Out with the old, in with the new

[nigel-harps1954]

3-5-2 suits us for many reasons really. Doherty, Egan, Clarke and Stephens have all excelled in the formation at Premier League level. Obviously would allow also potentially allow us play Coleman and Doherty together as well. Would really let us tap into the depth we have at centre back as well. McGoldrick plays better in a 2 as well and wouldn't be so isolated, while also having the ability to drop into midfield to recieve the ball which he's quite good at.

It makes too much sense not to at least try it.

In one breath you suggest strength in depth at centre half, in the next you suggest both Coleman and Doherty fit into the system. Which strongly performing centre half do you drop to fit Coleman into your system?

Also, why would McGoldrick be isolated in a 3 man attack?

[Olé Olé]

On the McGoldrick question, I felt that under Mick when we went with a 4-3-3 it turned into a 4-5-1 quite quickly. We had James McClean playing on the left and reverting to type as a winger. Robbie Brady ended up on the touchline too when he played wide forward. Our men always appeared to be too far away from McGoldrick.

I don't think we need to go 3-5-2. And I don't think we will. Am I correct in saying that 3 teams play that formation in the PL- Wolves Sheffield United and Brighton? It just so happens that Doherty and Stevens are two of the 6 first choice options at the three clubs.

[Eirambler]

Well Egan and Clarke both generally play left of the three centre backs so only playing one of them alongside Duffy and Coleman probably makes sense. However if you wanted three out and out centre backs you could move one of them across to the right of the three, probably Egan. That's a position that would also suit Dara O'Shea. So there is depth there.

Doherty and Stevens would both continue in their club positions where they have excelled this year. Having three centre backs inside them seems to suit both as they do both have some defensive frailties. I don't think Ryan Manning could ever be an international quality left back but the left wing back position seems to suit him a lot better. So again, depth in both wing back positions.

Central midfield is still a three so no change there either way really. Up front the formation probably doesn't suit the likes of Connolly who I see as being better on the left of a three man forward line so that's potentially a drawback. Otherwise I couldn't see Long having an issue playing it and McGoldrick already plays the system at club level.

I think Kenny will be sticking with 4-3-3 to start with but, while it's harder to chop and change at international level than with a club team, I still think it would be worth looking at 3-5-2 at some stage as it might be a useful alternative for us.

[Olé Olé]

Is Egan not almost always at the centre of the three centre backs?

[nigel-harps1954]

Well Egan and Clarke both generally play left of the three centre backs so only playing one of them alongside Duffy and Coleman probably makes sense. However if you wanted three out and out centre backs you could move one of them across to the right of the three, probably Egan. That's a position that would also suit Dara O'Shea. So there is depth there.

Doherty and Stevens would both continue in their club positions where they have excelled this year. Having three centre backs inside them seems to suit both as they do both have some defensive frailties. I don't think Ryan Manning could ever be an international quality left back but the left wing back position seems to suit him a lot better. So again, depth in both wing back positions.

Central midfield is still a three so no change there either way really. Up front the formation probably doesn't suit the likes of Connolly who I see as being better on the left of a three man forward line so that's potentially a drawback. Otherwise I couldn't see Long having an issue playing it and McGoldrick already plays the system at club level.

I think Kenny will be sticking with 4-3-3 to start with but, while it's harder to chop and change at international level than with a club team, I still think it would be worth looking at 3-5-2 at some stage as it might be a useful alternative for us.

Absolutely, remains a useful alternative. But I think we focus far too much on the defensive side of our squad rather than the attacking. The 4-3-3 system has huge advantages for what's coming through in Irish football.

Imagine a forward line of Connolly - Long - Obafemi, or alternatively Connolly - Idah - McGoldrick.

You have midfield options in abundance. Molumby - McCarthy - Hendrick, Hourihane - Byrne - Browne, Smallbone - Cullen - Arter.

Instead of focusing on what strong 3 man centre halves we have, make them all fight for two places. Ensure there's a fight between Coleman and Doherty for right back, Stevens/Brady/Manning for left back.

Currently, the only thing that worries me is our goalkeeping situation as Randolph has been frozen out of the West Ham team since joining. Travers isn't getting game time, Westwood seems to have dropped off the face of the planet, O'Hara has an uncertain future, and the rest of the available goalkeepers are still effectively youth team players.

[tetsujin1979]

Westwood was dropped by the manager earlier in the season, and he's clarified the situation on Twitter

[ColourfulPeanut]

In one breath you suggest strength in depth at centre half, in the next you suggest both Coleman and Doherty fit into the system. Which strongly performing centre half do you drop to fit Coleman into your system?

Also, why would McGoldrick be isolated in a 3 man attack?

Coleman could be included in the central 3 as an option or as a back-up to Doherty, which would increase our depth.

Our 4-3-3 isn't really a 4-3-3 when we played under Mick as already stated, McGoldrick was very isolated in the games he played for us. Mainly the system would allow us to get the most out of our strengths and our best player in Doherty.

[elatedscum]

Is Egan not almost always at the centre of the three centre backs?

Yep

3-5-2 in my mind is the hardest system to implement. It requires time and repetition. Particularly in international football, you just don’t get the time to really drill the system into players and there’s probably more fluctuations from game to game with players injured, losing form etc than there would be at club level.

Defensively: It requires good decision making and mobility from your left and right centre halves. They’ll get pulled into the gaps that the fullback normally covers and it’s easy to concede and get torn apart and overstretched if you’re making the wrong decisions. Clark definitely has the mobility and speed to play as one of the wide centre halves, Duffy you’d imagine would have to play in the centre as he’s the least able to turn quickly and the centre would probably suit as he’s the best organiser. Egan probably also suits the centre best but probably would be able to slide across. You’d really have to question how good Coleman would be playing right of centre, would he give you more than Egan or Duffy or Clarke?

At worst, with a badly prepared side against an intelligent and fluid opposition, it’s like against Mexico in that Friendly in 2017. (Totally overwhelmed, trying to put out fires everywhere)

It requires legs from the wing backs, there is a huge owness (spelling?) on them to get up and down the pitch all game, to both be a support for the midfielders, attackers and cover for the defenders.

Less of a concern for us, as we know that both Stevens and Doherty are comfortable there...

If things don’t go well or the side is lacking confidence, that 3-5-2 quickly becomes 5-3-2. See late late era O’Neill - 0-0 v Denmark, home and away, 0-1 v Wales. And it becomes the most defensive of systems. Centre halves demanding cover from the wing backs, camped in our own half etc etc.

You obviously take wingers out of selection. 5 years ago, you’d worry about McClean being removed from the equation - but we probably have less true quality natural wingers at the moment than in any time recently. One of the biggest mistakes managers make in this system is shoehorning wingers into the centre to facilitate their inclusion. See that same game against Mexico: Christie and McClean as wing backs, Hourihane, Horgan and O’Dowda in the centre!

When 4-4–2 was in vogue, the one advantage that 3-5-2 gave was the extra man in midfield which made it much more easy to control the midfield. But 4-3-3 kinda negates that. I guess maybe going man for man up top, or having a free roaming player like McGoldrick sometimes does for Sheffield.

Given the overall lack of goals that we score, I’m not really sure removing one attacking player is ideal. I’d probably be of the belief that, in the 70% of games where both players are available, you’re better either one or the other. And if Stevens is injured or suspended, you either play Brady or Coleman or Doherty on the left.

[elatedscum]

Currently, the only thing that worries me is our goalkeeping situation as Randolph has been frozen out of the West Ham team since joining. Travers isn't getting game time, Westwood seems to have dropped off the face of the planet, O'Hara has an uncertain future, and the rest of the available goalkeepers are still effectively youth team players.

You would worry. The only positive is that Randolph has played well in the past with reduced game time. Maybe Westwood or Elliott could establish themselves at a good championship club next season. Don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Don’t think any of Travers, O’Hara, Kelleher or Talbot have eradicated the mistakes of youth from their game. If it was me, from what I’ve seen, I’d be looking at Sean McDermott and Max O’Leary as backups to Randolph. I haven’t seen a huge amount of their games but they were both very impressive in the games that I’ve seen.

[nigel-harps1954]

Coleman could be included in the central 3 as an option or as a back-up to Doherty, which would increase our depth.

Our 4-3-3 isn't really a 4-3-3 when we played under Mick as already stated, McGoldrick was very isolated in the games he played for us. Mainly the system would allow us to get the most out of our strengths and our best player in Doherty.

Why would you refer to a Mick McCarthy setup of 4-3-3 when talking about a different manager with an entirely different setup, different mainframe, and a more positive outlook in terms of how to set up his squad?

McCarthy, O'Neill, and Trap all approached games with Ireland as "we don't have the players". Kenny will go into games as he has done with Dundalk in Europe, and the under-21s, with the positive opinion of "why can't we go at them?"

[Kingdom]

In one breath you suggest strength in depth at centre half, in the next you suggest both Coleman and Doherty fit into the system. Which strongly performing centre half do you drop to fit Coleman into your system?

I think we've

Also, why would McGoldrick be isolated in a 3 man attack?

A few people here have referred to Ireland managers recently picking players only to sabotage that player with where they have been selected. McGoldrick is an example of this. He is a lovely football, very clever, and is clearly the one player tasked with making things happen under the last manager. the problem was selecting him as a 9. He's best placed to dropping back to receive the ball and running at the space between midfield and defence. Selecting as the totem, automatically put us on the back foot. It's one of the most frustating selection policies of recent times. It was akin to tieing an arm behind a boxers back.

I felt that under Mick when we went with a 4-3-3 it turned into a 4-5-1 quite quickly.

When have we ever played a true 4-3-3? We've never done it. We always revert to a 4-5-1. Agree completely with you.

I don't think we need to go 3-5-2. And I don't think we will. Am I correct in saying that 3 teams play that formation in the PL- Wolves Sheffield United and Brighton? It just so happens that Doherty and Stevens are two of the 6 first choice options at the three clubs.[/QUOTE]

Yep

3-5-2 in my mind is the hardest system to implement. It requires time and repetition. Particularly in international football, you just don’t get the time to really drill the system into players and there’s probably more fluctuations from game to game with players injured, losing form etc than there would be at club level.

Defensively: It requires good decision making and mobility from your left and right centre halves. They’ll get pulled into the gaps that the fullback normally covers and it’s easy to concede and get torn apart and overstretched if you’re making the wrong decisions. Clark definitely has the mobility and speed to play as one of the wide centre halves, Duffy you’d imagine would have to play in the centre as he’s the least able to turn quickly and the centre would probably suit as he’s the best organiser. Egan probably also suits the centre best but probably would be able to slide across. You’d really have to question how good Coleman would be playing right of centre, would he give you more than Egan or Duffy or Clarke?

At worst, with a badly prepared side against an intelligent and fluid opposition, it’s like against Mexico in that Friendly in 2017. (Totally overwhelmed, trying to put out fires everywhere)

It requires legs from the wing backs, there is a huge owness (spelling?) on them to get up and down the pitch all game, to both be a support for the midfielders, attackers and cover for the defenders.

Less of a concern for us, as we know that both Stevens and Doherty are comfortable there...

If things don’t go well or the side is lacking confidence, that 3-5-2 quickly becomes 5-3-2. See late late era O’Neill - 0-0 v Denmark, home and away, 0-1 v Wales. And it becomes the most defensive of systems. Centre halves demanding cover from the wing backs, camped in our own half etc etc.

You obviously take wingers out of selection. 5 years ago, you’d worry about McClean being removed from the equation - but we probably have less true quality natural wingers at the moment than in any time recently. One of the biggest mistakes managers make in this system is shoehorning wingers into the centre to facilitate their inclusion. See that same game against Mexico: Christie and McClean as wing backs, Hourihane, Horgan and O’Dowda in the centre!

When 4-4–2 was in vogue, the one advantage that 3-5-2 gave was the extra man in midfield which made it much more easy to control the midfield. But 4-3-3 kinda negates that. I guess maybe going man for man up top, or having a free roaming player like McGoldrick sometimes does for Sheffield.

Given the overall lack of goals that we score, I’m not really sure removing one attacking player is ideal. I’d probably be of the belief that, in the 70% of games where both players are available, you’re better either one or the other. And if Stevens is injured or suspended, you either play Brady or Coleman or Doherty on the left.

Super post. I would debate some of it, but it's a class post.

You would worry. The only positive is that Randolph has played well in the past with reduced game time. Maybe Westwood or Elliott could establish themselves at a good championship club next season. Don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Don’t think any of Travers, O’Hara, Kelleher or Talbot have eradicated the mistakes of youth from their game. If it was me, from what I’ve seen, I’d be looking at Sean McDermott and Max O’Leary as backups to Randolph. I haven’t seen a huge amount of their games but they were both very impressive in the games that I’ve seen.

I've furrowed a lone plough on this. We've a blind spot with goalkeepers, and have had for a long while in my opinion. We see the spectacular saves, but the nuts and bolts....
I'll just say this. I think Darren Randolph is the reason for a lot of our woes in the last couple of years. I've no axe to grind, I don't dislike him, but for me his positioning is poor, he's weak in the box, and we've conceded some very poor goals. That aside, the biggest gripe I have, is that he forces us 10-15 yds further back the pitch, than up the pitch, and it kills us. It drags the midfield further back to keep the link with defence, and then a knock-on effect on the teams overall position. And when you're a team that constantly gives the ball to the opposition, that 15 yd retreat is a killer. I'm not making this up, I'm not imagining it, look at games over the last 5 years. It's not about having our keeper becoming Ederson or spraying balls around the pitch, but it's about being that bit more aggressive in the set-up. This is something that Kenny has implemented with the 21s, and I'm certain it will continue.

McCarthy, O'Neill, and Trap all approached games with Ireland as "we don't have the players". Kenny will go into games as he has done with Dundalk in Europe, and the under-21s, with the positive opinion of "why can't we go at them?"

Agree totally nidge. Kenny has spoken of this a lot. but ironically I think it's this mentality, aligned with what he's mentioned about some of our players already, that leads me to think he could

As I (think I) said earlier, he's going to look to get the best from Doherty and Stevens. They both play in wide-roles, although Doherty is a touch more advanced than Stevens. Assuming he plays to this, he's either going to go with a 3-5-2, or possibly a 3-4-3.
My logic for the 3 defenders - and I will concede happily that he's never played that style before (maybe a bit with Bohs in the EUropean season) - is that he clearly wants us on the ball and to be more aggressive in taking the game to the opposition. Any time I've seen us attempt a 3 at the back, it hasn't been accompanied by a game-plan to keep the football. We have some good footballing options at the back, and one who is glaringly unsuitable to it. Stevens, Egan and Coleman are all adept at taking the ball out from the back.
Seamus simply isn't able to get up and down the pitch to the extent that Stephen Kenny is going to want from his full-backs. The fact that he nailed his colours to the mast on day one and called him captain suggests to me he's going to be a starter, and that's fine by me.

The overriding concern with this current Irish team is goals. Kenny has to resolve keeping solidity at the back, with fashioning chances and getting us playing further up the pitch together as a team. We simply don't score enough goals as a team, nor do we have a player at any level who is banging them in. Adam Idah is a goalscorer. Matt Doherty is someone who gets into positions to score goals, and is a throwback to players. I think it's fair to think how he's going to set up to get the most from players who can get goals from the team.

I probably have derailed this thread a bit considering it was about the influx of young players.

[backstothewall]

There's an awful lot of debate here about the merits of 3-5-2 vs 4-3-3. It's all very interesting, but there is a best of both worlds option that should be considered. Especialy with the players we have.

3-4-3


------------------ Randolph -----------------
----- Coleman ---- Duffy ----- Egan -------
Doherty - Molumby - Hourihane - Stevens
---- Obafemi - McGoldrick - Connolly -----

We have an absolute abundance of riches with this system. We can name an entire 2nd XI where the reserves are arguably more experienced that the first XI

--------------- Travers --------------
---- Long --- Lenihan --- Clark ----
Christie - Hendrick - Cullen - Brady
-- O'Dowda - Hogan - Robinson ---

And we can still have the likes of Idah, Cullen, Browne, Smallbone, Manning, McClean and Byrne to call on even if none of the less obvious youth prospects make it.

When international football comes back, nobody will have either familiarity among their squad or an established group of players to fall back on. I think we should throw caution to the wind and pick a squad with only a handfull of players who need to shave every day. Everyone is going to be a year older, and nobody like facing youngsters at the best of times, never mind after a year long layoff when tactiucal systems have become foggy memories and old joints have had time to calcify.

I say let the kids have at it.

[Eirambler]

I think one of two things would happen with that 3-4-3 formation. Either 1) we'd play all out 3-4-3 and be overrun in midfield with too many wide players or 2) McGoldrick would drop back and play as a 10 - then it's effectively a 3-5-2 again.

[paul_oshea]

Kenny's first challenge is to put out to pasture some of those great servants of Irish football over the years who unfortunately are past their best or just never had a sufficient level of ability to be consistent performers at International level.

Luckily we have a glut of potential talent coming through to replace them. The question I wish to pose is which players are ready to make the step up to be first team regulars in time for the play-offs in October and which if we were to qualify could become regulars by the time the finals were to begin next year.

Let's review the contenders in order of how close each is to being ready to make the step up to being a regular for the senior team.

Jayson Molumby - Midfielder - 20 - Millwall (On loan from Brighton)
Coming to then end of his breakthrough season on loan to Millwall where he has been one of their standout performers. He is perhaps the only player in this list that is already ready to be a first team Irish International. A box to box midfielder with bundles of energy, strong in the tackle and an eye for a pass he must be considered a capable replacement for the aging Glenn Whelan.

Will Smallbone - Midfielder - 20 - Southampton
Has now become a regular in a very decent Southampton midfield, occasionally starting but also making appearances from the bench. One of the nominees along with Idah and Connolly for U23 player of the year last season he has looked the most comfortable of the three when playing in the Premiership. A more creative midfielder than Molumby he may offer the flair our midfield has so often lacked in recent years. If he continues to progress with Southampton he should be given a chance in the next set of friendlies in place of Hourihane who is often found wanting at the top level of football.

Aaron Connolly - Forward - 20 - Brighton
Connolly has often struggled to find chances and goals to come by in a poor Brighton team despite an impressive number of appearances. How much of that is his fault and how much of it is due to the inability of his midfielders to impose themselves on the game is debatable but bar the occasional flash of class he has often failed to justify his place in the team. Personally I think he looks very raw and currently lacks the strength and awareness of what’s going on around him to be successful in the Premiership but with Shane Long and Callum Robinson also not pulling up any trees for their respective clubs he should be at least be considered as an option come October.

Michael Obafemi - Striker - 19 - Southampton
Another striker who has notched up a considerable amount of appearances for his club this season, he has scored 3 goals across all competitions for Southampton. Quick and strong he at least has the basic attributes to succeed at the top but he has been criticized by his own manager for often going missing in games and he suffers from the same issues as Connolly regarding his lack of awareness. As with Connolly these limitations can be rectified as he gets more experience but even so with a lack of decent alternatives he should at least be considered an option for the next set of friendlies.

Adam Idah - Striker - 19 - Southampton
Of the forwards mentioned here Idah has improved the most throughout the season. If he gets more minutes for an almost relegated Norwich he could easily overtake both Obafemi and Connolly as a viable alternative to our current forward options for the play off games. He has the physicality that Connolly lacks and a higher workrate than Obafemi. He also looks to have a more clinical edge than both.

Jason Knight - Midfielder - 19 - Derby
Has been a regular performer all season for a very decent Derby team pushing for a play-off place in the Championship. He lacks consistency but is highly thought of by the Derby fans and has bagged 3 goals this term. Can play anywhere across the midfield and started on the left in Derby’s last match so perhaps he could soon be considered as a replacement for the very limited McClean.

Troy Parrott - Striker - 18 - Spurs
A disappointing season for Parrott after his fine pre-season form suggested he may be ready for some first team appearances. Unfortunately Mourinho has not given him the chances he needs and perhaps a loan move would be best for him for next season. On paper he looks the most promising of all our young strikers and if he hits the ground running early next season either at Spurs or on loan at a Championship club then he should be considered for the Irish team.

I agree with this post.

[paul_oshea]

Who are the "we"?

You and all the others misinterpreting players statements down through the years, with an unfounded belief of some foresight others didn't have.

[paul_oshea]

Of the back 3 mentioned mostly on here, I am a little concerned about us getting caught for pace, bar coleman, who is 32 we dont have any real pace there. We do look setup to counter, but it reminds me of the way Kenny setup out in Cyprus with Dundalk that time and conceded 3 soft goals that shouldn't have been conceded.

I can't see any changes before the nations league in terms of new blood coming into the first 11. Perhaps if Mccarthy doesnt make it, midfield being forced Molumby could be thrown in, but all the murmurings from Kenny suggest that he is still looking at old hat. Arter seems to be doing ok at the moment, and if fulham were to go up hes back playing premiership football.

As YI said a lot of players mentioned there but none really ready, as most have now learnt this year with all the Parrot call ups being unwarranted really, and Connolly not having found his level, yet anyways.

One thing i have been thinking about is do many scouts go around the u21 championships looking at players? or is it seen as the last chance saloon?

[paul_oshea]

The 3-5-2 does appear to have a sell by date too, even for teams who have had success with it initially. I remember Roy Evans using it to good effect at Liverpool for a while, with McAteer one of the wing backs, but it was gradually figured out and exposed by opposing sides. Similar with Martin O'Neill at Celtic, he eventually changed to four at the back too despite winning a lot of trophies with 3-5-2.

Everything has its sell by date, every tactic or system has, and then gets reinvented or repurposed in another X number of years.

[nigel-harps1954]

Stephen Kenny has effectively said today in a press briefing that Will Smallbone will continue with the under-21s for now and not the senior squad.


Also this:

[Eirambler]

I've got to say I don't agree with the Smallbone position. I know he'd be skipping the queue a bit to get capped but the bottom line is he's a dual national, not Irish born and playing in the Premier League so there is a risk of losing him.

Rice didn't appear to be a flight risk until he was, and then he left. Obafemi was correctly fast tracked into the Nations League squad last time to nullify the risk. We need to defend our position in these cases and the way to do that is to cap Smallbone in the autumn.

[nigel-harps1954]

I've got to say I don't agree with the Smallbone position. I know he'd be skipping the queue a bit to get capped but the bottom line is he's a dual national, not Irish born and playing in the Premier League so there is a risk of losing him.

Rice didn't appear to be a flight risk until he was, and then he left. Obafemi was correctly fast tracked into the Nations League squad last time to nullify the risk. We need to defend our position in these cases and the way to do that is to cap Smallbone in the autumn.

Kenny laid out his stall from the very first press conference in saying "I only want players who want to play for Ireland."

If Smallbone has a question of playing for England in his head, he won't be wanted. It'll be that simple. It's firmly putting the ball in his court and is the right decision. Fast-tracking a player into the squad and jumping over others in the process is not fair to already committed players. Smallbone has played a total of 5 Premier League games, two of them as a sub for a couple of minutes. His time will come.