Out with the old, in with the new

[Kingdom]

I think there's a few things things. Randolph gave an interview after the Germany game, where he said that Roy gave him an absolute bollocking for trying to play out from the back and he learnt his lesson and didn't go short again or something to that effect. I haven't really paid attention to his positioning in open play - but I will. I do think that coaching set ups can have a huge influence on how aggressive a keeper is with his positioning, his distribution etc. etc. Kelleher, for all his current limitations, distributed aggressively at 21 level (well but certainly not flawlessly) and was extremely aggressive in pushing defenders up the pitch and charging to sweep up (he's also very quick which helps). I was worried about Randolph's performances at the end of the world cup campaign and during the nation's league and there were goals he should have done better on (off the top of my head v Denmark in WC and Wales in NL). Nonethless, his saves in the 1-0 wins against Gibraltar and Georgia literally won us the game. It'll be interesting to see how things go with the new coaching set up, but, as of July, there is no real credible alternative to him.

Yes, I can accept that. It's akin to Glenn Whelan saying he plays football according to trap's tactics and if he doesn't, then it means he won't be picked.
I naively believed (I lie - I don't believe) McCarthy when (possibly after Gibraltar) he was questioned about the style of football and how he doesn't ask players to hoof it.

I’d probably keep O’Shea with the 21s until their campaign is over. He’s not gonna replace any of Clarke, Duffy or Egan in the centre for the next short while - and he’s not gonna go ahead of Coleman or Doherty on the right. He’s been excellent for the 21s for the most part, along with Masterson, Collins and Scales. He could be key to them qualifying whereas, prior to Slovakia, he’d be little more than a 23rd member of the squad.

I'd agree with that entirely. I see him entirely as a centre half, not a right-back, in the future.

Not just England. Gareth Southgate. The owners of his club (Gold and Sullivan). His sponsors at that time (Nike). His new agent. John Terry. Combined with the sacking of Bilic in November/December. O’Neill’s failure to include him in the squads in March. The shambles that was the Irish camp during the Arter/Keane Arter/Walters saga and O’Neill’s unique management style. The poxy world cup where england scraped past Tunisia with a 92nd minute winner to come second ahead of them and Panama and behind Belgium before dispatching the relatively poor Colombia and Sweden en route to the semi and all the hysteria that followed. It took an army of ****-ups and bad luck to make it all happen.

So, you reckon that it's bad luck, rather than the player harbouring a (perhaps even sub-) conscious interest in playing for England?

I’m not arguing for Joe Hodge to be capped now, cause clearly he doesn’t have the track record at club level or beyond U19 to merit it yet, even though i think he’s an excellent talent who will hopefully be a key midfielder for us. I saw Grealish play in the FA Cup for Notts County at age 18 and it was clear that he was good enough to play for the national team immeadiately. I fully believe if he had been called up at that point, he would have remained an Irish player. I could easily be wrong but I think so. Equally, in terms of the value of a cap, in March 2018, Declan Rice was operating at a higher level (in performances) than all of Meyler, Hendrick and After who played against Moldova. The 83rd minute introduction of Seanie Maguire for his debut could just as easily have been Declan then. O’Neill believed in showing loyalty to his current squad and that replacing one of those lads when they hadn’t done anything wrong was somehow a mistake. Eunan O’Kane was an unused sub that night. And while I admire Eunan as a human on many levels, I don’t think a single person in Landsdowne would have argued that Declan was not more capable of ensuring a win for Ireland than Eunan was.

Joe Hodge looks a special talent.
My opinion is that Ireland are handicapped to a certain degree from making what could seem to be outrageous decisions, from a much larger pool of player, than the North and Wales are with a much smaller limited pool of players.

I still think there could be a chance that Smallbone is called up in September, depending on his performances during the remainder of the season and who is fit come September. If not, hopefully Kenny’s care and man management will be an improvement on previous management teams. And they watch his performances at u21 level carefully. Ogbone and Rose are both positive indicators in terms of both hands on approach and results. I think Kenny is actually trying to do something deeper, in terms of avenues and pathways for progression through the youth teams. Also, his previous judgement that Smallbone was behind Ronan, Mandriou, Taylor and Knight, maybe means that he feels as though you’ve got to prove it at 21 level before you can earn a senior cap.

Jack taylor is one of the best indicators of Stephen Kenny. I think you yourself at the time were slightly questionable on the selection to a squad while he was at Barnet, but he got a move to Peterborough very soon after and had played excellently with them all season.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Smallbone should be capped tactically, in an ideal world. I said that earlier in the thread. But is it that simple?

For all we know SK knows he's not yet willing to commit. What then? Play him in U21s and wait? Or just tell him he's oout until he says otherwise?

We call him up, he plays. Great.

Call him up, he declines. Problem.

On Twitter Kenny's Kids shows how many young English midfielders are ahead of him. That may be a factor in his thinking. I personally reckon he'll be impressed by the set up regardless of which squad he joins. Whereas 2 years ago he'd have had a choice of Noel King and Monkeano. That can only help. In any of these cases I think man management can help. I am still of the view (not supported by evidence, just a hunch) that Keane's tantrums affected Rice's decision.

And yet again, maybe the player's loyalty just isn't in question. It's just us getting all frantic again.

[youngirish]

Will Smallbone, shouldn't, absolutely shouldn't, be in our national senior squad now. The 21s are the best place for him now.

If the games were tomorrow I'd possibly agree but if Smallbone makes a number of further appearances for Southampton and forces himself into a starting berth over the next 2 months then I'd state he is more deserving of a place in the squad than the likes of Whelan, Hourihane, McClean and Brady. All of whom are on the downward trajectory in their careers and none of them have ever been world beaters anyway.

[Olé Olé]

Given that Kenny spoke previously about how we possibly should have identified Grealish and Rice were good enough and capped them, I'm led to believe that Kenny sees no flight risk in Smallbone and is quite content involving him at under 21 level. I would imagine that Arter, McCarthy and Molumby are all in Kenny's thinking for making his next squad. Leaving Smallbone with the under 21 side in the short term presents a risk (that capping him competitively at senior level would not present) but I have to imagine that he has assessed that risk and is opting not to fast track him until he has a body of under 21 work.

Rice and Grealish both appeared at under 21 level for us (5 and 6 times respectively) and they did very well. I would imagine that if Smallbone does well in his first couple of games at that level that he will graduate to senior level very quickly.

[paul_oshea]

If the games were tomorrow I'd possibly agree but if Smallbone makes a number of further appearances for Southampton and forces himself into a starting berth over the next 2 months then I'd state he is more deserving of a place in the squad than the likes of Whelan, Hourihane, McClean and Brady. All of whom are on the downward trajectory in their careers and none of them have ever been world beaters anyway.

We got about a " season" out of Brady. McClean popped up for the odd important goal but overall I think he limited or gameplay. Granted his pace and direct running would kind of suit Kenny's style.

[Olé Olé]

We got about a " season" out of Brady. McClean popped up for the odd important goal but overall I think he limited or gameplay. Granted his pace and direct running would kind of suit Kenny's style.

Michael Duffy could be in with a shout also.

[elatedscum]

I naively believed (I lie - I don't believe) McCarthy when (possibly after Gibraltar) he was questioned about the style of football and how he doesn't ask players to hoof it.

The one and only Johnny Giles often said that there's a difference between not discouraging and actively encouraging. Old habits die hard and after 4 years with O'Neill and 6 years with Trap, certain things are near ingrained. Kenny will demand as much football as he can eek out the side. While McCarthy may not have discouraged progressive football, it certainly wasn't a deal breaker. In fairness to Mick, with 8 qualifiers in a row and no friendlies or time to work with the side in advance, it wasn't an easy remit in terms of making drastic changes. Things could have been different if the FAI didn't extend O'Neill's contract before we got knocked out in the playoffs and if they have parted ways prior to the nation's league.

So, you reckon that it's bad luck, rather than the player harbouring a (perhaps even sub-) conscious interest in playing for England?

I think it's deeply complex. My grandmother's brother moved to England with his parents during the economic war as a young child and ended up commanding in the navy as a 14 year old during the second world war. Truly mad stuff. He married an English born woman (with 2 irish born parents) and all of his kids would consider themselves purely Irish - and as far as I'm aware, so would his grandkids. Even though he was employed by the navy for over 50 years. He's still alive today, in his 90s and has, up until very recently, still driven from London to Hollyhead and taken the Ferry across to Ireland to visit Dublin and his hometown in Tipp/Offally. There are people living in England like his children and grandchildren. There are others who exist in a sort of duality of nationhood, I remember Alex McGuinness' brother tweeting both stuff about the England team in the world cup and then also extremely republican stuff. I think Declan was deeply proud to play for Ireland and to be Irish and he fully embraced his Irish side (while now he fully embraces his English side) and I think, while an adult, 19 year olds can be pushed and pressurised easier than others. There was a campaign created by people with self-interests: his club, his agent, his sponsors, helped along by very intelligent work by Southgate who wanted a very promising young player and John Terry a proud English captain who perhaps sees himself as a future England manager. He's obviously an individual who was always capable of switching, given it happened, but there were also random circumstances which made it much more likely (England getting the easiest draw in their history and Declan living in England through the unique English hysteria).


I remember after the 0-0 draw against Norway, he went up and hugged an elderly woman from the London Ireland fan club (she was wearing a top from them) and spoke with her for about 5 minutes - she was an extension of him and his people. I remember him after the Azerbaijan game. In my mind, he would have definitely continued to play in that moment. Irish-English is a deeply complex and tribal mix but if you take it back, the likes of Tom Gaston (Irish French), Conor Noss (Irish German) Ryan Johansson (Irish Swede Luxembourgi). While they have all expressed a desire to play for Ireland and have talked about being Irish, they're also entitled to feel something else as well. We've got to position ourselves as best as possible. And if the DFB are chasing Conor Noss, we'd want to argue our case well. As we see with different players, it's not always the same thoughout their careers. For example, Marcus McGuane was an Irish U17 at 16, then at 17, he changed to England. I'm pretty sure where he's at now, he would gladly be playing for Ireland but England promised him certain things and he imagined he would progress in a certain way. If you asked Callum Robinson or Ciaran Clark at 16, they may have made similar choices to him. Grealish also probably switched at the worst time. He is still uncapped by England, he probably would have played in Euros and World Cups by now had he stayed with Ireland. And i think if someone had asked him privately and honestly at the start of last season when he was in the championship if he regretted it, i think he would say yes. Dan Crowley, possibly due to a misinterpretation of the rules, is also in a similar boat. He wants to play for Ireland and he can't. The choices he made at 15 caused that. The converse is also true. Conor Noss at 19 might dream of playing for Ireland and if we think he's good enough and we can plot a path for him, which he believes in and buys into, then why not? But if he starts playing like Kai Havertz next season and the german media begins to put pressure on him - you could easily see him questioning his future.


Being pre-emptive, is basically what Tunisia did with Ayman Ben Muhammad when he was at Bohs. I know the lad and he was absolutely delighted at the time to accept the call up and to play international football and deeply proud to represent the country of his family, just ecstatic. Nonetheless, he dreamt of playing for ireland and there was a moment in 2018, when the question of 'what if' occurred... (Playing both with and against him when he was around 18-20, there was really no signs he would become a player who would play against Messi and Salah. None at all. Kaleem Simon who was probably very similarly rated at that age and played together with him at UCD, Longford and Bohs is battling away at Wexford FC along with Azeez Yusuff, who was probably the highest rated of the three before all of his injuries.

Jack taylor is one of the best indicators of Stephen Kenny. I think you yourself at the time were slightly questionable on the selection to a squad while he was at Barnet, but he got a move to Peterborough very soon after and had played excellently with them all season.

Definitely. It was an unpopular selection. I was skeptical. Taylor has played well during every U21 appearance and his stock has risen hugely. I think with Toulon they made an effort to see players who they hadn’t before (Taylor, Wright, Power, Mallon) and with Taylor, it paid off. Great example of good scouting and a manager who is strong enough in his own beliefs to pick players who wouldn’t be in anyone else’s squads prior to their introduction (not talking about Staunton and Alan O’Brien)

Given that Kenny spoke previously about how we possibly should have identified Grealish and Rice were good enough and capped them, I'm led to believe that Kenny sees no flight risk in Smallbone and is quite content involving him at under 21 level. I would imagine that Arter, McCarthy and Molumby are all in Kenny's thinking for making his next squad. Leaving Smallbone with the under 21 side in the short term presents a risk (that capping him competitively at senior level would not present) but I have to imagine that he has assessed that risk and is opting not to fast track him until he has a body of under 21 work.


Rice and Grealish both appeared at under 21 level for us (5 and 6 times respectively) and they did very well. I would imagine that if Smallbone does well in his first couple of games at that level that he will graduate to senior level very quickly.

Good shout on this (and Michael Duffy). Of course, until someone is locked, there’s always a flight risk, just because people are people but he’s obviously had conversations with McCarthy and Arter and wants to bring them back into the fold. He’s seen Molumby’s quality. I suspect Cullen is the type of player he was talking about when identifying players who could contribute sooner. He mentioned Browne. Maybe Hourihane will be sacrificed but his dead balls are so good that I can’t see it. I assume Whelan will be left behind for McCarthy and Cullen, as will Judge. Then there’s Hendrick. And Jack, who I suspect, he’s currently not thinking about for September, maybe because LOI have yet to start but if he is hands down the best player in the league again, that could change…


Right, I’m off to work on brevity….

[Yard of Pace]

Definitely. It was an unpopular selection. I was skeptical. Taylor has played well during every U21 appearance and his stock has risen hugely. I think with Toulon they made an effort to see players who they hadn’t before (Taylor, Wright, Power, Mallon) and with Taylor, it paid off. Great example of good scouting and a manager who is strong enough in his own beliefs to pick players who wouldn’t be in anyone else’s squads prior to their introduction (not talking about Staunton and Alan O’Brien)

I'm currently reading Jonathon Wilson's Clough bigraphy (it's really excellent). And this is exactly how he achieved success with Taylor at Derby.....

(Also, he was a big believer in youth too, John McGovern, Roy MacFarland etc and, finally, it's sad Andy Reid isn't around seeing how Clough took to fellow, podgy, gifted winger John Robertson)

[Olé Olé]

I do agree with the idea that we were very unlucky with Rice. He should have been capped but we were unlucky he slipped from our clutches. This could be very simplistic but it appeared as though his father was keen for him to realise his Irish dream, whilst most other stakeholders dragged him in the other direction.

On the other hand, I have spoken to a pal from the Irish Community in Birmingham who reckons that the Grealish family were always likely to have their heads turned by the fame and fortune (incidentally, the same guy is convinced that the Crowley's were always edging towards Ireland, regardless of Dan's career trajectory). Grealish also took on Jonathan Barnett as his agent. There's a story that Barnett tried getting Gareth Bale (another client) to play with England due to having an English granny but Bale told him where to go.

I have probably gone into too much past detail that we have all tried to forget about. But I am just trying to demonstrate the point that Rice and Grealish identified as Irish and English but due to particular circumstances, they were dragged towards England from Ireland.

Rice and Grealish have conditioned us to expect this outcome. However, as mentioned above, such circumstances haven't presented themselves to Wales. And they have had terrific outcomes on the lads set out above. I think many of the lads that have plumped for Wales have been born to a Welsh parent or two Welsh grandparents. Like Rice and Grealish, unlike James Maddison (one grandparent). David Brooks mother is Welsh and he jumped from England to Wales. I would argue that if he were eligible for England today then he would earn more England caps than Grealish in the future.

One point on the Welsh, however, is that they are quicker to fast-track Welsh -born talent than we are our Irish-born. Dylan Levitt has been spoken about by Giggs as someone he wanted to call up before the pandemic took over. He's 19, Welsh-born and one Europea League appearance for Man United. If he was English -born then the assumption would be that it is a strategic cap.

It is great that Smallbone's mam is Irish. I think that makes a big difference. Similar point for Daniel Rose at Schalke. Having a parent with an Irish accent is a help. See also Anselmo Garcia McNulty and Conor Boss. And, ugh, Ryan Johansson and his preference.