Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we wonOriginally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm not - I've shown several performances which show (most at least) of the players quite clearly aren't up to international standard.
Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we won
Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we won
I'm going to spell this out quite simply - you progressed past KR. You did not beat them in either game. If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. Yet you treat it as a success. That's why most of the eL players simply aren't good enough to play internationally yet. That's why the likes of gypsydownunder and ColinR - much as we don't like it - are exactly correct.
I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.
No there would not. Who cares if we won one of the one off games or not? It is NOT an issue in European football, you get through. Getting through = success. If AC Milan were playing them and they were offered an away goals win they'd take it, a win is a win, who cares what the end score is? How in the hell is progressing failure? It wasn't pretty, but I suppose Duff and Keane aren't international class after Ireland played so poorly against the Faroe Islands? And AC Milan aren't a good team after only getting into the champions league on away goals the year they won it?
I'm going to spell this out quite simply - you progressed past KR. You did not beat them in either game. If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. Yet you treat it as a success. That's why most of the eL players simply aren't good enough to play internationally yet. That's why the likes of gypsydownunder and ColinR - much as we don't like it - are exactly correct.
And the first division side didn't set Europe alight last year, facing a weaker team than Shels in the first round of the UEFA cup.
V Lille we were outclassed. Now, if you could measure the Irish international teams playes all on the standard of Lille, we'd be a f*cking amazing team. Do you think a team consisting of the likes of Maybury, Barrett, Lee, Doherty, Quinn and co would have stood even the remotest chance against a team who finished second in France? Don't make me bleedin' laugh.I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.
The KR match we won, end of story, I really am not interested in how it happened. We won, we went through, they did not, the end. You've nicely ommited Hadjuk Split at home, Hajduk Split away, Deportivo at home and Deportivo away from your little test.
The portadown match was at the start of the season and they had the fitness advantage, we outplayed them on their own patch later. Linfield was a one off, Linfield finished behind Glentoran yet beat them in the Setanta cup, I suppose they're better now? You're useing one off results to prove a point and it is one of the most inept arguments in football, you can't do it. You think we're a worse side than Linfield because of the Setanta Cup final? Okay, so two years ago we were a worse team than Sligo? The european champions are worse than Burley? Yeah, fair enough
I very much doubt it and why did you even mention a division one team?
If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. .
Ah come on! If AC drew twice against KR, the manager would be sacked. In fact, he'd be sacked before the second leg. If these players can't beat Icelandic part-timers - twice - how can we justify a call-up to an international squad to play France?
My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?
Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.
The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.
No, he wouldn't. People would be unimpressed with the performance, but they would be happy with progression. Are you saying if you offered a team progression to the next round they wouldn't take it? Come off it.
I'm not saying fitness excuses our performance against Portadown but it was a factor as proved by the away game. You're selecting the home game as some kind of sign yet ignoreing the away game when we outclassed them, that is absolutley stupid.My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?
The Linfield game was a one off because it was a one off game, it was a final, you can't possibley judge a teams standard in a final. That's completley and totally retarded. How many upsets have there been in finals? Bloody millions, it doesn't mean the teams who won were better or the teams who lost were poor. Are Milan to be disregarded as a world class team for failing to beat the 5th place team in England, who finished below bloody everton?
Our previous teams were not as good as the team last year ot this year. In fact your whole theory that you can judge a player by his team is also completley retarded. Lets look at it like this, Lille H, Lille A, Deportivo H, Deportivo A, Hajduk Split H, Hajduk Split A, KR H, KR A, Ljubljana H, Ljubljana A, Brondby H, Brondby A - In not one of those games did Heary play poorly or show he wans't internetional class. Not one. Add Rosenborg and the rest onto that list. In fact in most he was absolutley exceptional.Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.
Drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football? Alright here, and answer this please, if I offered you right now that Ireland will finish second in their group, somehow draw a part time team in the play offs to qualify, draw 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no, call for Kerrs head and demand more? Are you f*ck.The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.
Right so, if the European champions can't beat Burley they're sh*t too? Open your eyes, results like those happen all over football. I'm sure the champions of England have lost to woefully inferior teams many, many times. I'm not arsed looking it up, you and I both know it's true. ffs Man U struggled to beat Exeter this season, only after a replay and a very even game did they. Keanes not international class now?
You're whole argument is flawed for two completley stupid reasons. 1) You're arguing that a few results can prove the entire standard of a team/league, that is not true. 2) You're saying that because a league/team has alot of substandard players that there can't possibley ever be international class players in it. Wrong. Heary has proved himself at the highest level, a higher level than Ireland will play bar a few games a year. Maybury has proved himself to not be up to it against inferior teams. I couldn't give a toss if Maybury plays for the 1970s Dutch team and Heary plays for Doncaster, on a player by player comparison, looking at both of their performances against top level opposition, Heary is better.
Last edited by Slash/ED; 16/06/2005 at 9:52 PM.
The year A.C.Milan won the CL they had to qualify(3rd round)they ended up playing Slovan Liberec(intertoto 2004).A.C got through on the away goals rule,Anccelotti was not sacked so as Slash said it come off it.
Last edited by jorge; 16/06/2005 at 10:57 PM.
Surely, in a 2 match tie, winning on Goal Difference means you had more goals!?
God
mi mistake i meant away goals difference
at the end of d day, the EL is a Cr*p league full of cr*p players who would have given their right foot to play in england, the vast majority of the stand out players are failures in england, crowe being a prime example. lets just see how well murphy and doyle do next season. i bet neither of them do sweet FA. none of the players in that league deserve a call up to their national side as they simply aint good enough and even if they were good enough no1 has even thought to take into acount if they would be able to handle the pressure of playing at the showgrounds one week and Parc De France the next.....
How many EL games do you get to see in England, livehead1?
spending months at a time in ireland....galway/sligo area i get to see quite a few thanks
Sligo and Galway, so all you've seen is first divison over the past few years then?
Is Steven Elliot International class based on the fact that he did well against the Faroe Islands, seriously? Connolly will be selected by BK when we face a striker crisis, you can be sure about that. You're being ultra-harsh on Byrne. He got a runout for about 2 minutes in a friendly for Ireland. If he was on for longer, he could have made a greater impression.
Disagree. Is playing against the likes of Gillingham, Cardiff, or Plymouth every week, a better test than facing the best this league has to offer, i.e. Shels, Bohs, or Cork regularly? I don't think so.Playing against the likes of Finn Harps and Shamrock Rovers also isn't the best way to prepare for an international match, while at least playing against Division One clubs is a much better test on a regular basis.
On a separate issue, I have to agree with Slash/ed with the results arguement. If AC Milan got an away draw in a European tie during their pre-season away to an Icelandic side in mid-season, I don't think they'd be too upset. Shels may not have won against KR last year, but they qualified for the next round. You can't say the same for a side who apparantly play in a better league, Dunfermline, who went out of Europe to another Icelandic side last season, Hafnarfjordur. So if you want to compare results, that must mean that Shels are a better side than Dunfermline, but they are anyway.
Last edited by mypost; 17/06/2005 at 4:38 AM.
Was that post sent in 1985, or 2005??
Judging the standard of the NL by watching games in the lower division is not an accurate assessment of the standard of the league. There are mouth-watering games on most weeks in the top flight, the standard of football is better than before, the European results have improved, and the players are full-time at most of the top flight clubs. Yes, some players want to play in England, but so do players in many countries.
Hmmmm. As mentioned earlier the last Home based player to play in a COMPETITIVE game was in..... 1985.
So maybe the standard was better then?
My better sense is telling me to write you off as a complete wind-up merchant, so this will be my last contribution...
Right so. You believe that. The reality can be seen by the example of Inter losing their first-leg game in Helsingborgs in the Champions' League in 2000 - the manager didn't last very long after that. And before you start up again, it's a one-off by necessity - results of that magnitude don't come along too often.
I'm not - I am merely picking the numerous occasions when Shels showed they weren't up to it. Shels have had some good results obviously, but there are too many poor ones, which is my point. If you want to discount this game, fine, but then Heary's performances against a pre-season Depor also can't be considered for the exact reason.
So you're better than them, but any results which show otherwise are to be discounted? Was it the pressure got to your team? Doesn't say much for their ability to play international football. Did they choke on the big occasion? Ditto. Big international matches are one-off too.
Let's put it this way - if we'd drawn 2-2 against the Faroes (or Cyprus) away and 0-0 at home, would we be in a position to qualify now? Draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football. Quite simple really.
1) There haven't been many games where Shels have tested themselves against decent teams, so I can only pick a few results. Those few results are a notable percentage of the games available to me.
2) I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying I think it is the case though. Big difference. I'm calling for a bit of realism.
I see. So irrespective of what the manager who signed them thinks - who, let's face it, is more knowledgeable than you or I - or what the manager who picks the players for the international team - who, let's face it, is also more knowledgeable than you or I - you are just going to persevere in your own view that Heary is better than Maybury. Fair enough so.
That's an invalid comparison. You can't compare the bottom teams in Division One with the top teams in the eL Premier. You have to compare like with like - is playing West Ham, Sunderland, Derby, etc. more of a test than playing Shels, Cork, Bohs, etc.? Yes, I think it is. Is playing Notts Forest, Crewe, Coventry more of a test than playing UCD, Harps or Rovers? We've played Crewe and Coventry and been blown away by them, so it most certainly is.
I'm not basing my impresison on the Poland game. I'm basing my impression on eight opportunities against European opposition in which he didn't score, missed a number of sitters and was generally - not just by me - thought to have been poor.
Are you seriously comparing a Czech team to an Icelandic one?! The twelfth best league in Europe versus the 36th best? The 72nd best team in Europe in the last five years according to the UEFA rankings versus a team who don't even appear on a list of 237 teams?
Great debate lads, afraid I can't add too much to it due to my lack of knowledge of the EL, (though this is getting better).
Slash/Ed, whilst you may be right in saying that you can't judge an individuals ability on his teams/domestic leagues progression. I would say it is more than likely a fairly accurate method of benchmarking his skills and ability to play at the very highest level?
Ireland are looking to qualify for the World Cup and should we get there we would be looking to at least reach the knock out stages.
I know nothing of Heany but the likelihood of a player who can form part of the team above, playing for a team with mediocre european results (although improving all the time) and playing in a league which is acknowledged as below par are remote.
A US Cup type scenario of friendlies may help to try a few players that fall in to this bracket.
That may or may not be the case. But how many internationals do Dunfermline have in their first team? Zero.
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
Not quite true - Andrius Skerla is a Lithuanian international. Think that backs up your point though.
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