Out with the old, in with the new

[paul_oshea]

I've got to say I don't agree with the Smallbone position. I know he'd be skipping the queue a bit to get capped but the bottom line is he's a dual national, not Irish born and playing in the Premier League so there is a risk of losing him.

Rice didn't appear to be a flight risk until he was, and then he left. Obafemi was correctly fast tracked into the Nations League squad last time to nullify the risk. We need to defend our position in these cases and the way to do that is to cap Smallbone in the autumn.

I agree with this.

I might eat my words, thinking of carsley when i say this, but when a player comes on with 5 mins or so to go in a position like smallbones, even in a competitive game hes hardly going to cause any great problem and concede us a goal. That whole argument is null and void. That said if we are losing a game and need a goal then I wouldnt suggest bringing him on, unless we are losing by a lot.

THe irony in Nigels "His time will come." Its like the Old Brigade on "hes ours to lose". That expression was wholly wrong. The expression should have read "He's Englands. Until he's Irelands".

[nigel-harps1954]

I agree with this.

I might eat my words, thinking of carsley when i say this, but when a player comes on with 5 mins or so to go in a position like smallbones, even in a competitive game hes hardly going to cause any great problem and concede us a goal. That whole argument is null and void. That said if we are losing a game and need a goal then I wouldnt suggest bringing him on, unless we are losing by a lot.

THe irony in Nigels "His time will come." Its like the Old Brigade on "hes ours to lose". That expression was wholly wrong. The expression should have read "He's Englands. Until he's Irelands".

Why would he be Englands? He's already in the Irish setup. To the best of my knowledge, he's never been in any England squad at any level.

[DeLorean]

Everything has its sell by date, every tactic or system has, and then gets reinvented or repurposed in another X number of years.

I wasn't talking about the evolution of football tactics/formations generally. I mean teams tend to implement the 3-5-2 for a period and then move away from it, even with the same players.

[Eirambler]

Why would he be Englands? He's already in the Irish setup. To the best of my knowledge, he's never been in any England squad at any level.

Neither had Rice to my knowledge. He had been with us since under 16, played 20+ times for us at various levels and then left because we hadn't competitively capped him.

Similar to Rice, Smallbone isn't ours until he's ours. We could eliminate all doubt this Autumn.

[Kingdom]

Neither had Rice to my knowledge. He had been with us since under 16, played 20+ times for us at various levels and then left because he wanted to.

Similar to Rice, Smallbone isn't ours until he's ours. We could eliminate all doubt this Autumn if he wants to.

I've changed your statement. If he wants to play for Ireland, he'll play for Ireland when we pick him at 21s and at seniors. If he doesn't want to play for us, he won't.
I'm done with these situations now. We - all of us, through badgering Oneill - put Obafemi in a position where he had to release a statement saying unequivocally that he would declare for us before we capped him against Denmark 2 years ago.

Fully in faith with Kenny on this. Will Smallbone is a fantastic player, and will be of huge use to the 21s this year especially if Molumby, Ronan and Connolly are with the Seniors.

If he plays with the 21s for this year, he'll be playing with the seniors in a year. If he doesn't play with the 21s he would never have played with us.

[Kingdom]

I think one of two things would happen with that 3-4-3 formation. Either 1) we'd play all out 3-4-3 and be overrun in midfield with too many wide players or 2) McGoldrick would drop back and play as a 10 - then it's effectively a 3-5-2 again.

We really need to stop this notion that playing didsy as the central/advanced striker of a 3 is helpful to the team. It's not, it's unhelpful.

[Charlie Darwin]

I've got to say I don't agree with the Smallbone position. I know he'd be skipping the queue a bit to get capped but the bottom line is he's a dual national, not Irish born and playing in the Premier League so there is a risk of losing him.

Rice didn't appear to be a flight risk until he was, and then he left. Obafemi was correctly fast tracked into the Nations League squad last time to nullify the risk. We need to defend our position in these cases and the way to do that is to cap Smallbone in the autumn.

Obafemi wasn't fast-tracked though, was he? O'Neill started spreading rumours about him for some weird reason and he had to point out that he's committed.

[Eirambler]

I've changed your statement. If he wants to play for Ireland, he'll play for Ireland when we pick him at 21s and at seniors. If he doesn't want to play for us, he won't.

It's nowhere near as straight forward as that, and hopefully most people see that.

Firstly, if we call up Smallbone (or anyone else) to the Nations League squad in the autumn and that player says no, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. In that case it's clear the player is not fully committed to us and we can move on. It also frees up a space in the Under 21 squad for a player who is committed to playing for us, which is more important than success at under 21 level.

Secondly, the "If he wants to play for Ireland, he'll play for Ireland whenever we pick him, if he doesn't want to play for us, he won't" approach shows that some people have learned nothing from the Declan Rice saga. Rice was happy to play for us until he was put under heavy pressure to play for England. But if we had capped him competitively earlier England would have never come sniffing after him and he would have continued happily playing for Ireland.

Therefore there is a distinct advantage in fast tracking dual national players that are progressing quickly at club level. It's beneficial to both country and player - the country confirms the nationality of the player while the player no longer has to deal with the pressure and sensitivity of the situation, the decision is made and they can move on.

Instead, some would rather learn nothing from past experience and sleep walk us into losing more players that would have been happy to play for us if we had handled their situation better.

[DeLorean]

That's a fair post bar maybe the last bit. I think it's perfectly reasonable for 'some' to be of the opinion that a player shouldn't be fast tracked just to tie them. It really is very unfair on those non-duals who are more deserving of selection at that moment in time. But I can see both arguments for sure, with the way we've been burned in the recent past.

And yes, I think Kingdom's argument is too simplistic for the reasons you've highlighted. Wales have a far more ruthless approach and it's serving them well. We'll never know for sure how many of their England qualified players would have deflected/chose England if they weren't tied down so early, but there is something to be said for not taking that chance (or at least finding out early where their head is at).

[paul_oshea]

It's nowhere near as straight forward as that, and hopefully most people see that.

Firstly, if we call up Smallbone (or anyone else) to the Nations League squad in the autumn and that player says no, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. In that case it's clear the player is not fully committed to us and we can move on. It also frees up a space in the Under 21 squad for a player who is committed to playing for us, which is more important than success at under 21 level.

Secondly, the "If he wants to play for Ireland, he'll play for Ireland whenever we pick him, if he doesn't want to play for us, he won't" approach shows that some people have learned nothing from the Declan Rice saga. Rice was happy to play for us until he was put under heavy pressure to play for England. But if we had capped him competitively earlier England would have never come sniffing after him and he would have continued happily playing for Ireland.

Therefore there is a distinct advantage in fast tracking dual national players that are progressing quickly at club level. It's beneficial to both country and player - the country confirms the nationality of the player while the player no longer has to deal with the pressure and sensitivity of the situation, the decision is made and they can move on.

Instead, some would rather learn nothing from past experience and sleep walk us into losing more players that would have been happy to play for us if we had handled their situation better.

100%. people aren't learning from past mistakes, perhaps they haven't owned up to them just yet.

I don't get this unfair argument? IF that player gets 1 cap and the other player gets 0 caps, we haven't missed out. If that player gets 1 cap and the other player gets 50 caps he hasn't missed out and we havent either. IF that player gets 0 caps and the other player gets 1 cap, then we have missed out.

[DeLorean]

You don't get that it's unfair to select a player who's a flight risk, for that sole purpose, ahead of somebody who is more deserving/ready at that point in time? Well, then I can't help you.

But, like I say, I can see both sides, especially now that the Nations League is such a convenient way of tying a player, if they're willing of course.

I do agree with Kingdom that I'd tend to trust SK's judgement on this. I feel, even by default, he'll manage these situations better than his predecessors, as he's going to be more willing to select players earlier and approach the whole thing more tactfully.

[youngirish]

I see Dara O'Shea had another good performance starting for West Brom yesterday on the right side of defence. Scored a goal too. If he keeps his place until the end of the season then he at least must be worth a squad place in September/October.

[Kingdom]

It's nowhere near as straight forward as that, and hopefully most people see that.
It also frees up a space in the Under 21 squad for a player who is committed to playing for us, which is more important than success at under 21 level.

Honestly, I think the last part of your sentence sums up one of the big flaws with Irish football. We've skipped over constantly possibly the most important grade in underage football forever. We've made one appointment in that grade that has been positive, it coincided with a great group of players, and it has resulted in us being genuine contenders to qualify for that tournament for the first time ever. Success in this grade - relative success - is absolutely vital. Smallbone appears to be a very very talented kid, and has been magnificent for the 19s up to now. If Will Smallbone isn't entirely sure about committing to Ireland, I am quite content for him to graduate to continue playing for the 21s, as he will be important to that group if Connolly and Molumby are promoted.
If Will Smallbone, by playing for the 21s, contributes positively to Dara O'Shea, Caoimhin Kelleher, Lee O'Connor, Nathan Collins, Conor Coventry, Troy Parrott, Jason Knight, Tyreke Wright, Danny Mandriou and all these guys, playing in an Under 21s European finals, and competing at elite level of 21s football, which contributes positively to their careers, and subsequently declares for England, then I consider that to be more important than him playing for the last 3 minutes away to Bulgaria in the hope of capping him, or indeed more important than naming him in the senior squad only for him to refuse over unsuredness, and not even accept a 21s call-up.

Secondly, the "If he wants to play for Ireland, he'll play for Ireland whenever we pick him, if he doesn't want to play for us, he won't" approach shows that some people have learned nothing from the Declan Rice saga. Rice was happy to play for us until he was put under heavy pressure to play for England.

I can't recall how many senior qualifier squads Declan Rice was named in, that he turned up for. How many was it? Same with Grealish.

But if we had capped him competitively earlier England would have never come sniffing after him and he would have continued happily playing for Ireland.

If we'd capped him competitively, England couldn't have come after him! However, by all accounts, referenced here, for a long time now, pre-Rice, England have been tracking our shadowing of 2gers and 3gers. We are u

Therefore there is a distinct advantage in fast tracking dual national players that are progressing quickly at club level. It's beneficial to both country and player - the country confirms the nationality of the player while the player no longer has to deal with the pressure and sensitivity of the situation, the decision is made and they can move on.

I'm of the opinion, that if you do that, a) you make a laughing stock of your senior national team, and b) you end up alienating other dual-nationalists because it'll become quite clear that players are being capped on potential, rather than merit, in order to secure their status.
I'm not that insecure, and thankfully it looks like Stephen Kenny isn't either.

Instead, some would rather learn nothing from past experience and sleep walk us into losing more players that would have been happy to play for us if we had handled their situation better.[/QUOTE]

yerra, good luck to you, you're as entitled to your opinion as mine, but to me the above is a crock of ****. I want players picked for the squad today, who deserve to be in the squad today. Will Smallbone, shouldn't, absolutely shouldn't, be in our national senior squad now. The 21s are the best place for him now.

[Kingdom]

100%. people aren't learning from past mistakes, perhaps they haven't owned up to them just yet.

I don't get this unfair argument? IF that player gets 1 cap and the other player gets 0 caps, we haven't missed out. If that player gets 1 cap and the other player gets 50 caps he hasn't missed out and we havent either. IF that player gets 0 caps and the other player gets 1 cap, then we have missed out.

Maybe some people are just a little too precious about our own pool of players, and the perceived strength of those we could be losing out on? It should be about whether the guy is deserving of it now!

Southampton underage players.....not Dortmund, not Barcelona, not PSG, Southampton. And the real crux of the matter here, is - whether anyone will admit this or not i don't know, and frankly dont care - because it's England. Not Scotland, not Luxembourg or Finland, but England.

Can I use two comparisons:
1) Jack Grealish vs Aiden McGeady:
Aiden McGeady played underage football for us very early in his career. Played all the way up, could have left, and didn't. His link to Ireland you could argue was less solid than Grealish. No pressure put on to cap him too early.
What the **** has Jack Grealish done in his football career to justify losing our **** over him?
2) Declan Rice vs James McCarthy:
The same applies here. Declan Rice, at the moment, is a competent professional footballer. The hype is over the top on both sides of the water, and was at a time when Nationalism in England was beginning to become a thorny issue.

Paul O'Shea is constantly hammering everyone left right and centre on all forms of internet based communications for irish fans getting excited about young players, yet here, in this example, the opposite is the case: we're fools if we're comfortable with keeping a modicum of self-respect by naming prematuraly ejaculating a green jersey over some kid who just happens to be born in England.

It's the game we play by having a divisive, torn, and frankly schoolboy and domestic setup for generations that offloaded underage responsibility to the highest bidder in England, and also due to our nearly unique situation in terms of diaspora.

[Kingdom]

maybe with Eirambler, I should try and clarify something with you.

Are you saying that we should just go and cap SMallbone immediately to prevent him from leaving for England, partly because not capping Rice and Grealish when they were 18 is what created the situation that allowed both of them align with England?
But didn't irish managers in the past try to name Declan Rice and Jack Grealish in senior squads - and Liam Kelly and Dan Crowley - only for them to refuse the call-up? Oneill certainly had one squad announcement postponed due to it.

So, in a sense, they wouldn't have allowed themselves to be capped at senior level anyway!

[paul_oshea]

You don't get that it's unfair to select a player who's a flight risk, for that sole purpose, ahead of somebody who is more deserving/ready at that point in time? Well, then I can't help you.

I think youre missing the point here, if that player is ready and deserving, hell get his chance, regardless of smallbone playing a meaningless 5 minutes at the end of a competitive game.

The question to ask really , is he happy to sit on the bench?

[Kingdom]

I think youre missing the point here, if that player is ready and deserving, hell get his chance, regardless of smallbone playing a meaningless 5 minutes at the end of a competitive game.

You could argue the last 5 mins of a competitive Ireland match is the most important when you consider the last few years anyway :-)

The question to ask really , is he happy to sit on the bench?[/QUOTE]

Smallbone, or 'random-deserving-but-not-eligible-for-other-countries-higher-ranked-than-us' player?

[paul_oshea]

Paul O'Shea is constantly hammering everyone left right and centre on all forms of internet based communications for irish fans getting excited about young players, yet here, in this example, the opposite is the case: we're fools if we're comfortable with keeping a modicum of self-respect by naming prematuraly ejaculating a green jersey over some kid who just happens to be born in England.

I go around the Internet, on a crusade to right the wrongs of those less worthy and knowledgeable on such matters. Again they are not one and the same, capping a player who is playing in a competitive premier league side is not the same as getting worked up about another player. If connolly is talked about or parrott as good enough to be in the squad and/or get a few snr minutes, then yes i'd push for a dual national born in england playing in england to get the 5 mins. And even possibly ahead of them. You can't paint with the one brush, stroke all over the canvas, its all in the detail Kingdom.

[elatedscum]

I've furrowed a lone plough on this. We've a blind spot with goalkeepers, and have had for a long while in my opinion. We see the spectacular saves, but the nuts and bolts....
I'll just say this. I think Darren Randolph is the reason for a lot of our woes in the last couple of years. I've no axe to grind, I don't dislike him, but for me his positioning is poor, he's weak in the box, and we've conceded some very poor goals. That aside, the biggest gripe I have, is that he forces us 10-15 yds further back the pitch, than up the pitch, and it kills us. It drags the midfield further back to keep the link with defence, and then a knock-on effect on the teams overall position. And when you're a team that constantly gives the ball to the opposition, that 15 yd retreat is a killer. I'm not making this up, I'm not imagining it, look at games over the last 5 years. It's not about having our keeper becoming Ederson or spraying balls around the pitch, but it's about being that bit more aggressive in the set-up. This is something that Kenny has implemented with the 21s, and I'm certain it will continue.

I think there's a few things things. Randolph gave an interview after the Germany game, where he said that Roy gave him an absolute bollocking for trying to play out from the back and he learnt his lesson and didn't go short again or something to that effect. I haven't really paid attention to his positioning in open play - but I will. I do think that coaching set ups can have a huge influence on how aggressive a keeper is with his positioning, his distribution etc. etc. Kelleher, for all his current limitations, distributed aggressively at 21 level (well but certainly not flawlessly) and was extremely aggressive in pushing defenders up the pitch and charging to sweep up (he's also very quick which helps). I was worried about Randolph's performances at the end of the world cup campaign and during the nation's league and there were goals he should have done better on (off the top of my head v Denmark in WC and Wales in NL). Nonethless, his saves in the 1-0 wins against Gibraltar and Georgia literally won us the game. It'll be interesting to see how things go with the new coaching set up, but, as of July, there is no real credible alternative to him.

I probably have derailed this thread a bit considering it was about the influx of young players.

Some of the most interesting debate I've read on the Ireland in a long time. Well articulated from all sides

I see Dara O'Shea had another good performance starting for West Brom yesterday on the right side of defence. Scored a goal too. If he keeps his place until the end of the season then he at least must be worth a squad place in September/October.

We’re short on right back’s alright In all honesty, it’s probably between O’Shea, Lenihan and Long for the 4th centre back slot. I’ve heard Andrews speak very highly of Lenihan and his footballing ability. Personally, I think he might struggle against top players.


I’d probably keep O’Shea with the 21s until their campaign is over. He’s not gonna replace any of Clarke, Duffy or Egan in the centre for the next short while - and he’s not gonna go ahead of Coleman or Doherty on the right. He’s been excellent for the 21s for the most part, along with Masterson, Collins and Scales. He could be key to them qualifying whereas, prior to Slovakia, he’d be little more than a 23rd member of the squad.

Rice was happy to play for us until he was put under heavy pressure to play for England. But if we had capped him competitively earlier England would have never come sniffing after him and he would have continued happily playing for Ireland.

Not just England. Gareth Southgate. The owners of his club (Gold and Sullivan). His sponsors at that time (Nike). His new agent. John Terry. Combined with the sacking of Bilic in November/December. O’Neill’s failure to include him in the squads in March. The shambles that was the Irish camp during the Arter/Keane Arter/Walters saga and O’Neill’s unique management style. The poxy world cup where england scraped past Tunisia with a 92nd minute winner to come second ahead of them and Panama and behind Belgium before dispatching the relatively poor Colombia and Sweden en route to the semi and all the hysteria that followed. It took an army of ****-ups and bad luck to make it all happen.


I'd be in favour of removing all doubt ASAP. If Obafemi hadn't been capped when he was, there'd still be speculation over his future, even though, everything he did since putting on an Irish shirt indicated he was committed. I’d fully believe Smallbone is committed too. He’s clearly an excellent footballer and he’s probably not on a hugely dissimilar path to either Connolly or Obafemi when they were capped and probably ahead of Parrott and O’Connor (albeit they weren’t competitive games, although how competitive are nation’s league games really?).


I’m not arguing for Joe Hodge to be capped now, cause clearly he doesn’t have the track record at club level or beyond U19 to merit it yet, even though i think he’s an excellent talent who will hopefully be a key midfielder for us. I saw Grealish play in the FA Cup for Notts County at age 18 and it was clear that he was good enough to play for the national team immeadiately. I fully believe if he had been called up at that point, he would have remained an Irish player. I could easily be wrong but I think so. Equally, in terms of the value of a cap, in March 2018, Declan Rice was operating at a higher level (in performances) than all of Meyler, Hendrick and After who played against Moldova. The 83rd minute introduction of Seanie Maguire for his debut could just as easily have been Declan then. O’Neill believed in showing loyalty to his current squad and that replacing one of those lads when they hadn’t done anything wrong was somehow a mistake. Eunan O’Kane was an unused sub that night. And while I admire Eunan as a human on many levels, I don’t think a single person in Landsdowne would have argued that Declan was not more capable of ensuring a win for Ireland than Eunan was.


I still think there could be a chance that Smallbone is called up in September, depending on his performances during the remainder of the season and who is fit come September. If not, hopefully Kenny’s care and man management will be an improvement on previous management teams. And they watch his performances at u21 level carefully. Ogbone and Rose are both positive indicators in terms of both hands on approach and results. I think Kenny is actually trying to do something deeper, in terms of avenues and pathways for progression through the youth teams. Also, his previous judgement that Smallbone was behind Ronan, Mandriou, Taylor and Knight, maybe means that he feels as though you’ve got to prove it at 21 level before you can earn a senior cap.


As long as there are no casualties or defections, I’d be all for it. But I guarantee you, come September, England eligible Neco Williams will be skipping U21s and going straight from U19s to Wales’ squad. I know people will rightly say that Wales aren’t a great side but imagine how much worse they would have been without Bale and Ramsey. And with the likes of Daniel James, Harry Wilson, Ben Woodburn, Ethan Ampadu, Neco Williams, Rabbi Matondo - there are many promising young players between 19 and 23 coming through, all of whom were eligible and courted by England but capped by Wales, often before they had played a club game. (Bale, Ampadu, Wilson were 16 when called up. Ramsey, Woodburn 17, Matondo was just turned 18).


Stephen Kenny spoke yesterday about how we have under-utilised certain players notably Egan and Doherty (I’d certainly argue Stevens too) - and how between 1993 onwards there haven’t been any players. I dunno if it’s Cullen, Byrne, Browne, Manning, Shodipo, Curtis, Maguire, Williams, Lenihan, McDermott etc etc etc but clearly we haven’t done a good enough job at identifying when players are ready to make the step up and we’ve been too cautious. I can see Wales’ argument for that extreme approach but even if we are just hyper-aware of when a dual eligible player reaches maturity, we’d be in a much better position, not promoting players above their station, just recognising what their present abilities are.


Hopefully the next generation of Southampton players: Obafemi, Smallbone, O’Connor, Ledwidge, Keogh and Ferry will put the likes of Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Ings, Ward-Prowse, Walcott, Shaw, Lallana and, er, McGoldrick to shame

[Kingdom]

I go around the Internet, on a crusade to right the wrongs of those less worthy and knowledgeable on such matters.

Admission of guilt is a wonderful thing. I know that's a dig at me, but I don't dimish peoples excitement at player potential, nor do I try to dampen their expectations. Would I try to dampen someones upset at "missing out on a player"? Damn right.

Again they are not one and the same, capping a player who is playing in a competitive premier league side is not the same as getting worked up about another player.

A boy who has played a couple of times in a poor PL side that is safe from relegation. Like, for me it's simple. If he's good enough to be in the squad, then that's fine, name him in the squad. If it's not clear, then weigh up the pros and cons. If it's marginal, over someone who's been a bit part, and will never realistically play a competitive international for us, then fine pick him in the squad, particularly if we're scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
But simply naming him in the squad will be enough to tell you if wants to play for us in the future or not, because all youth internationals know these days what being capped in a competitive game over a friendly means.

I'm delighted for him for his progression, absolutely, and I hope he goes on to a have a great club career, and international career for Ireland. But he has to want to play for Ireland. And I stand by my earlier assertion that sooner or later, obvious cynical ploys such as tieing fellas by obviously playing them for 1 minute at the end of a game, will do more harm than good, either for prospective players, or the morale of existing 2 and 3g er's.

Joe Lapira ring any bells?

If connolly is talked about or parrott as good enough to be in the squad and/or get a few snr minutes, then yes i'd push for a dual national born in england playing in england to get the 5 mins. And even possibly ahead of them.

But you rubbish those of us who laud the ability of Connolly and Parrott, those of us who have seen these players in the flesh playing for Ireland, and how good they've looked. Aaron Connolly's achievements at clublevel - so far - are greater than Smallbone's, and he's best played in a position that we struggle in. the left of the top 3.

Will smallbone is arguably played best in a position a little more advanced of a central midfield three, from what I can tell, from what I've seen, and from what I've read. For me he's not in the top 3 players for that position, so doesn't deserve to be in the squad. ANd for me that's the difference.

You can't paint with the one brush, stroke all over the canvas, its all in the detail Kingdom.

I don't understand what you're saying. But if it's what I think it is, then it's lads like you who chip away at small one-liner statements that make paranoid muppets like me waste the time of others by trying to qualify every position taken on any subject. There's a term for that, can't quite place it, but I'm sure I do seem like the onlinification of the "someone said something wrong on the internet" meme.
I couldn't give a **** if someone got a prediction about a players worth or career expectancy wrong, nor would I go out of my way to point that out to someone (I hope). If I felt someone's contribution was marginalised or dumbed down, sure, I'll stand over that.

You, however, brother, you only look backwards, and speak with a man with the wisdom of hindsight. Enlighten us to the future.