If Michael Collins had lived....

[Frank Blue]

You should have written to the BBC and asked them to refrain from completely making up history. The suggestion that de Valera fought a civil war to ensure his leadership suggests they had a limited grasp on historical accuracy...

Sorry. The only part i can fully remember from the BBC was the signing of the treaty and the reasons Collins did and not DeValera. Which led to the falling out.
If you can explain the reasons for the Civil War to me in greater depth, please do.

[Colm55]

Sorry. The only part i can fully remember from the BBC was the signing of the treaty and the reasons Collins did and not DeValera. Which led to the falling out.
If you can explain the reasons for the Civil War to me in greater depth, please do.

Imo the reasons are fairly straight forward, on one side was Dev who opposed the signing and ratification of the treaty and the other was Collins who obviously signed the treaty and stood by it for his part, and basically a civil war began as a result of the opposing sides. Both sides had their reasons for going to war, Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps

[Frank Blue]

Imo the reasons are fairly straight forward, on one side was Dev who opposed the signing and ratification of the treaty and the other was Collins who obviously signed the treaty and stood by it for his part, and basically a civil war began as a result of the opposing sides. Both sides had their reasons for going to war, Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps

The way this history program explained it, DeV knew it was as good as it could get, but because of the potential (and actual) fallout, could not bring himself to sign such a document, so sent Collins instead, making him look the bad guy. So maybe my statement earlier wasn't wrong afterall.

[Macy]

Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps

The anti treaty side refused to accept the will of the people and started the Civil War. People should forget about the North in this discussion - the main issue initially wasn't the 6 counties at all, but the Oath of Allegiance. Dev didn't give a fook about the North.

Dev should've gone to London. He didn't, as he knew what was the best they could expect, which is what Collins et al got. Regardless of your opinions on the treaty, I fail to see how anyone could admire a "leader" who so blatantly shirked his responsibilities when it really mattered.

[Colm55]

but the Oath of Allegiance. .

Somehow managed to leave this out, thanks for reminding me !!

[Malby]

The way this history program explained it, DeV knew it was as good as it could get, but because of the potential (and actual) fallout, could not bring himself to sign such a document, so sent Collins instead, making him look the bad guy. So maybe my statement earlier wasn't wrong afterall.

No it wasn't Frank.

[Macy]

Somehow managed to leave this out, thanks for reminding me !!

Yeah, but drop the "giving up the north" bit. That wasn't the reason why Dev and the anti treaty leaders were against the treaty. I'd have more sympathy for their point of view if the North was the issue.

[strangeirish]

The sad part, IMO, was that when I was going to school there was hardly a peep in our history books about Collins and his influence on the history of our Country. Has that changed now? Any inter/leaving cert students out there?

[stojkovic]

The sad part, IMO, was that when I was going to school there was hardly a peep in our history books about Collins and his influence on the history of our Country. Has that changed now? Any inter/leaving cert students out there?

Likewise with me.
Isnt it also amazing how 'celebrate' 1916 (a failure) and we don't celebrate the War of Independence (1921).
Is this where we get 'moral victories' from ?

We also forget the part that Irish Protestants and English Catholics played in us achieving independence - people like Wolfe Tone, Erskine Childers, Roger Casement etc. But thats for another day to educate to masses.

[strangeirish]

I wonder if the Irish Press was responsible for printing those history books back then

[superfrank]

I did the junior cert last year and there was a little bit about the War of Independence and the Civil War crammed into the same chapter.

However, there were numerous chapters on DeValera, the early government, Fianna Fail, etc. It's obvious people are never going to forget him and he'll always be thought of as an iconic figure but many people seem to think of Collins as a villain and that he took away from what DeValera "achieved". They've obviously never seen the film......

[strangeirish]

Like any film it can only go so deep. If you want good insight into that era, might I suggest Tim Pat Coogan's books on both Collins and Dev. Very indepth and a great lesson for that part of Irish history.

[superfrank]

I will look at them both, cheers. But it really p!sses me off the way people act as if DeValera was a saint and Collins was an anti-Christ.

[Anto McC]

In my opinion General Michael Collins is the greatest Irishman ever,but i also have a lot of respect for DeVelera but from mainly after the civil war.I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

[strangeirish]

I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

We would not have lasted a week. Guns and ammo were about gone and Collins was now out in the open, thanks to deV.

[Anto McC]

We would not have lasted a week. Guns and ammo were about gone and Collins was now out in the open, thanks to deV.

I glad somebody replyed,as that is the point i was making.In the proverbal sense "his hands were tied"

[Frank Blue]

In my opinion General Michael Collins is the greatest Irishman ever,but i also have a lot of respect for DeVelera but from mainly after the civil war.I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

Does this matter? Independence was coming sooner or later. The Liberals, going back to Gladstone had been supporting Irish Home Rule for years - only got defeated by the House of Lords, the Commons had passed it on a few occasions.
And look at how things panned out for Britain afterwards: the war with Germany and the collapse of the Empire. Writing was on the wall IMO.

[Macy]

But late at night against an inexperienced and weak negotiating team that was divided, it was a masterstroke.

Sure that's why the experienced politicians that had been talking a good fight in America should've gone to negogiate. Any criticism of the negogtiations reflects more badly on the anti treaty side who sent that team, against their wishes, than those that went.

btw Where does this myth that the IRA were against the treaty come from? The IRA was no different from the rest, in being split.

[Frank Blue]

It was on the Inter Cert history syllabus!

Do you believe everything that gets taught in history? There are always more than 1 side to a story, just that usually the percieved victor tends to write it, or gain the upper hand over time.

[Macy]

It was on the Inter Cert history syllabus!

Must be true then.