QuoteHe’d be a massive improvement on what we have, but would he even consider declaring for a country languishing in the wilderness who can’t even attract a half decent manager?Originally Posted by SkStu
Recent post on here said Dewsbury-Hall is eligible.
He’d be a massive improvement on what we have, but would he even consider declaring for a country languishing in the wilderness who can’t even attract a half decent manager?
I don’t think he would at all, no, but hopefully he’ll be approached formally by the new guy - if he hasn’t already had prior approaches.
Well thus far, even when we had managers, it is obviously a no, he did not. There is no way it hasn't been offered to him IMO.
Looking at the England squad, and particularly the players in the same boat as him who aren't making their squads, he has a steep hill ahead of him there and age beginning to go against him, just about to. What would make it slightly more palatable our side is he has zero underage for them, nothing.
You are correct though, none of this happens without a manager and one looking like getting us going in the right direction at that.
Stephen Kenny Saviour, Leader, Winner, An Autobiography - In All Good Bookstores Now
Here we go once again -
according to stu and the other number crunchers - Bazunu is a sh*te goalkeeper.
A goalkeeper of a team that is fourth in the Championship despite a brutal start and has a poorly organised and poorly disciplined defence - a team where the approach of the manager is 'we will score more goals that youse will' - and despite that - the team is still doing well.
Is Bazunu the finished article - far from it - but he is a damned good goalkeeper. Goalkeepers come into their prime at around 30 years of age. There are 4/5 goalkeepers in the PL aged under 30 - about 7/8 under 30 in the Championship. If I am not mistaken - in the top two divisions there is one goalkeeper younger than Bazunu - Trafford at Burnley.
Southampton are in the play-off spots because of what they score, not what they concede - it is a recipe for disaster in the PL. Put any PL goalkeeper into a Southampton team that plays like Russell Martin's team does and they will ship goals.
Bazunu had a poor game against Ipswich - but so did pretty much the entire Southampton team. Prior to the recent period Southampton went on a significant streak of not losing - and Bazunu played a big part in that. But Southampton have a soft underbelly that causes them to ship a lot of goals, almost exclusively down to poor defending.
One of the articles linked above says that Bazunu has let in 11 goals more than 'would be anticipated given the quality of the attempts'. I dare anyone to find 11 goals out of the 51 Southampton have conceded this season that were Bazunu's fault. The nature of the goalkeepers job is that they will fail once, twice, three times in many games - it is a position in football where you are set up to fail - and very often the goalkeeper carries the consequences for the mistakes of the ten players in front of them.
Looking at stats without looking at the overall picture - and recognising everything that occurs in the process of a game is a mistaken approach.
Years ago Billy Beane and Paul DePodesta attempted to use sabermetrics in baseball - it worked for a season or two (and was primarily used to drive down wage costs in baseball) - but the Oakland A's have been and continue to be one of the poorest teams in baseball. Beane was forced over the years to significantly modify his approach (as did DePodesta and Riccairdi) because just analysing statistics does not work - they can play a role, but they often give misleading information and to ignore the myriad of other factors at play in a football (or baseball) game is a fool's errand.
Now - again - Bazunu is just 22 years old (and almost four years younger than Kelleher) - he was unfortunate that Southampton imploded just when he joined them - he will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper.
I have said this before - with the exception of Shay Given, both Kelleher and Bazunu are two of the best goalkeepers ever to play for Ireland and we are very lucky to have them. It will be a long time before the Irish team is so richly resourced at the position.
Trafford and Verbruggen are the only keepers in the Premier League younger than Bazunu. Trafford has been dropped for Muric. I'd say our Gavin has ten or fifteen years left at the top. He'll be fine.
1. Bazunu is a sh*ite goalkeeper.
I cannot find where this was said.
2. He is a damned good goalkeeper?
He is not a damned good goalkeeper until he proves himself a damned good goalkeeper.
3. Southampton or any other club will persevere until he peaks at 30?
Zero chance.
4. Southampton are in the play-off spots because of what they score, not what they concede?
Score more goals than you concede to win games. No?
5. The goalkeeper carries the consequences for the mistakes of the ten players in front of them?
He/she doesn't. Goalkeepers are expected to make saveable saves, rule the area, organise etc. They make mistakes too and should be accountable.
6. He will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper? I hope so and admire your staunch optimism for him. But an experience and proven goalkeeper will be a priority for Southampton next season whether in the EPL or Championship. His admirers claimed his EPL season would serve him well in the Championship. It hasn't. Being young is not enough.
Anois teacht an Earraigh / Beidh an lá dúl chun shíneadh,
Is tar eis na féil Bríde / Ardóigh mé mo sheol.
That's a pathetic strawman argument and you know it. All anyone argues here is that he's overrated by people like yourself, who attack anyone who dares question that Bazunu is beyond amazing - and we all know he's good - or that there might be another keeper even better than him.
And always with this crap. Bazunu is amazing and flawless and anyone arguing that he's less than perfect is a stupid doo-doo head, but he's also just a baby learning his trade and will be good in the future. You think anyone here isn't aware that Bazunu is young? That a young keeper will learn and improve? You think anyone here hasn't read that a thousand times already?Now - again - Bazunu is just 22 years old (and almost four years younger than Kelleher) - he was unfortunate that Southampton imploded just when he joined them - he will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper.
I'm tired of Bazunu's cheerleaders throwing a fit at anyone who dares not wield the pom-pom. I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit when someone says Ferguson's form has dipped. He's only a baby, he'll score more goals in the future. It's like a cult with you people.
Yep, the strawman stuff gets tiring alright. Bazunu is, at 22, almost four years younger than Kelleher - I said that in my own post. It'd only be relevant if people were writing Bazunu off, which no-one is doing. But it's not a basis on which to pick the team for the Hungary game. Do we start Bazunu because he'd save that shot in 3/4 years' time?
The "He's a ****e keeper" is a lazy argument too. Right now he's a poor Championship keeper (in my view, obviously). Is that ****e? It's better than 99.9% of keepers. And it's quantifiable at least, in a way that "He's ****e" isn't. He's clearly not, as JRG argues, a solid Premiership-level keeper who's better than anyone we've ever produced bar Given and (bizarrely) Farquharson.
I saw on the Southampton forum their fans talking about Leicester fans' views of him. There's a general Championship thread on the Leicester forum - they were watching Ipswich v Southampton closely, as it had obvious relevance to Leicester. The comments are interesting, from fans with no more skin in the game than a general annoyance that their main promotion rivals had turned around a deficit to win -
Should be saving that Bazunu reallyBazunu is just horrendousReally poor defending by Southampton and keeper never looks like saving anythingBazunu is utterly awful isn't heSouthampton's GK looks really poor, very Ward-esqueBazunu is a poor man’s WardBazunu is a worse shot stopper than Danny Ward, printing money bet o. 2.5 goalsWow Bazunu just keeps nothing out(Danny Ward was the Leicester keeper last year; had a PSxG of -5.5 when he was dropped last March and replaced by Iversen, who wasn't much better so they bought 23-year-old Mads Hermansen from Brondby, who's doing quite well)An absolutely useless goalkeeping performance has won the game for Ipswich there
I think there's no harm in being a bit concerned by Bazunu's lack of progress over the past two seasons. And no point in closing eyes and and pretending that it's all the defence's fault really.
I have never seen more strawman arguments and more accusations of strawman arguments in one thread.
And here I am, making a construable strawman argument and throwing more accusations at people about strawmen.
Tiresome.
Can I direct you towards the Stephen Kenny thread?
Damn Kennyite...
I'd probably be considered one of those cheerleaders though I'd say that I was more pushing back on what I thought was unfair or selective criticism going back several months, or even further. I think some of his performances for us under Kenny were really good and I don't think he got enough credit for them. I've been concerned by his recent form though, but I think he's good enough to pull through this and improve. Right now I think O'Leary is playing better.
Is the Burning Man made of Straw ?
So let's take a step back on this one -
As Stuttgart88 also said - my responses on this thread started as a push back against all the negativity being posted about Gavin Bazunu (and in particular the attempt to use stats to justify the negativity).
Gavin Bazunu is a very talented goalkeeper - he joined Man City at 16 years of age - at 18 he went out on loan to Rochdale (and was largely responsible for BBM getting hired by Man City as head of their EDS) - at 19 he spent a season at Portsmouth - and at 20 he took the decision and risk to leave Man City to get first team football at a high level. Kelleher, who I also greatly admire, joined Liverpool at 16, never went on loan and, after nine years, up until this season only played in the lower double digits of games for Liverpool (a decision that seems to be working out well for him). I think Bazunu deserves a lot of credit for being brave enough to make certain decisions, even if those decisions have not panned out.
Now - when Bazunu joined Southampton I thought it was a great move for him - I felt Hasenhüttl was a good manager and Southampton were a solid team. Then they turned out to be a dumpsterfire - and it was bound to have an impact on Bazunu's confidence and his development.
This season Southampton started by shipping a stack-full of goals - 4 against Norwich, 5 against Sunderland, 4 against Leicester - scoring 3 and conceding 12 in a four game losing streak - and the comments on here were all about how bad Bazunu was. I - and others - pointed out that the problem was the Southampton defence - not Bazunu - a goalkeeper is only ever as good as the ten players in front of him. Russell Martin defended Bazunu - saying if he was looking for a keeper Bazunu would be the one he would sign and that the problems with Southampton were not the goalie but the people in front of him.
Martin appeared to sort out the defence - and Southampton went on a 22 game undefeated run - climbed from 15th to 2nd - and there was barely a murmur on this thread for weeks while Bazunu was playing exceptionally well (with a better defence in front of him) and Bazunu was making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. Then the wheels came off the Southampton bandwagon - starting with the 5-3 win against Huddersfield - they lost 3 of the next 4 and then lose a game against Ipswich that they should have won. All of the old defensive issues came back to haunt the team.
And what happens - Southampton lose an important game, Bazunu has a poor game - and we now get a barrage of criticism surfacing again against Bazunu with links to stats claiming he is the worst goalie in the Championship.
So 3 goals conceded - Southampton lose the ball at midfield, Ipswich break, the Southampton defence is a shambles and Davis has an eternity to set himself up, pick his spot and rifle the ball into the top left corner without a Southampton player near him. Ipswich almost score again when they wallop the post after 2 Southampton defenders fail to get in a challenge. Ipswich's second goal demonstrated all the problems with Southampton's defence, nobody marking strikers, nobody making an effort to get back into position and when Broadhead gets the ball in the box he has all the time in the world to turn and strike it into the corner without any of the 3 defenders making an effort to get in a block. With five minutes to go Bree gets caught miles out of position and gets sent off for pulling down the striker - and for the last goal Ipswich exploit an acre of space where Bree should have been to get to the byline, cross the ball into the box to an unmarked player. He has four Southampton players near him (including Smallbone) has the time to miskick the ball, fall over, scramble back up and strike the ball without any Southampton defender making an effort to stop him. I think Bazunu was unsighted for the shot because there was a gaggle of players between him and the strike of the ball.
The three Ipswich goals were all the fault of poor defending - that is not to say that Bazunu shouldn't have done better. I felt that it would have been reasonable to expect him to save at least one of those three and I would pick the second one where, imo, he was a little slow at getting down to the ball (the first goal the shot was just too powerful and I do think he was unsighted for the last one) - saving the second goal would probably have won Southampton the game, and Bazunu should be held responsible for probably costing Southampton the win.
I will also say that I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Leicester forum - they haven't been watching the Southampton defence all season and only see Bazunu not being able to reach multiple shots.
I don't care what the stats say - they are of limited use. Bazunu has been very good in most of Southampton's games this season. There have been 2/3 games (including Monday) where you could possibly argue that he might be responsible for a bad result - and a couple of more where mistakes didn't cost the team a result. But overall he has largely been the victim of poor defending than poor play on his part.
Now - I would agree that Bazunu has not progressed this season as much as should be expected. But I do think you need to look at the context. He knows he has poor defenders in front of him - he knows they don't block down shots from strikers - he knows they leave gaps all over the place - and I think it is making him a bit hesitant. That is not good because it can become a habit and it would mean that he could end up constantly being a finger-tip away from making a great save for the rest of his career. I don't think that will happen - it is know that he works very hard, he listens to his coaching etc. That said - I don't rate the Southampton goalkeeping coach Dean Thornton - he was never a professional keeper (and of all the coaching positions I think that is imported for goalkeeping).
I would prefer that Southampton not get promoted this season - if they do they are likely to come straight back down and if Bazunu (or someone else because many on here think that Bazunu will be dumped) is in goals they will be massacred. Southampton's defence will be torn to shreds in the PL - just like it was last season - and I could easily see them shipping more than the 73 goals they let in last season - and that is irrespective of who is in goals for them. I think another season in the Championship would help Bazunu - as would a better defence. Ending up playing in the PL next season or getting benched and seeing his replacement letting in 2/3 goals a game - could destroy his confidence. It will also be interesting to see what happens Trafford at Burnley - because there is major similarities in both cases.
Last point - Bazunu and the Irish team. I will state again - Ireland are very lucky to have two goalkeepers of the calibre of Bazunu and Kelleher in the squad. stu makes a joke about me mentioning Tommy Farquharson - but he was an outstanding goalkeeper for a very good Cardiff team that challenged for the league title in the 1920s.
47 goalkeepers have played for the Irish team since independence
22 of them have played in the top division of English football (and a handful including Bonner in Scotland) - out of this 22 goalies 6 played less than 10 games over their careers - these are the remaining 16
Tommy Farquharson 243 games for Cardiff in the 1920s
Tommy Breen 65 games for Man U in the 1930s
Jimmy O'Neill 124 games for Everton in the 1950s
Pat Dunne 45 games for Man Utd in the mid 1960s
Paddy Roche 46 games for Man Utd in the 1970s
Ron Healy 30 games for Man City in the 1970s
And then onto the last 40 years
Keith Branaghan 68 games for Bolton in the 1990s
Rob Elliot 52 games for Newcastle over 8 years
Shay Given 451 games
Alan Kelly Jr 66 games for Sheff Utd over 3 years
Paddy Kenny 67 games for Sheff U and QPR over 2 years
Dean Kiely 191 games for Charlton, Portsmouth and WBA over 10 years
Seamus McDonagh - 100 games (approx) for Bolton and Everton over 3 years
Darren Randolph 34 games for West Ham and others over a 20 year career
Kieran Westwood 19 games for Sunderland over 2 years
Gavin Bazunu 32 games so far
Caoimhin Kelleher 14 games so far (and yes I know he has played in European and cup games)
Mark Travers 15 games so far
Now - the 1970s back were a completely different era - and while goalkeeping has changed significantly in the last 40 odd years - I would argue that apart from Shay Given (and possible Dean Kiely) none of the other goalkeepers would get into a PL team today - because there is too much competition from foreign players. Twice Travers has been promoted and then dumped by Bournemouth (and treated badly in my opinion) - Kelleher has the potential to get a move to another PL team and crank out a big number of appearances. Bazunu may never play in the PL again - but, given his age, could well develop into a top PL goalkeeper.
So my argument is that we currently have with Bazunu, Kelleher (and Travers) - three of the best goalkeepers ever to play in an Irish team - and we should look on that with a sense of confidence - rather than constant criticism. None of these three goalkeepers have ever let an Irish team down (nor have many of the others listed above - although I really did hate to see Paddy Roche pull on an Irish jersey - he was that bad) - and all of them have the potential to have to have long and very successful careers.
So I would argue that there should be far less kicking of the goalies we have (mostly of Bazunu with the constant digging out of stats that do not relate to reality - but people have been unfairly critical of Kelleher as well) - and instead focus on where the real problems are.
Fair dues to ya.
Thanks for sharing about Tommy Farquharson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Farquharson Had never heard of him despite his colourful life. From mixed religion family, Joined the IRA. Forced to move abroad (strange that he was allowed move to the "mainland" as it was then - did he do a deal ?). Carried a gun with him to games (because of the deal ?). Joined the Benedictines but had wife and 5 children.
As for Bazunu and Kelleher, think I'd prefer the former. The latter will be dropped as soon as Allison is fit again and let one through his legs last night. Not much in it though.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Fair play to you JRG for the time and effort put into your posts. Your support of Bazunu and knowledge of Irish international football is remarkable. I hope he delivers for you and proves doubters like myself wrong.
Anois teacht an Earraigh / Beidh an lá dúl chun shíneadh,
Is tar eis na féil Bríde / Ardóigh mé mo sheol.
Harsh, given it was deflected from very close range!
Jesus, his own player flicks it through his legs. If you think that's a goalkeeping error then you won't want to watch some of Gav's recent performances.
JRG is right about the general quality of goalkeeping in the premier league being really high. I haven't seen enough of Sheffield United's new keeper Grbic but leaving that aside, I don't think there's a genuinely bad starting keeper in the league. I'd have Kelleher as the 9th best keeper in the league right now, but really you could make an argument for anything from 5th to 19th without it being too controversial.
People are right that Gav is 3/4 years younger than Caoimhin and there's time to grow. At 19, Gav was miles ahead of Kelleher at the same age. He was very similar to Donnaruma at that age. Excellent with some obvious areas to work on. The issue with him is, he was a better keeper at 19 than he is now - he hasn't improved where the flaws were and new cracks have emerged.
On one hand, it's probably a confidence thing. Goalkeeping is such a mentally difficult job and people don't always overcome the self doubt. The other side is coaching, genuinely has he gotten the right coaching over the last 3 years to bring him onto the level that his talent reflected?
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