poor ones, which is my point. If you want to discount this game, fine, but then Heary's performances against a pre-season Depor also can't be considered for the exact reason.
You're again ignoreing the fact that whatever about Shels in those games, Heary proved himself in every single one. He can't single handedly win games, he's a right back for christ sake.
So you lose in a final you have to be chokers and aren't upto it at international level? AC Milan, again, must be crap then due to throwing away a 3 goal lead to a side who finished below Everton. UPSETS HAPPEN IN FINALS. That's the bloody nature of cup finals, that's the whole point. Linfield knocked Glentoran out of the setanta cup yet finished below them in the league, who's better? You'd have to go with Glentoran.So you're better than them, but any results which show otherwise are to be discounted? Was it the pressure got to your team? Doesn't say much for their ability to play international football. Did they choke on the big occasion? Ditto. Big international matches are one-off too.
No what's quite simple really is you've dodged the question. Knock out ties do not = league matches, that's quite simple really. Say we finish second and somehow draw the Faroes in a play off. You're offered a 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no? Incidentally if draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football half our side have proven themselves time and time again to not be upto it, lets not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.
Let's put it this way - if we'd drawn 2-2 against the Faroes (or Cyprus) away and 0-0 at home, would we be in a position to qualify now? Draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football. Quite simple really.
1) There have been plenty in Hearys career. This is an argument about weather Heary is good enough or not, he has excelled himself in every single one. If we plays well and we lose it's hardly his fault is it? Heary btw did not play v Linfield.1) There haven't been many games where Shels have tested themselves against decent teams, so I can only pick a few results. Those few results are a notable percentage of the games available to me.
2) I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying I think it is the case though. Big difference. I'm calling for a bit of realism.
2) I disagree, if we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo and who has proven himself to be a quality player against Lille, Depor, Split, Ljubljana, Brøndby IF and Rosenborg then we're in a far FAR healthier position than I thought.
So managers always get it right? You couldn't argue when McCarthy was in charge that Duff up front was a load of nonsense because sure he's a manager so he knows more than you or I?I see. So irrespective of what the manager who signed them thinks - who, let's face it, is more knowledgeable than you or I - or what the manager who picks the players for the international team - who, let's face it, is also more knowledgeable than you or I - you are just going to persevere in your own view that Heary is better than Maybury. Fair enough so.
He was sacked after the first leg, I think. Negates your point.
I promised myself I wouldn't come back here, but have to negate some of your stupider points...
Keane didn't play v. Exeter! Wolves are very good team. Though I'm sure Shels would take them...
Are you trying to compare Sloga Jugomagnat and the Macedonian international team? You might as well equate beating Shels and beating Ireland.
Well, let's only get eL players in for play-off games then!
League-format games make up 90% of cometitive international ties. Drawing them is no good to us.
By your own argument, the game against Depor counts for little as Depor were in pre-season and weren't fully fit.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 17/06/2005 at 1:24 PM.
That's completley idiotic then, and it cost them.
Point is they finished last, it didn't mean Man U were on their level. I suppose Man U are chokers or whatever crap you were saying about Hearyless Shels loseing to Linfield?Keane didn't play v. Exeter! Wolves are very good team. Though I'm sure Shels would take them...
You've, once more, ignored the question.Well, let's only get eL players in for play-off games then!
League-format games make up 90% of cometitive international ties. Drawing them is no good to us.
You can't compare league format with knock out ties. Different ball game. That's idiotic. Knock out ties are about progressing no matter how.
Points you seem to have completley ignored there...
-Milan scraped through on away goals the year they won the bloody thing against a team who a year later were playing Shamrock Rovers in the inter toto cup.
-whatever about Shels in those games, Heary proved himself in every single one. He can't single handedly win games, he's a right back for christ sake.
-if draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football half our side have proven themselves time and time again to not be upto it, lets not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.
-If we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo and who has proven himself to be a quality player against Lille, Depor, Split, Ljubljana, Brøndby IF and Rosenborg then we're in a far FAR healthier position than I thought.
So are you saying that if Shels had been playing KR in a league game, they would have beaten them? Are you saying that Shels played for a 0-0 at home because they knew it would be enough? If so - given what had happened against Hibernians - they were idiots. I'm saying that they drew 2-2 and 0-0 because that's as good as they were. League game or knock-out tie, they went out to get the best possible result, and 2-2 and 0-0 was all they could manage. And in that case, they're not good enough to play international football.
What's the relevance of "playing" Rovers? I'd highlight the fact that they "destroyed" Rovers. It again doesn't matter because (a) Liberec are a good side and (b) I've repeatedly pointed out that your point about drawing twice with KR - which led to this particular diversion - is silly.
You're not actually after repeating that stupid point after I've just pointed out how silly it is, are you?!
As I said - using your own argument about out of season - the Depor game doesn't count for much as they were in pre-season.
So we weren't good enough to beat KR but were to beat Split? Yes we played for a draw and I agree, it was stupid, but Fenlon is a negative manager.
If they're not good enough to play international footbnall because they progressed past KR than I'll mention Macedonia for the 5th time, AC Milan for the 5th time and many others in the past.
what you're spectacularly failing to see is that Milan on on a different planet to Liberec, who were only in the inter toto the year after, playing Rovers has no relevence, the inter toto does. Yet, Milan couldn't 'beat' them in your farcial view of knock out football, they only got through on away goals. That proves they're only on Liberecs level does it? Yeah, sure it does.What's the relevance of "playing" Rovers? I'd highlight the fact that they "destroyed" Rovers. It again doesn't matter because (a) Liberec are a good side and (b) I've repeatedly pointed out that your point about drawing twice with KR - which led to this particular diversion - is silly.
You said "Are you trying to compare Sloga Jugomagnat and the Macedonian international team? You might as well equate beating Shels and beating Ireland." Which I missed, did you edit that in later?You're not actually after repeating that stupid point after I've just pointed out how silly it is, are you?!
Again, spectacularly failing to see the point being made here. Are Macedonia a good measuring stick for international class footballers? No. Ireland have lost and drawn away to them. Ergo, by retarded logic 101, none of the players, not one of them, who played in either game can be considered international class. Not that the team Shels played are the same as the Macedonian team, but that Macedonia are rubbish, and we lost and drew with them.
So you're saying Maybury could keep Luque in his pocket two games in a row if he played him a week before his season started? Yeah, sure he could.As I said - using your own argument about out of season - the Depor game doesn't count for much as they were in pre-season.
Even if you discount the Deportivo game, which is stupid, you can't discount the rest.
Heary has proven himself time and time again.
So you're happy to play down the Portadown game, yet want to count the Depor and Hajduk games? Contradiction, no?
Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them (I don't for a second believe that the team said "Hey, 0-0's good enough, so let's try for that"). But hey, good enough for the Irish international squad!
I think you need to take off your Cork-tinted glasses here. Heary's a good player. Most of the Shels players are good players. But the fact is that they aren't good enough to be in the international squad. Even those who are former internationals (like Ndo and Moore) were a long way removed from international football when they came to Shels. That's how far removed the eL is from international football, unfortunately.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 17/06/2005 at 1:54 PM.
i was of the opinion this was a bit of a wind up.
seriously do you really think that heary is anyway near good enough for a call up?????
So was I. Unfortunately, my biggest weakness is ignoring idiots and wind-ups. I have to ensure people aren't taken in by their nonsense. You'd hate to see me talking to George Bush!
Hajduk Split were already well into their season when they played us. Deportivo weren't at their best when they played us but they're still a good team.
You're spectacularly wrong. Lille, Split and KR had all started their season by the time we played them. Summer soccer isn't a cheat, it's an equaliser.Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them (I don't for a second believe that the team said "Hey, 0-0's good enough, so let's try for that"). But hey, good enough for the Irish international squad!
Ndos last cap was a year before joing Shels. Moore is not international class.I think you need to take off your Cork-tinted glasses here. Heary's a good player. Most of the Shels players are good players. But the fact is that they aren't good enough to be in the international squad. Even those who are former internationals (like Ndo and Moore) were a long way removed from international football when they came to Shels. That's how far removed the eL is from international football, unfortunately.
Fact is, Heary has proved himself against better teams than Maybury has played and embarassed himself against. You can discount that if you want, it's the Irish teams loss when that clown goes out and embarasses himself like he has done on a few occasions playing for Ireland while Heary, who has played and excelled against a better standard of opposition than Ireland play against more often than not, sits at home.
I'm not saying he's world class, but he's better cover than the crap we've capped. If we had a squad of premiership class players to pick from it wouldn't be a debate, but we don't.
One game, in fact, according to rsssf.com.
And I've allowed for that - Lille destroyed you, Hajduk were only just into their season - I'm slightly out there, but they still weren't fully match fit - and KR held you, indicating your quality.
Ah come on now. How is it an equaliser? It equalises us against the bigger and better teams? That's a cheat. It's a cheat I'm happy to take, but the fact is that it means we've a better chance of getting better results. The better results are because of the time we're playing, not necessarily because the players are much better than previous seasons.
Was quite enjoying that................
How about this for a little tester.
We get 5 International Managers (perhaps one from each continent) preferably managers with lower level of knowledge of the domestic game in UK & Ireland (being where our players are based).
Someone neutral assembles the top 30 irish players in the UK + top 10 irish players in the EL.
Two weeks of trials, then the 5 managers above have to assemble their best 16 man squad for competing in a WCQ.
Would there be any EL players selected in the 16? How many of our current players are picked because of the high profile of the league they play in or is it totally on ability factor.
what do you reckon?
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
LOI is an absolute joke, it's full of plumbers and janitors. The Premiership is arguably the best (certainly top three) league in the world. No comparison. The fourth place striker on the worst team in the Premiership is miles ahead of the best player in the LOI.
Ignoreing the original debate and moving on from the EL entirely, as it the thread was closed so that's the end of it, there's just NO WAY the premiership is even argubley the best league in the world imo
So how do you explain CSKA Moscow qualifying for the CL last season? Did Rangers blame their defeat on the fact that Moscow play in the Summer? How do you explain how they later went on to win the UEFA Cup, having overcome the disadvatage that all teams who play Summer football face, -playing and beating teams in February, and March when they hadn't played for several months, against teams in mid-season?Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them
You're focussing too much on specific results. You have to look at the overall situation. Yes, summer football evens out any disadvatages that Irish teams face in the early rounds in Europe. By taking advantage of it, our clubs play better teams from other countries more often, the clubs' players benefit individually while gaining more exposure at the same time, and the league's co-efficient rises. They only won once in Europe last season, but Shels ultimately progressed to the 3rd qualifying round of last year's CL. As a result, Shels are seeded for the 1st round CL qualifiers this year. If they do as well as they did last year, or qualify for the group stages, (possible if they get a decent draw, and hit form) then perhaps our CL participants next year, will go straight to the 2nd qualifying round. Improving European results is, to a certain extent, what summer football is designed to do. If that happens consistently, Summer football will have worked.
With respect, you would expect Crewe and Coventry to blow away a bunch of students at any given time. UCD are one of the poorest sides in the NL Premier Division, who are regularly relegated from the top flight. If said sides played better teams like Derry, Cork, Longford, Shels, Bohs, or Pats, at this time of the year particularly, they would lose more than they would win. Recently, Spurs played Bohs when Bohs were in pre-season and couldn't beat them, so what hope for Coventry and Crewe? For every Derby, and West Ham in the Championship, there's a Crewe, a Gillingham, a Plymouth, and a Burnley. It's full of joke teams, crap players, and poor football. How playing in that league against such poor opposition, entitles someone to play for Ireland against a side like France or Italy, baffles me.
Every striker goes through a bad patch. Some more than others, one example being D. Connolly, - it happens when he plays for Ireland. Yet Kerr picks him when we're stuck for strikers, because of the "nobody else" whinge. The truth is that we have alternative strikers available for selection, all he has to do is go and look for them. Something he simply refuses to do.(re: J. Byrne)I'm not basing my impression on the Poland game. I'm basing my impression on eight opportunities against European opposition in which he didn't score, missed a number of sitters and was generally - not just by me - thought to have been poor.
Last edited by mypost; 18/06/2005 at 4:33 AM.
how long is it since you've seen them play ?,
they have improved a lot and are a thorn in everybodys side and on the day can beat any of the teams in the e/l prem . i presume "a bunch of students is
promote your own teams
Last edited by the 12 th man; 18/06/2005 at 6:10 AM.
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