Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 101 to 111 of 111

Thread: Youth Player discussion

  1. #101
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Dublin, originally from Limerick
    Posts
    19,418
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    968
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,994
    Thanked in
    2,579 Posts
    Will spin this discussion out to its own thread
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

  2. #102
    Apprentice
    Joined
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    61
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Well that's not a very logical viewpoint. The league was better in the 2000s than in the 2010s because it did provide players for the national team. However, to provide players for the national team while they were still with LoI clubs would have meant the league being even stronger again, which it wasn't. But we need it to be.


    I'm not saying that. I'm saying a drop of 17 places is pretty sizeable.

    I'm also not saying that the Norwegian league is equal to the Austrian league - just that it's not that far behind that it accounts for Haaland's improvement. I'll say it again - Haaland would have continued to improve at Molde. I am not arguing against the idea that he needed to move abroad to improve - my point all along is that you can start domestically and move abroad at 20-22 sort of age (Haaland was 19 I think) into a first-team squad (not an academy). I'm arguing most players in fact do this and it is to our detriment that Irish players don't really have that option.


    (a) that's 35th, not 37th and (b) that's the ranking two seasons before the season I quoted, not the season before.


    What are you talking about? No points are taken away for losing games.


    It is far easier to qualify for the EL group stages now, starting from 2011/12 when CL qualifying round teams could drop down to the EL. I've shown you the evidence that the LoI is weaker than now in showing you the ranking. Your counter-argument is to entirely ignore the wholescale format changes which made it easier for champions of smaller leagues to reach the groups. That's not a valid argument.


    Why are you happy to ignore last season?

    Derry are not the club they were ten years ago, and they will probably be the first to acknowledge it.


    It's a lovely sentiment, but not borne out in reality. There's footballers turning pro at 16, so if you want to be serious about having a shot of joining them, you have to be taking the game seriously at 16.
    Itís logical because unless it was at the standard where it was producing NT players directly to the NT than itís a pointless argument.

    Not when you take the points into account. You need to take into account other leagues also improving and that generally the leagues change from year to year making it a pointless argument using the ranking a reason to justify your argument. When the gap is as big as the gap between Austrian league and the Norwegian league you can use that argument but when itís as tiny as it is itís pointless. It is pretty far behind, ask any Norwegian and they would tell you that, Haaland would have kept improving but he wouldnít be where he is now if he was still at Molde. Irish players do have that option.


    Are you seriously going to act as if 2 places is a big deal?

    Itís far easier for other countries too yet we still managed 3 qualifications.

    The ranking for 2021/2022 is the same as the ranking from 2009 which would indicate the league is as strong as 2009.

    Itís pointless using one team as an example to prove where a league is.

    Hereís some reality, forcing professionalism on kids is the reason we are in the mess we are currently in, thatís the reality of it. Kids need to enjoy football and by forcing kids to make decisions on their career when they are 16 is how you make a kid lose love for the game. Thankfully those involved in player development donít do that now so we wonít have to worry about that.

    You couldnít be more wrong on that point, couldnít be more wrong.

  3. #103
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    32,664
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,753
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,531
    Thanked in
    2,167 Posts
    To be honest, your posts are increasingly starting to be tangential at best, so I'm not entirely sure I'll be bothered continuing this for too much longer, but just to correct you on a couple of items -

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    It’s logical because unless it was at the standard where it was producing NT players directly to the NT than it’s a pointless argument.
    That argument makes no sense. My base point is that the national team needs a strong LoI to produce players, and our players need a strong LoI to give them professional opportunities at home. We were getting there in the 2000s (albeit that the whole thing was built on sand) and it was starting to have results. That the LoI would have to get stronger to have its players regularly in the national team doesn't take away from my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Not when you take the points into account. You need to take into account other leagues also improving and that generally the leagues change from year to year making it a pointless argument using the ranking a reason to justify your argument.
    What leagues have come into such significant cash that would back up your argument? Let's look at the leagues below us in 2008 (the infamous 35th position) -

    Macedonia, Iceland, Georgia, Liechtenstein, Belarus, Estonia, Azerbaijan, Albania, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Northern Ireland, Wales, Faroe Islands, Luxembourg, Malta, Montenegro, Andorra, San Marino

    You could take Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, and maybe Kazakhstan from that. Our record against Luxembourg teams is quite good (five match wins out of six in the past decade). We've beaten the only Kazakh team we've played, and lost to the only Azeri team we've played. What about Moldova, Lithuania, Latvia and Finland just above us? No particular cash injections there either tbh.

    Sorry, your point doesn't stand up I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Haaland would have kept improving but he wouldn’t be where he is now if he was still at Molde.
    See, the problem when I read comments like this is that this is actually exactly the point I'm arguing, but you can't see that it is.

    I'm saying that 90% of players in the last Euros started domestically and most of those outside the major leagues (England, Spain, Germany, etc) left their home country at the age of around 20-22 to a bigger club. I'm saying this is a more beneficial way of doing it than leaving home at 16 to go into a meat-farm academy. Haaland is a case in point. Of course he needed to move on at some (early) stage, as would any Irish player starting in the LoI. But you're still wrong to attribute his entire 2019 gain to simply joining Salzburg.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    Are you seriously going to act as if 2 places is a big deal?
    The year you chose - 2008 I think - was during a period when the league rose from 40th in 2004 to 29th in 2010. The nature of the UEFA rankings is that increases will lag slightly because you have to carry the previous five years with you. So we went from 40th in 2004 to 29th in 2010, and since then have slumped to 42nd (last year), and we're starting next year from 46th (because now we've an inverse lag in that we're currently holding Dundalk's 2016 EL qualification, which clearly isn't reflective of their standard at the moment).

    So it's quite clear that the league was on the way up in 2008 and probably under-rated (we hit 29th fairly quickly), and we're now lower than that (we're about to hit 46th). So yes, the rankings indicate that the league is weaker than ten or so years ago. As do the league's finances, the age of its players (it's a very young league, because the money isn't there to keep players from leaving for regular work), the quality of player it's producing, and general observations of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    It’s far easier for other countries too yet we still managed 3 qualifications.
    I think at this point you're not really trying to make a cogent argument to be honest. Your point was that the LoI, even in decline as I suggest, reached the EL Groups three times in the past decade. My reply was that it's far easier to do that now, so it's entirely possible for a league in decline to achieve that result. What other leagues have done is irrelevant to that point. (Other small leagues such as Albania and Luxembourg have also reached the EL groups in that time for example)

    Here’s some reality, forcing professionalism on kids is the reason we are in the mess we are currently in, that’s the reality of it. Kids need to enjoy football and by forcing kids to make decisions on their career when they are 16 is how you make a kid lose love for the game. Thankfully those involved in player development don’t do that now so we won’t have to worry about that.

    You couldn’t be more wrong on that point, couldn’t be more wrong.
    Nonsense. By all means let a young player treat football as "only a game". The odds are they'll probably be better for it. But the age when players are starting to break through into professional setups is absolutely a time to be serious about your game if you want to progress. How on earth could it not be? You won't get to the top with a devil-may-care jumpers-for-goalposts attitude.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 19/04/2021 at 7:02 PM.

  4. #104
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,377
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    23
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    87 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by CSAD View Post
    If the league was much better then than it would have been providing NT players, thatís the only way youíll convince me of this because right now no evidence points to it.
    Actually it's quite possible for the LOI to have been stronger back then without also providing more players to the NT.

    For instance because the numbers and quality of 16 y.o.s going over to GB 10 years before that might have been greater.

    And/or the NT might just have had a particularly settled squad of good, senior players at that time, meaning the manager didn't have to look to the LOI for players, the way SK might be forced to do soon. (Countries with small populations tend to see teams come in cycles - a few good years followed by a few lean years)

  5. #105
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    18,429
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,847
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,253
    Thanked in
    3,330 Posts
    The national team pool was a lot stronger back then alright but I think there has been a bit of a change in the LOI too that there are more players who look capable of international football. I mean Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe dominated this league but they were a million miles off international level, despite being full-time pros.

  6. #106
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,712
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    62
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    725
    Thanked in
    471 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    G1 - I think saying Idah / Obafemi & Kelleher have had Premiership breakthroughs is stretching it a good bit. Idah cant get in a Championship side all season, Obafemi needs to cop on badly and Kelleher, well no his is just not a significant breakthrough at PL level, it may become one but he's not there yet.

    G2 - Lot of smoke around the Mipo flight risk to England fire. Will believe it when I see him in green, wouldn't be too hopeful atm.

    G3 - Moulmby isn't playing regularly, he can't get in at Preston. Shipley has played less and less as the season has progressed and Ogbene isn't a regular, no.

    In G5 you forgot Jack Taylor who's club went eight points clear in the automatic places with five to play this weekend and he is a key player there. Crowley is heading in the wrong direction divisions wise and is not featuring at Hull regularly. Neither is Parrott as his difficult first season keeps getting worse.
    - Obafemi - 35 appearances in League and Cup, 5 goals, would have had significantly but for injuries (possibly the biggest worry about him). Only bad thing I can see about his attitude is he blurts out his feelings, which isn't much. Not the best first touch in the world, but works hard on the pitch, picks key passes well, is a tidy finisher when given the chance and, of course, is blisteringly fast. Probably behind Che Adams now (although his strike rate based on minutes played is actually better) so could do with a loan to a Championship side.
    - Idah - over 30 appearances, albeit mostly as a late sub. Not getting as much time as he deserves because Farke's system of Pukki alone upfront seems to be working - good enough for four caps, so yes, he is already good enough to play internationally
    - Kelleher - yes it's only two EPL and two Champions' League appearances but it showed the trust Klopp had in him at a time when Liverpool were still in the running for both - as we know, being a reserve goalkeeper doesn't lead to opportunities like other players - will hopefully get the loan he was due this season
    - Odubeko - my list wasn't designed to evaluate continued loyalty, just whether young players will be playing at a high level soon and Odubeko surely will be - but yes, time to ask him to start considering his future
    - In spite of playing a bit less recently, I think it's reasonable to expect that Molumby and Shipley will still be playing Championship football next season. Ogbene hasn't been playing because he's been injured (admittedly Rotherham will likely be relegated and he hasn't played enough that we can expect another Championship side to buy him)
    - I did miss Peterborough's lofty position in League One so, yes, add Jack Taylor to the list. While he may not have set the world on fire this season, Crowley will probably get another shot at The Championship next season and, once again, Wes Hoolahan

  7. #107
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Dublin, originally from Limerick
    Posts
    19,418
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    968
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,994
    Thanked in
    2,579 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Will spin this discussion out to its own thread
    Posts from the U23 2020-21 season thread spun off into their own discussion thread
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

  8. #108
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    32,664
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,753
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,531
    Thanked in
    2,167 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    The national team pool was a lot stronger back then alright but I think there has been a bit of a change in the LOI too that there are more players who look capable of international football. I mean Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe dominated this league but they were a million miles off international level, despite being full-time pros.
    Interesting point on Crowe and Byrne - although to be fair, we've a few players in the squad now who are a million miles off international level!

    Are there more LoI players now who look capable of international football though? Jack Byrne has done ok in his couple of caps but no more than that (an assist v Bulgaria, but got caught badly in possession in a recent games v Wales I think and that led to Hendrick's red) Graham Burke's cameo doesn't really count, albeit that he scored the softest international goal ever to be scored. Any other recent LoI call-ups - McEneff for example - have been out of pure desperation when covid decimated the squad.

  9. #109
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On a dodgy bus
    Posts
    11,547
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,789
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,457
    Thanked in
    2,017 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Interesting point on Crowe and Byrne - although to be fair, we've a few players in the squad now who are a million miles off international level!

    Are there more LoI players now who look capable of international football though? Jack Byrne has done ok in his couple of caps but no more than that (an assist v Bulgaria, but got caught badly in possession in a recent games v Wales I think and that led to Hendrick's red) Graham Burke's cameo doesn't really count, albeit that he scored the softest international goal ever to be scored. Any other recent LoI call-ups - McEneff for example - have been out of pure desperation when covid decimated the squad.
    It's long been said as a joke, but almost more serious now, that there's probably a handful of players in the LOI who'd do no worse than some of the performances we've seen over the past number of games.

  10. #110
    Apprentice
    Joined
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    61
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Iím at the point where I actually believe so too because atleast players in the Irish league would show some heart and would put everything on the line. Whatís really upsetting me with Ireland at the moment isnít the lack quality because weíve had that for god knows how long but the lack of heart or passion in playing for Ireland, it looks like most of the players are more worried about getting injured than putting their body on the line for Ireland and I donít remember that being the case in the past.

    Even in Serbia for the 1st and 3rd goal they were both easily avoidable but the Irish defenders just didnít have the heart to close down the Serbian player and in both cases the player was given acres of space to pick out a pass or get clear and eventually score. I honestly thought before the group just looking at the media that Luxembourg would be going into this campaign with more ambition than us and now after 2-3 games I donít even think thatís an outrageous statement anymore.

    Iím at the point where I wonder are Irish players faking injuries to avoid playing for Ireland because the number of injuries weíve had in 2 international windows now is nothing short of incredible to the point that surely there is more to it than the players just being injured.

  11. #111
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,712
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    62
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    725
    Thanked in
    471 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Posts from the U23 2020-21 season thread spun off into their own discussion thread
    A-Ha - I wondered where my last post had gone... thought I was losing it!

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11/09/2020, 4:30 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11/05/2020, 3:40 PM
  3. Player Payments Discussion
    By Kearney in forum Junior League
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 16/07/2013, 11:46 AM
  4. Player Payments Discussion
    By zicorossi in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08/09/2012, 4:13 PM
  5. Player Payments Discussion
    By zicorossi in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07/09/2012, 9:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •