England V Republic of Ireland - Thursday, 12th November 2020 - Friendly

[pineapple stu]

I think there's a number of promising players coming through, but it'd be wrong to think they're necessarily ready yet. And they won't all make it either. I think they have to be taken on their club merits and playing for Rochdale isn't really the standard we need. Granted, Travers and Kelleher aren't setting the world alike either of course.

But the advantage of promoting the U21 manager is that he'll know the players coming through. If he thinks Bazunu isn't worth a call up yet, I think we have to respect that unless it's obviously not the case. And the same for the suggestion at the start of the thread that Dundalk might have someone (McMillan or Hoban) - again, Kenny's worked with these players and would call them up if they could add something. And in the meantime, we're seeing O'Shea, Knight and Molumby come through and settling in well.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I do broadly agree with you, but I think on this point, the batterings by Belgium and France in 2016 were on par with the batterings we took across 2012. We then drew 1-1 against a Sweden side who didn't manage a single shot on target, and were fortunate enough to play Italy's B team when they had already qualified. Does that count as acquitting ourselves very well? I'm not so sure it does, and in that case it's just another point on the steadily downwards slope we've been on since what - 2002?

Remember at Euro 2016 we had the oldest squad at the tournament by a distance. It's not so easy to compare the two qualifying campaigns because we've lost so many players since then and the replacements just aren't coming through - Given, Keane, O'Shea, Hoolahan, Walters, Long. Who's replaced them, even as squad players? Travers, Idah, Duffy, Byrne, Connolly, Curtis? That's a much wider structural issue in Irish football which is outside Kenny's control (though he's done what he can in terms of raising Irish football's profile and technical focus at club and U21 level)

As I say, broadly I agree with what you've put in the post (which is a lot!), but I think those points are worth being clarified.

I don't think we were battered by France? They were the better team no doubt but we took the lead and McClean blew the chance to square it to Murphy. I do get your point, maybe acquitting ourselves very well is overstating it but compared to 2012 it was far better. I think a lot of players playing then are still around now. Randolph, Coleman, Duffy, McCarthy, Hendrick, Brady, MCclean, Long and players like Egan, Stevens, McGoldrick (for a while) came along. And there are the most promising group of youngsters coming through than we've had in a long time. We're certainly not overpopulated with amazing talent but Kenny is in a better spot than McCarthy was when he took over.

[pineapple stu]

It was better than 2012 - though we had a really tough group in 2012, whereas in 2016 we had a poor Sweden side and a disinterested Italy B.

The second half against France was one-way traffic really. They scored twice, Duffy was sent off preventing a certain goal, they hit the bar, and I have a memory of them running the ball into the corner for some bizarre reason a couple of times when they'd cut us open again. The first half of the second half, for example, which included both goals and the red card, saw France have 75% possession. The early peno gave us something to hold on to, and we gave it a bash, but ultimately we were outclassed, in part because France brought on Coman for Kanté at half-time - that sub said "These are rubbish; we don't need a holding mid, we just need to get at them), and it was entirely correct.

We were as far off the pace against France and Belgium as against Spain, Croatia and Italy imo.

I presume you mean Kenny is in a better spot than McCarthy was when he took over for the second time? I'll agree with that. It's certainly closer to the junior players coming through. But until they do, I'm not counting any chickens! We've had Keith O'Neill, Alan Moore, Curtis Fleming, etc, come along for a dozen games and then not make a real impact.

[Bungle]

Luxemburg playing nice stuff here in Cyprus.

Nice crisp positive passing.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the Lux senior team has been decent for a couple of years now at least.

[Charlie Darwin]

Kenny seems fixated with pseudo tiki taka.

Can I ask a simple question? If Kenny is fixated with "pseudo tiki taka" why hasn't he sent his players to do it?

Or do you think the idea of passing the ball five yards to be "pseudo tiki taka"?

[Charlie Darwin]

We have looked very flakey at the back against everyone we've played except Slovakia. A 5-0 or 6-0 wouldn't have flattered England at all. Finland played us twice, home and away, and created quite a few opportunities in both games. Some of the goals we've conceded have been comical.

We've looked flaky at the back against everyone we've played for 20 years.

[Bungle]

I think the Lux senior team has been decent for a couple of years now at least.

They play nice football. Should have been 2 or 3 up before they had a man sent off and gave away a peno.

If we played like they did in Cyprus before giving away the penalty and getting a red card, I would be a happy man.

I do think the underage teams play good football so hopefully in the coming years we will be better to watch.

[Stuttgart88]

We've looked flaky at the back against everyone we've played for 20 years.

I actually think that in the 4 games before Wembley any chances or goals we’ve conceded have been individual errors. Finland made two good chances but it’s football, teams make chances. And even England’s first goal was sloppy by Randolph and then weak by Duffy. Bulgaria away was all about Hourihane then Duffy. Wales created little, Finland at home was all about losing the ball cheaply. Slovakia created one good chance.

I don’t think we’ve defended well but I don’t think we’ve been noticeably worse.

I’m not confident I’ll be standing by this post at 7pm tonight though!

[Kingdom]

I actually think that in the 4 games before Wembley any chances or goals we’ve conceded have been individual errors. Finland made two good chances but it’s football, teams make chances. And even England’s first goal was sloppy by Randolph and then weak by Duffy. Bulgaria away was all about Hourihane then Duffy. Wales created little, Finland at home was all about losing the ball cheaply. Slovakia created one good chance.

I don’t think we’ve defended well but I don’t think we’ve been noticeably worse.

I’m not confident I’ll be standing by this post at 7pm tonight though!

Listen, we've conceded goals against **** teams even in our "golden" eras.
Andorra, Malta, Cyprus, San Marino, Moldova, even Gibraltar. Gibraltar ffs! Even when we've been a backs-to-the-wall team, who ceded possession regularly by design :-) we conceded goals.

I've got to be honest here, I'm genuinely surprised with cfdh edmundo's post, for someone so well educated in football, and intelligent in general.

[Closed Account 2]

We've looked flaky at the back against everyone we've played for 20 years.

I don't think that's true, we were reasonably solid under Trap (at least at the start). Going back a bit further in the "Dudu Awate" qualifying group (France, Switzerland, Israel) we were quite solid, we went to France in 2004 and held out for a 0-0. We also played the Dutch in Amsterdam (just before Euro 2004) and beat them 1-0.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think that's true, we were reasonably solid under Trap (at least at the start). Going back a bit further in the "Dudu Awate" qualifying group (France, Switzerland, Israel) we were quite solid, we went to France in 2004 and held out for a 0-0. We also played the Dutch in Amsterdam (just before Euro 2004) and beat them 1-0.

Well we've certainly had good spells, but under Trap we seemed to concede in almost every game, and then there was the Russian and Germany games at home. Even under Mick Mark 1 we were always liable to concede, because we've never been amazing at the back since the McGrath days.

[Closed Account 2]

I think the Trap pre Euro 2012 saw us playing quite well defensively. We played Italy (who were World Champions) 3 times in around 2 years. We drew 2 (1-1 & 2-2) and won one (a friendly out in Liege). In the play-off vs France at home we were a bit subdued and let one goal in, we all know about the second leg in Paris, we genuinely didn't look like conceding that night until Henry cheated.

If we ignore the Liege friendly we played home and away against both finalists from the previous World Cup. We lost one match and drew three.

[Stuttgart88]

We shipped 6 at home to Germany, 4 to Spain in Gdansk and 3 going on 20 at home to Russia. Overall I think we were quite tight in general though.

[Closed Account 2]

The Russia game was the only one that stands out, we were completely bamboozled by the off the ball movement of their attacking players, the mobility of Dzagoev and Arshavin in the channels and the physical presence of Kherzakov caused us a lot of issues. I remember seeing it in front of me and thinking we might have been able to deal with either the movement or the physical presence but not both at the same time. Interestingly two of those players (plus Zryianov behind them and Pogrebnyak who came on later) had shone for Zenit in their UEFA Cup campaign around 18 months earlier, Bayern Munich had been torn apart even worse than us. Arshavin was pulling strings like in the early part of his Arsenal career, he was as influential as during the 4-4 at Anfield. It was bad to concede three in just over a half, but we did steady the ship in the second half - Trap took off Whelan & (effectively) Liam Lawrence and replaced them with Fahey (very underrated) & Gibson. It was a really good tactical changed which gave us the initiative and presence in midfield and with Long coming on we got two late goals and the Russians wobbled.

The Spain game at the Euros was difficult, we were in a group of death an losing to Croatia in the first game meant we were facing the reigning European and World Champions in a must win game. Some would say Spain circa 2008-12 was one of the best international teams of modern times. In retrospect the Euros were a disaster, the team was too old and it was a campaign too far for some of our best players (Shay Given); it also started unravelling for Trap as a manager during the Euros.

[Bielsa´s irish]

The Russia game was the only one that stands out, we were completely bamboozled by the off the ball movement of their attacking players, the mobility of Dzagoev and Arshavin in the channels and the physical presence of Kherzakov caused us a lot of issues. I remember seeing it in front of me and thinking we might have been able to deal with either the movement or the physical presence but not both at the same time. Interestingly two of those players (plus Zryianov behind them and Pogrebnyak who came on later) had shone for Zenit in their UEFA Cup campaign around 18 months earlier, Bayern Munich had been torn apart even worse than us. Arshavin was pulling strings like in the early part of his Arsenal career, he was as influential as during the 4-4 at Anfield. It was bad to concede three in just over a half, but we did steady the ship in the second half - Trap took off Whelan & (effectively) Liam Lawrence and replaced them with Fahey (very underrated) & Gibson. It was a really good tactical changed which gave us the initiative and presence in midfield and with Long coming on we got two late goals and the Russians wobbled.

The Spain game at the Euros was difficult, we were in a group of death an losing to Croatia in the first game meant we were facing the reigning European and World Champions in a must win game. Some would say Spain circa 2008-12 was one of the best international teams of modern times. In retrospect the Euros were a disaster, the team was too old and it was a campaign too far for some of our best players (Shay Given); it also started unravelling for Trap as a manager during the Euros.

Trap was good as long as Liam Brady was his local link man, 2008-2010

[paul_oshea]

Really?

From the Caoimhin Kelleher thread:

You mentioned context when i quote stuff you said, I was very clear, I had said previously its very difficult to judge a player without seeing a few consecutive games, people got excited because he played senior football at 16. I saw two of those games and I thought he did very well, for a 16 year old, playing mens football for the very first time. But as I had said previously you need to see him in a few games consecutively, 2 is definitely not enough to judge him on.

[paul_oshea]

I endorse this. Add it to the below. Paul, you have two days to complete the task.



And to prove how serious I am, now you have one day.

SOrry whats this about? Is there a line item in MP and a task estimation?

[Stuttgart88]

You mentioned context when i quote stuff you said, I was very clear, I had said previously its very difficult to judge a player without seeing a few consecutive games, people got excited because he played senior football at 16. I saw two of those games and I thought he did very well, for a 16 year old, playing mens football for the very first time. But as I had said previously you need to see him in a few games consecutively, 2 is definitely not enough to judge him on.

If I felt you were clear I wouldn't have commented on it. Your post was far from clear.

[tetsujin1979]

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