England V Republic of Ireland - Thursday, 12th November 2020 - Friendly

[paul_oshea]

I don't believe they do. You see kids playing football in Spain. It's about technique, first touch, passing, space. We don't teach that here in a lot of places. I hear a lot of "Get rid of it" if a kid gets the ball in defence and is under pressure. Let him make a mistake. I see a lot of parents and coaches advocating getting the ball back to front as quickly as possible and I see a lot of kids praised because they can kick it the furthest and kick it the hardest. None of that promotes a culture that will allow us to play the type of football Kenny wants.

I actually think the GAA hurts us a lot in this respect. Not in terms of taking players or some of the other stuff you hear. I mean in terms of how they coach kids to play their games. They tell kids to get the ball/sliotar and get it forward as quick as possible. The further you can kick/hit it the better. And they are right to do that because that's the best way to play their games. But then the next night kids come to football training and they're being taught to look for space. That sometimes you have to go sideways or backwards with the ball. And at 8, 9, 10 years of age, it's very hard to reconcile those approaches.

Fair enough, I can't comment on home really as I don't see it, but I've seen plenty of underage here in the Uk and the lower level stuff is definitely just as bad as when I was playing as a kid, even though the coaching sessions seem much better. And the GAA has adapted to a possession at all costs game, fist passing all the time, so it sounds like the inverse of what the problem in football is i.e. TDT not from the bottom up.

[pineapple stu]

England have changed over the last 10-15 years, i thought they peaked in 2019 and haven't looked the same, but again that's not relevant really, we still drew with them in 2013 and 2015 when they were still blowing away Montenegro 4-1, a much stronger montenegro than the one we see now

England peaked last year and haven't looked the same since?

That's a bit of a bizarre comment given they didn't play in the first 8 months of the year, and covid games are different for lots of reasons (no fans, different prep, players probably not at the same tempo at club level, etc)

They did beat the top-ranked team in the world last month (Belgium), having lost to them twice in the 2018 World Cup for example, but presumably that's not quite "the same"?

Also, England played Montenegro six times in the 2010s. There was the 12-1 "aggregate" hammering last year, but there were 3 qualifying draws in 2010, 2011 and 2013 (and the fourth was a 4-1 win). Montenegro are higher-ranked now than at any time since 2013.

[paul_oshea]

Sorry I meant to say 2018, I do having watched a few of their games, but then again Southgate has made lots of changes and played several new players and introduced new players to the squad, but I have felt they havent looked as good as 2018

Montenegro were still a relatively "new" footballing country, so I'd imagine starting off at bottom seeds like they were with us, would have played a big part in that. THey were definitely stronger back then than now.

[pineapple stu]

So you think they peaked in 2018 and haven't been the same since, but in 2019 they scored 38 goals in 10 games?

Sorry - not buying it.

What does Montenegro's age as a footballing country have to do with it? Bottom line is they held England to three draws at the start of the decade, so it's not correct to suggest, as you did, that it was our 2013/2015 draws were at a time when England were still beating Montenegro 4-1. They did that on one occasion and didn't win any of the other games. England have improved since 2013/2015 and we have disimproved. Our two draws are irrelevant now.

[jbyrne]

Sorry I meant to say 2018, I do having watched a few of their games, but then again Southgate has made lots of changes and played several new players and introduced new players to the squad, but I have felt they havent looked as good as 2018

IMO England are much better now than the team that got 4th in the last WC. Their current stength in depth is frightening

[Diggs246]

They could easily win the Euros, they never left 2 gear last night

[paul_oshea]

What does Montenegro's age as a footballing country have to do with it? Bottom line is they held England to three draws at the start of the decade, so it's not correct to suggest, as you did, that it was our 2013/2015 draws were at a time when England were still beating Montenegro 4-1. They did that on one occasion and didn't win any of the other games. England have improved since 2013/2015 and we have disimproved. Our two draws are irrelevant now.

It has everything, their rankings would have been poor as they were a new footballing country, they had to build up points and their seeding, which they did as a good team in their formative years, back then their seeding/ranking was lower than where it should have been, but now its higher than where they really are in ability. The montenegro from early 2010s isnt the same as now, yet they got beaten 4-1 by England. THey team is much worse now and they got tanked 5-1 and 7-0, a much worse side than when england beat them 4-1 back in 2013, but we still drew with England. THe point is England were still hammering(by more now yes) them, the year we still managed to draw with England.

If the Euros go ahead with crowds, England wont win it dont worry about that.

[geysir]

I have only watched the first half so far. I liked Kenny's co commentary, his positivity about the way we could play our game and the gap to overcome. Hendrick and Molumby should start the next game. I think we have to totally forget about half crocked McCarthyArter (we'll never find that recipe again).

O'Neill had us set up perfect at home to Germany and also in the away fixture where the game was kept within reach of a result, sometimes we will have to set up like that when playing top teams. Kenny had us set up to play against a similar level team or one within range.
What matters are the next two games and if players are too downhearted after losing to England, they can go to the back of the queue.

For the second goal, I see Shane nearly got his considerable boot to the ball, his reaction was faster than Randolph's.

[tetsujin1979]

That's a very fair point, i could produce a handful of pieces to back up the same which Kenny said himself back in the day when asked about Ireland squads and his players. It just goes to show Managers should really say nothing about their players as the subjective being objective is never the case.

In Byrnes case given the opposition and the general lack of scoring, and his ability to both shoot from distance and setup scoring chances it does seem shortsighted.

Could you? Then you probably should.

Still waiting on this "handful". To make it fair, a handful is defined as a minimum of five.
I expect you to do better than the minimum

[pineapple stu]

It has everything, their rankings would have been poor as they were a new footballing country, they had to build up points and their seeding, which they did as a good team in their formative years, back then their seeding/ranking was lower than where it should have been, but now its higher than where they really are in ability. The montenegro from early 2010s isnt the same as now, yet they got beaten 4-1 by England. THey team is much worse now and they got tanked 5-1 and 7-0, a much worse side than when england beat them 4-1 back in 2013, but we still drew with England. THe point is England were still hammering(by more now yes) them, the year we still managed to draw with England.

Their seeding is irrelevant though. They were bottom seeds in the 2010 campaign (when they drew home and away with us), but were up to a top 50 side by the time of 2012, when they drew home and away with England. They were second seeds when they drew 0-0 with England again in 2014 (and when they lost 4-1), and they were ranked in the world's top 50 again last year when they lost 12-1 on aggregate. They had a had campaign, sure, and they're slightly lower-ranked than in the early 2010s, but not by enough to explain going from 4-1 over four games to 12-1 over two games. And not by enough for you to make a deal out of drawing twice with England while ignoring Montenegro drawing three times with then.

[paul_oshea]

Foot.ie needs a "I don't agree, but I appreciate your post " button

[Stuttgart88]

The 13 was fairly obvious no? We had 13 or so players over 90 minutes that we could comment on, 11 of those obviously at any one time, and for only the first 15 mins did we look half decent. Didn't think I'd need to explain or you would get that nitty gritty

Why even bother reference Mick and the Shay thing at all, I don't understand it? OR are you comparing kelleher to Given? We were discussing the system, the team and the players from last night. That's what I mean by obtuse, obfuscating by bringing in unnecessary references or peripheral points.

I think we agree overall on the players, but palpably ready I am still failing to understand what you wrote? The suggestion to me at least was that we were playing a young and inexperienced side, something I disagree completely with.

England have changed over the last 10-15 years, i thought they peaked in 2018 and haven't looked the same, but again that's not relevant really, we still drew with them in 2013 and 2015 when they were still blowing away Montenegro 4-1, a much stronger montenegro than the one we see now

I was hoping for a 1-0 yes, because I thought we had improved defensively and the general consensus was we were solid defensively, the "stats" backed that up with few goals conceded. I did mention back at the start of his reign about how poor we looked on the counter and the space being left between our midfield and defenders, but I thought since then we had improved substantially even though there was a slight doubt it was more to do with the opposition, however I was wrong. I don't mind admitting I was wrong, when I am, I am happy to admit it especially when the team proves me so! THere was many excuses for that first Bulgaria game, but i felt last night watching many parallels just a much better opposition to exploit it.

On that point i think thats about the space, I mentioned against bulgaria and less so in the finland game that we had massive space between defenders and midfielders that a fast counter attacking team would exploit. England didnt even need to do that as they ran around the middle pulling us apart with their intricate passing. Kennys system here is like releasing real rabbit on a Greyhound track, its a field day for the dog, cos they can get between the lines much easier. Against top tier teams we need to compact the midfield, two lines, and when we get the ball we can still pass it about, have a 1, a big man to hold the ball up when we get it and bring others into play. Scotland played that last night with Dykes up top alone when I was watching, what looked like a 3-5-1-1/3-4-1-2 or something to that effect. They utilised a big powerful unit to get the ball hold it up and bring others into play. He seemed to get a lot of praise for it by the pundits after the game.

Stutts a nice, gently reminder no need for name calling or stooping to personal insults. You are better than that

Why bother referencing Mick? I simply said toying with the idea of changing keeper was feasible, but unlike Mick when he brought in a teenage keeper, none of our other younger keepers is getting game time. It was a clear, simple point in a 100% transparent context. I don't see what was obscure about it all.

My point about the "not ready" needs to be taken in context of the full sentence I wrote, which was "we were missing key players and playing others who aren't ready". If I'd added "or not up to it at this level" I'm sure we'd have agreed. I'm torn on O'Dowda. He's not really young but I think it was elatedscum who said there's a really good footballer trying to get out, which is what I think. I'd say he's not ready, certainly not ready to have an impact against a good team already weakened. But I can see why you thought I was referring to several young players not ready.Point accepted.

In 2011 and even 2015 we still had ageing but experienced players on the pitch, of a much higher quality than we were able to put out last night. England are much better now than then. Young, quick, mobile and a goal threat from many players. A much more contemporary approach to the game too under Southgate.

I thought expecting anything at all last night with so many key players absent was fanciful. I think expecting to garner anything useful from the game was fanciful.

The point about Dykes upfront is the point I'm trying to make. A good solid 9 is key to making SK's ideas work, imho. Without one it's an uphill battle to make it work. Equally, without one it's hard to revert to our old way of playing either. So talk of "mixing it up" is misguided imho, as I'd expect the same result. Of course if mixing it up means replacing passive players like Hourihane with proactive players like Molumby, then yes, I'd say mix it up.

And as for the name calling, sure. When you stop insulting others' intelligence here and stop setting yourself up as some visionary that the rest of us poor wretches can't keep up with, yes, I'll be less personal. Agreed?

[paul_oshea]

Their seeding is irrelevant though. They were bottom seeds in the 2010 campaign (when they drew home and away with us), but were up to a top 50 side by the time of 2012, when they drew home and away with England. They were second seeds when they drew 0-0 with England again in 2014 (and when they lost 4-1), and they were ranked in the world's top 50 again last year when they lost 12-1 on aggregate. They had a had campaign, sure, and they're slightly lower-ranked than in the early 2010s, but not by enough to explain going from 4-1 over four games to 12-1 over two games. And not by enough for you to make a deal out of drawing twice with England while ignoring Montenegro drawing three times with then.

One of us is confused, I'm going with you :P YOu first mentioned higher ranked. WHy is it irrelevant now? I only mentioned it because I disagreed that the team now was not nearly as good as the team early years, and that seeding/ranking wouldn't show the real ability of the team. iT's very relevant in demonstrating where Montenegro really were and are now in actually judging how good they were. Anyway moving on.

[pineapple stu]

Seeding is irrelevant as that caught up slower than their world ranking, which I referred to.

They were fifth seeds while touching top 20 in the world. So I'm using the ranking as the more accurate measure of their quality.

[geysir]

They could easily win the Euros, they never left 2 gear last night

Should England top their group in the Euros, they then meet the runner up from the group of death in the last 16 (Dublin venue).

[pineapple stu]

Oh God. I think I have a ticket for that...

[geysir]

Oh God. I think I have a ticket for that...

England V France, Germany or Portugal, that could be a game of the tournament, with a happy ending.

[Bielsa´s irish]

I watched the game, at 1 am since iam teaching and doing my journalist work at home and the Argentina vs Paraguay had full coverage since 5 pm yesterday down here. It was broadcasted by Germán Sosa and comments made by former Real Madrid and Argentina right back Enrique "Quique" Wolff.
They said it was a match that Ireland started in a positive way and the english were on the wrong foot, but after the goal it all went down,, Wolff noticed that England were easy and comfortable and the irish didnt make them hard to play, no hurry no pressure no rush,
The team went down after that first goal which I agreed, then second half Wolff noticed that Ireland couldnt create counters attacks since they were all behind the ball, like protecting the defeat, so whenever Ireland gained possession couldnt creat danger at all because they were far and away from the english keeper.
And that is a tactic flaw, from S.K we couldnt create enough, and when we did we couldnt score, plus the team is morally down

[Bielsa´s irish]

The most worrying and appaling part of our performance yesterday was our lack of desire to hit a little bit, scratch the shin guards and calves, put a block, a trip, squeeze them, annoy them, take the game by the scruff of the neck, lacked attitude, a pinch of rebellion to the coach on the pitch, lack of urgency in 0-1 down, and just to protect the symbolism of the tricolor flag as a nation and the Irish soccer team as a symbol of the passion of its people for football. Yesterday's match was disrespectful to all the previous Irish players who put Ireland on the football worldwide map. McGrath, Ronnie, Moran, Lawro, Giles, Frank, Roy, Galvin, Beglin, Liam, Coyne, Phelan, Staunton, Sheedy, Irwin, Aldo, Robbie, Niall, Townsend, Houghton, Hughton, Given, Bonner, etc etc......and have earned respect and the feeling of fear-doubt of their rivals when face to face, And these opponents used to say "these Catholic guys are very tough, harsh, rough and proud they are almost invincible, they play with "their hearts in their hands" in all frankness and sincerity

[Razors left peg]

My take on yesterday is that we just need to move on and forget about it. It was stupid to take the game in the 1st place.

The 2 upcoming games are massive now. We simply have to win them for Kennys sake. I still think hes the right man and we are going in the right direction but if we lose both games I think I'll struggle to defend it any more.

We need to make changes. Hourihane needs to be taken out of the team. Ive been banging on about him for a while and he shows no sign of any improvement. Duffy was appalling yesterday and I would consider replacing him too if we are going to continue with playing ball out from the back. He put us under pressure so often yesterday by giving the ball away. The 2nd goal came from him giving away a stupid corner because he wasnt able to control the ball. Having said that our lack of urgency to close down the English player who go the ball on the right wing when it came out from the corner was worrying. I thought Browne and O'Dowda were terrible yesterday too, looked completely out of their depth, and Cyrus Christy show never be in another squad.

I think we've reached the point where Jack Byrne needs to start against Wales. Ive been against it up to now, but I do think we need to find out about him and see if he can give us something different in the 10 role, if it doesnt work then we can stop talking about it. Between injuries and COVID its a good excuse to play him. Id keep Idah up top and Horgan probably did enough yesterday to keep his place. Id have Brady on the left and Molumby in midfield ahead of Hourihane. If Egan is fit Id have Dara O'Shea at right back (Im assuming Coleman is out, I dont know what injury he has). Id seriously consider dropping Duffy but I dont think it will happen, but he needs to sort himself out rapid. The way he is going at the moment I wouldnt be surprised if Celtic try to cancel his loan.

I see that Stutts brought up goal keeper. I think we need to start thinking about giving game time to someone else, but I dont think the right keeper is in the squad. I would have promoted Bazunu to the seniors and left Kelleher with the 21s. It simply down to playing football. Ive seen no Rochdale games so I dont know how hes doing but since no one else is actually playing football he jumps to top of the queue by default.

If he starts the same team against Wales that started yesterday ( except Browne) and we go on to have another poor performance I think the questions about Kenny start to become serious, but I am confident that we will improve massively.