QuoteFrom the man who literally just two posts earlier on a different topic wrote :Originally Posted by EalingGreen
#SquabblingNordies
Still a bit of an overreaction by them Derry wans, I'd say:
https://www.donegalsporthub.com/17245-2/
From the man who literally just two posts earlier on a different topic wrote :
#SquabblingNordies
Nor was I seeking to score points.From the man who literally just two posts earlier on a different topic wrote :
[Originally Posted by EalingGreen]
….nor am I seeking to score points etc.
#SquabblingNordies
Then.
#PickYerTargets
Some in Derry can't take a bit of banter it seems, and Derry fans are in no place to be chatting about controversial banners being hung in their home grounds
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But your point is that there should be a pyramid and it'll work itself our through Darwinism. And your only evidence for this is that it works in other leagues. Yet the ridiculously high turnover of clubs in the LOI over the last century (show me another league which has faced such high instability/turnover?), combined with the presence of so many other sports competing for fans, sponsorship and attention, means that we ARE unique in Europe (again - show me any other country which has 4 sports genuinely competing for attention ?). So my point is that unless a pyramid system is augmented in a sensible way, it'll just result in an LOI with even less regional spread than at current. Which I'll explain in a minute, with evidence.
You accuse me of putting words in your mouth, and then you do exactly the same thing to me. I've been very clear if you read my last few pots on this, and I'll spell it out again here. THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID. But - and this is the crucial bit - leaving it just to Darwinism won't work, and will just led to an LOi that is even more concentrated in a small number of areas.
THE PROBLEM
So let's look at the problem with just a Darwinian pyramid. Everyone pretty much agrees that the last thing the LOI needs is more clubs in the very same places where it already has clubs. Yet if you look at the intermediate game- which would be the tier feeding into an LOI- where are all the strongest clubs ? They're in Dublin city, Cork City, Limerick City, Galway City. In otherwords - they're in places where we already have an LOI club, and no-one really believes things would be better off with another one. And there is evidence to support this view (and none for the 'a pyramid will just naturally work out' view).
THE EVIDENCE
The problem is that Intermediate football in Ireland is not at all evenly spread in terms of either strength or presence. The strongest intermediate structures are in Dublin city (the LSL), and hopefully we can all agree that even more LOI teams in Dublin are unlikely to be great for Irish football. If you look at the MSL, it is almost entirely clubs from in and immediately around Cork City. Of its 10 Senior Premier teams, only 1 club is not from the Cork city area = Middleton. Though at barely over 20kms from Cork city it's hardly out of the orbit of the existing LOI club there. Cobh Wanderers are also in the MSL Top tier, but are arguably in the commute belt for Cotk City - plus a second LOI team in Cobh would just be beyond crazy. And the second tier of the MSL has only 2 of its 10 teams not from the Cork city area (Bandon and Blarney). Connacht hasn't had a senior league for about two decades now - and when it did it was dominated by teams from Galway city, and the occasional dominance by Galway United or Sligo Rovers reserves. And the last time the LOI had a 3rd tier attached, it resulted in there being 3 clubs from Galway city in the senior game, which everyone acknowledges was a disaster. So that leaves the Ulster Senior League, which is dominated by teams in the east of the county - in proximity to the existing LOI club there, plus the Reserves form Derry and Harps. Again - none of which would be considered by most people to help the LOI to have in the senior game.
There are other leagues in other places that clubs participate in etc, but the overall picture is undeniably of intermediate football generally being strongest in the cities and/or areas where there already are LOI teams.
On top of that - whilst there is no national intermediate league to know who would be the top dogs every year if you put them all together in some ay to feed into the LOI, there is an Intermediate Cup. Which - accepting for it being a knockout tournament - has tended to produce a very consistent picture about the geography of the best teams in that tournament. They're usually from either Dublin city or Cork City. In fact - with the exception of the Maynooth University team in 2018, you have to go back 25yrs for a winner who wasn't from Dublin or Cork Cities (to clarify - I am aware that Avondale are from Carrigaline and Rockmount are from Whitechurch, but they're basically commuting suburbs of Cork city). Two teams in particular - Avondale United and Crumlin United - dominated the cup in the last decade, showing that their success wasn't just a lucky cup run.
Then let's look at who the weakest teams in the LOI are at the moment. It's basically Wexford and Athlone by some distance.
So if we had a Darwinian pyramid system in place right now, we'd more than likely be taking an intermediate team from an area which already HAS an LOI team and swapping out a provincial team instead. And we'd probably do it repeatedly over time - thereby concentrating the League into an even smaller geographical spread. With no guarantee that the likes of Athlone or Wexford would make it back up again any time soon (or even stay in football, in the case of Wexford).
THE SOLUTION - An Augmented Pyramid
So what I'm proposing is to HAVE a pyramid system. I repeat - HAVE A PYRMAID ! But instead of just letting nature take its course - we accept that that seems likely to have negative overall consequences for the spread of the LOI. And therefore that we should do what we can to try to ensure that doesn't happen, without upsetting the way that football works. Hence the idea of looking at clubs with real potential around the county (in terms of population, facilities etc) and working with them to get them into better shape organisationally etc, so that they are better able to compete with clubs in either the cities or in areas which already have an LOI presence. Because they're obviously not able to compete consistently with them in the likes of the MSL, USL or Intermediate Cup right now - as the evidence shows. So help the likes of Castlebar Celtic, Tralee Dynamoes, Mullingar Athletic/Town etc etc - EXISTING CLUBS, NOT FRANCHISES - to be more competitive and to hopefully instil in them a desire to want to progress up the pyramid so they are able to COMPETE their way there (not be parachuted in).
Hopefully that explains what I'm proposing, the rationale behind it, and the evidence that undermines it. Feel free to present evidence which shows that it isn't likely a Darwinian pyramid will just shrink the reach and geographical spread of LOI football if you have it. Thanks.
Last edited by EatYerGreens; 05/12/2020 at 10:35 PM.
I may just have been beaten on lengthy posts by EYG
Working in literally every other league in Europe (except Holland, bizarrely) is a fairly good argument.
Lots of leagues have member instability, particularly as you go east. Take the Latvian top flight in 2010. Ten teams, of which only three are still in existence in the same form today (Ventspils, Daugava and Jelgava) Or the Lithuanian top flight of the same season - 11 teams, of which 6 don't exist any more. Or take the 2010/11 top flight in larger Bulgaria - 16 teams, of which only 7 haven't been expelled, gone backrupt or forcibly relegated in that time (and one of those has suffered four relegations). The LoI has had its upheaval in that time - of the 2010 league, Sporting Fingal and Galway left. But I think I've shown instability elsewhere - or I can show more leagues if you want.
I've already covered the suggestion that football is Ireland's fourth spot, but I will add that if the only three football clubs in the country were Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and Galway United, and if they had all the national team players playing for them, and if they were regularly playing and beating Celtic, Rangers, Arsenal, Man Utd, PSG, etc, then the interest would be way in excess of rugby's at the moment. Football is bigger than rugby here; the LoI though is not bigger than the Pro14. You're mixing that up.
So straight off, let's dismiss with your suggestion that Ireland is different. It's just not.
The thing is, you can say "THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID", but if what you then describe isn't a pyramid, then it doesn't matter how many caps you use, I can still call you out on that. And selecting teams to support based on an analysis of regional areas where senior clubs could fit in and then actively supporting them in a bid to be elected to a closed-shop senior system in 5/10 years' time is not a pyramid.
I don't really agree with this. There is nothing to be gained by, say, barring Crumlin United (who aren't interested in promotion, but let's say they were) while leaving Wexford in the league to get beaten 8-0 every week just because Wexford happen to play outside Dublin. There's certainly nothing to be gained by barring Crumlin and reprieving Cabo from relegation. You don't seem to get that a point of a pyramid is that unsuitable teams get relegated out just as quickly as they get promoted in.
But I will also point out (and have before pointed out) that the LSL/MSL are badly-organised leagues in their geographic specificity. Again, for a pyramid to work, then the whole thing has to be properly joined up, rather than this 19th century anachronism of Meath/Wexford/Wicklow District Leagues. Put Arklow Town/Navan Town/North End/whoever in the LSL and they will improve by virtue of playing stronger opposition and being able to attract/keep stronger players. Who wants to play in the Meath District League? It's no wonder these teams aren't great. And similar would hold for Munster (albeit that the Limerick portion in particular is probably much better defined)
Why should Athlone or Wexford have guaranteed spots in the LoI? They're ****ing basket cases of clubs. You say you want a pyramid but then you suggest Athlone or Wexford should have guaranteed spots in the LoI - that doesn't stack up. If in a pyramid they were to get relegated to the next level down (the LSL, say), then the onus is on them to put their house in order, come back stronger and earn promotion by merit. Your suggestion is to leave them there to ship double-figures because of where they come from. That can't possibly improve things. And in the meantime, North End United might win the LSL but you'd tell them "Thanks but no thanks" even though they might be better equipped for senior football than Wexford?
Set it out for us there so. Because you don't have a pyramid - but I'm curious to see what you think you think is a pyramid.
Because when I see stuff like -
Then you're clearly not talking about a proper pyramid system.
I get that they're existing clubs - but if you're supporting/promoting them on the basis of their geographic location, potentially above another club in the same area (see your Wexford/North End United bias for example), then what you're effectively saying is that Tralee would get the senior franchise for football in Kerry.
Hold on a sec there - earlier you spoke about "By the start of the 2024 season everyone involved should be clear on if and who is ready to join the league the following season". If you're saying that selected clubs have a target year to join the league if they meet set criteria - of which being good on the pitch isn't mentioned - then you absolutely are talking about parachuting them in.
So the problem here is that -
1) You keep thinking Ireland is different (when I've shown it's not)
2) You keep saying you're proposing a pyramid system while every suggestion you give actually indicates the opposite
3) You think regional spread is the only thing that is really holding the league back, and that cannon-fodder like Athlone or Wexford are benefitting the league at present purely because they're not in Dublin (with all due respect to Wexford and Athlone fans of course)
4) You think the league will be benefitted by taking teams currently not good enough for the top of the LSL/MSL, giving them a couple of token League Cup games, maybe having them play against each other, and giving them a bit of a talk on how to fundraise, and once those clubs join the league, it will be the better for it? But you've shown no reason why this would actually work
You can see why I'm not taking your suggestion overly seriously when compared to the alternative which works in every country in Europe (again, with the bizarre exception of Holland)
Last edited by pineapple stu; 06/12/2020 at 9:11 AM.
a certain red & white flag with a black emblem most associated with 1930's & 40's Germany. Was hung in the home fans side of the Brandywell a number of years ago, granted it was removed fairly quickly. But the fact is was there in the first place s a disgrace
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form is temporary, class is permanantI may just have been beaten on lengthy posts by EYG
“Was removed quickly”
Not surprised. It is Derry. Whilst if Mussolini or Idi Amin promised enough free stuff Donegal people would vote for them.
I officially give up. No matter how many times I make it clear that I support a pyramid system - you know, where teams get promoted up and down on the pitch - you continually tell me that I'm not.
So it's pointless. I give up.
Donegal is solid sinn fein now and they promise everything for free for everyone and no one has to pay due to the magic money trees growing on the beara penisula so he kind of has you there guys
Except you haven't shown that. You've described a system where you select potential new clubs, help them with fundraising plans and say if they meet targets (none related to on-pitch performance), then they'll be in the league in 5 years. You've described a system where Athlone and Wexford shouldn't be relegated as they'd have no guarantee of being promoted again. You've described a system where you would actively prevent clubs from certain parts of the country being promoted.
I don't know what you think a pyramid is, but that's not one.
In the meantime you think no other country in Europe has the problems we do with clubs folding, that what happened at Bury and Tralee is comparable, and that rugby is a bigger sport than football here. You want regional teams with local support, decent facilities and that are well-run, but you point to Warrenpoint as a black mark for the IL.
I wonder at times if you know what you're talking about.
Just for clarity - my pyramid would be PD -> FD -> LSL/MSL/USL/CSL and have those then go all the way to the bottom, regionalising as you go further down. Or you could remove the FD from that and expand the PD. Either way, any team can - subject to licensing - go from the bottom to the top and back again by winning (or losing) games, not by having a pretty (or ugly) face
What's your pyramid so we can be clear what you're talking about?
Last edited by pineapple stu; 06/12/2020 at 1:40 PM.
There's a million and one ways a pyramid system works in Ireland, and none of which the FAI are willing to do. Especially while so many of the FAI council members have vested interests in junior and intermediate leagues.
The only hope is the new CEO guy making a bold move to reform football here, but even that seems incredibly unlikely.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Yet again you're just making stuff up.
It's pointless, so I'm done.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised to see a fan of a small club with no fans in Dublin argue in favour of a system that seems likely to result in more small clubs with no fans from Dublin in the league#SelfProtection
What am I making up?
If you want to actually pick a point and argue it, I'm happy to do that. But you keep on posting stuff that's demonstrably untrue and then whining when you're called up on it, all without actually saying anything to counter my points.
Oh, and UCD were promoted from 8th in the LSL to the LoI B, and from 8th in the LoI B to the LoI. That's daft, and an inherent weakness in the current structure. Which, as far as I can see, is very similar to what you want (except that Dublin/Cork teams wouldn't be allowed)
I'll ask you again - what's your proposed league structure so we can see if it constitutes a pyramid or not. Because when you say "I WANT A PYRAMID" and then describe something the complete opposite, it reminds me an awful lot of Donald Trump saying "WE WON THIS ELECTION", and then telling people they're making stuff up when they challenge him on what he's saying.
Lots of examples. Like where you claimed I said Athlone and Wexford shouldn't be relegated.
You repeatedly twist, change and distort what people say to try to boost your own arguments. So it's pointless trying to debate with you.
And I've spelled out really clearly how an augmented pyramid should work - so more bullcrap from you to say I either haven't, or that it's the complete opposite of a pyramid. It's exactly the same as a pyramid - with promotion up and down on the pitch. The only difference is you seek to encourage and enable clubs in areas where the game arguably needs strengthening to be able to compete. If they then can't on the pitch, then so be it. Because that's how a pyramid works (d'uh).
Like I said- I'm done now. Pointless trying to debate with someone who can't read what's written in front of them without distorting it.
Last edited by EatYerGreens; 06/12/2020 at 3:12 PM.
If it's of any help, I haven't really got a clue what you're trying to propose either..
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
It's really hard to see what you mean by this -
- other than the suggestion that it would be a bad thing for Athlone/Wexford to be relegated and replaced by a Dublin/Cork side because there's "No guarantee that they'd make it up again any time soon". Hence my point that you're happy to keep two awful teams in the league purely on geographical grounds. Nothing made up.
(You, meanwhile, have made up that my suggestion has been tried for the past 100 years, that no league is as bad for the LoI at losing clubs, that football is smaller than rugby here, that I'm saying my solution is a silver bullet...)
I'll ask you for a fourth time - what is your actual pyramid structure? As in, how do the divisions feed into each other in your mind? Because no matter how many times you say you've described it, you haven't. You have said you want to target clubs based on population area, support those at the expense of others, give them a target to meet some deadlines and then they join the league on x date regardless of how they're doing on the pitch. That's not a pyramid.
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