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Thread: Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

  1. #1281
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    I see UEFA are talking about pulling out of Dublin for the euros unless there are 10000 people minimum at the matches according to RTE.
    Might force the Government into doing something along the lines of allowing people who have been vaccinated attend or something like that.
    Might help the LOI in terms of starting the conversation.
    Tbh the relevant authorities are quietly quite ok if UEFA were pushing things now so a quick an easy decision could be made while the whole lockdown thing is still in full swing. The prospect of a whole load of non Irish fans travelling in for games has people breaking out in a cold sweat. But of course there will be a backlash if a decision is left to the April deadline, the situation has improved, restrictions being lifted and then the decision is still Non - especially if the hospitality sector is open in any way. It's far to complex and expensive to implement a vax cert for attendees of these games from outside of Ireland unless there is an integrated EU system in general and not just for sports (or any other large gatherings). If anyone happens to have tickets for these games Id be looking to get a refund now!!

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  3. #1282
    First Team D24Saint's Avatar
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  4. #1283
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    You wonder if that'll hold up to the vaccine issues starting to develop now - AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson both on hold.

    I don't think we'll see more than a token amount of fans at games this season, and I can't see how Euro 2020 is going to go ahead here at all.

    Hope I'm wrong of course, but that's how it's looking anyway.

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    Coach John83's Avatar
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    I think the AZ and J&J vaccine issues will amount to little more than bureaucratic hold-up. There'll be guidelines released to prefer other vaccines for certain cohorts - all six of the cases behind the J&J review in the US are women under 50, for example, and the AZ guidelines here seem to be to restrict it to people over 60 - but ultimately the serious side effects seem to be in the "struck by lightning" class of probability and the substantial good they'll do outweighs the rare harm. That is likely to delay rollout a bit, but not that much as pent up supplies can be used up quickly enough when they're released.
    Vaccinated.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Yeah, I hope so - but then if we're going to stop the vaccine roll-out every time someone gets struck by lightning, this whole process could be delayed quite a while.

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    The Brits put s venture capitalist in charge of their roll out , we put a retired academic in charge of ours....QED

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John83 View Post
    I think the AZ and J&J vaccine issues will amount to little more than bureaucratic hold-up. There'll be guidelines released to prefer other vaccines for certain cohorts - all six of the cases behind the J&J review in the US are women under 50, for example, and the AZ guidelines here seem to be to restrict it to people over 60 - but ultimately the serious side effects seem to be in the "struck by lightning" class of probability and the substantial good they'll do outweighs the rare harm. That is likely to delay rollout a bit, but not that much as pent up supplies can be used up quickly enough when they're released.
    You are right on that but its a lot easier to 'sell' pausing certain vaccinations and disruption to roll-out due to potential health concerns, than biopharma companies not being able to meet production commitments. It takes the heat out of 'vaccine nationalism' and the political mess that causes and gives legitimacy to delays. The UK government have done a fine job of damage limitation with an efficient vaccine program, buutttt are running low on stocks for lower risk population and vaccination booster. What will also save face there is the ridiculous levels of no show for vax appointments which is in region of 50% in some centres daily!! (AZ vaccine is about 75!% effective so combine the math and there is plenty to go before early progress can truly be called) add in the safety net that there is argument for pause on side-effects and yeah there is political credibility on the line along with bureaucratic messing - some intentional and some just covering asses. Its is not easy to get consistent stats on whether vaccination of UK population (England and Wales) include those that were no-show for their appointments! Numbers are going to be skewed as there some Trusts seem to include vaccines offered and not just those administered.... Numbers of disposed and spoiled vaccines are not seperated (by spoiled I mean broken vials or drawn up dose needing to be binned like if dropped on the floor).

    The Leinster Rugby proposal is very good in principle and all things working well is plausible but in practice we need to be a lot further on in general nationally on vaccine numbers. I was optimistic with the vaccine figures numbers suggested pre Christmas as doable but vaccine supplies didnt materialise, roll-out plans were manageable also. I cant see how even restricted and highly monitored attendances at Leinster games will be allowed when there is so much pressure on reopening hospitality for example, which will be the true test of where we're at overall. Time lapse between this proposal and seeing any trends would have to be 3 weeks minimum and then tracking any trend/spread after. Pressure come on from GAA who have seriously blotted their copybook so that conflict will likely be sidestepped rather than letting fans at rugby but not for Gaelic Football and Hurling championships. For LoI what Leinster are trying to do is not feasible across all grounds. There could be an argument made for holding a number of games on a day in some venues like the Aviva and Thomand, maybe Tallaght. Again doable but with a lot of cost and a whole lot of precision organisation and coordination. Leinster are hoping to try out their plan on the back of needing to decide on Euro '20 games and IRFU could also benefit then but the can of worms will sway things away!!
    Last edited by Nesta99; 13/04/2021 at 10:07 PM.

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    Seasoned Pro gufct's Avatar
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    Proper order. I find it hard to believe that Cabinteely didn’t have 14 players available between their massive 34 man first team squad as well as their under 19s squad.

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract View Post
    Proper order. I find it hard to believe that Cabinteely didn’t have 14 players available between their massive 34 man first team squad as well as their under 19s squad.

    The 34 man squad includes the 19s i think (or at least a lot of them) dont disagree with your point though.
    Are the 19's back training?

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    First and only league in the world to award 3 points against a team with Covid.

    I shouldn't be surprised when we are the only country in the world to have the whole "junior - intermediate" eco system football instead of a proper pyramidal structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    The Brits put s venture capitalist in charge of their roll out , we put a retired academic in charge of ours....QED
    I think its more an issue of supply than rollout. US and UK have vaccine export bans from the very start, EU does not and operates as free market (up until a March that is!).

    Any vaccines that enter Ireland are normally administered within days, excluding the Astrazenica BS.

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    The issue is all about supply, rollout was well set to do the job and teething problems mainly sorted. The way its happened now, while it was quiet, is a bit of fortune or we'd spend years finding out about crony vaccination scandals.

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    I think the decision by NIAC to ban the AZ vaccine for under 60s is typical of the approach of NPHET HSE , they are covering their asses in case someone gets a bloodclot at 1 in a million because that would be a visible result of their decision while they don't care about the far greater number affected by a lengthening lockdown, undiagnosed cancers , suicides etc....these people wont be attributed to them so thats fine.
    Cover your own ass to hell with the country and enjoy your high salary while you put people on social welfare. We need a public enquiry at the end of this and NPHET NIAC HSE managers should be subject to assessment and dismissal.

    The HSE were incompetant before pandemic so we shouldnt be surprised they are still incompetant.
    Last edited by sbgawa; 15/04/2021 at 9:12 PM.

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  17. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    I think the decision by NIAC to ban the AZ vaccine for under 60s is typical of the approach of NPHET HSE , they are covering their asses in case someone gets a bloodclot at 1 in a million because that would be a visible result of their decision while they don't care about the far greater number affected by a lengthening lockdown, undiagnosed cancers , suicides etc....these people wont be attributed to them so thats fine.
    Cover your own ass to hell with the country and enjoy your high salary while you put people on social welfare. We need a public enquiry at the end of this and NPHET NIAC HSE managers should be subject to assessment and dismissal.

    The HSE were incompetant before pandemic so we shouldnt be surprised they still are still incompetant.
    The above is both relative and quite sweeping which I can understand but isnt always true throughout the service!

    There people are undoubtedly victims of covid whether contracting the virus or not. I would agree that a public enquiry is needed after this but not as a witch hunt, the failings of the HSE probably needs and enquiry irrespective of covid. But while I understand the impression given when a vaccine is suspended I do think its a necessary precaution. Its also more EU direction rather than local. It does mean that a superior alternative vaccine (more expensive) with better coverage and so far no trend indicated to stop this vaccine, and always the vaccine of preference. Focus on Pfizer, assuming they dont come up short on delivery. means the schedule in place can still be met irrespective of the AZ and J&J being suspended for cohorts.

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    They didn't know about the extra Pfizer allocation when they suspended the AZ Vaccine so they were slowing the roll out as far as they were aware for a tiny risk but then they are in no hurry and their primary motivation has always been to be ultra cautious so they cant be blamed for anything.

    My mother told me to cough into my hand to prevent "spreading your germs about" but it took "20" scientific studies and 6 months before these muppets agreed masks were a good idea. Everyone knew they were a good idea but they wouldn't push it until they had massive back up to cover their asses.

    We desperately need a Public enquiry into these cartels HSE NPHET NIAC and IF they are adjudged to have performed poorly there needs to be sanctions just like there would be in the private sector for incompetance.
    The increase in the secretary generals in dept of health salary from 211k to 290k was justified as allowing them to attract the best and the brightest to the job, then they give it to the guy who was in the job already on a temporary basis having been transferred from another dept. Give me strength.

    The phrase lions led by donkeys from the first world war describing the soldiers is a good description for the minority (becoming a smaller minority all the time as HSE recruit more managers) of frontline staff.

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    We need the head of the HSE to explain as to why all HSE staff including admin staff working from home and/or admin staff who never engage with the public were offered and given the vaccine - Paul Reid keeps avoiding that question or making bland statements about numbers being low and how difficult it is to come up with the exact number ; still let’s deflect and make lots of noise about 20 teachers in a private’ school jumping the queue and ignore the thousands of HSE who put themselves ahead of the elderly etc.

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  21. #1298
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calcio Jack View Post
    We need the head of the HSE to explain as to why all HSE staff including admin staff working from home and/or admin staff who never engage with the public were offered and given the vaccine - Paul Reid keeps avoiding that question or making bland statements about numbers being low and how difficult it is to come up with the exact number ; still let’s deflect and make lots of noise about 20 teachers in a private’ school jumping the queue and ignore the thousands of HSE who put themselves ahead of the elderly etc.
    There is a balance to be had of course but a health service needs its admin sections functioning along with clinical departments or it will cease to function. There is a community risk to those admin staff even if at home as it is a pandemic and if stay at home guidelines were cover protection we wouldnt be worrying about vaccines But if people have been vaccinated who are over suspended clinics and havent been allocated to a functioning department then yes questions need to be asked. If all admin staff at the Department of Health were vaccinated then that is a big story. The Beacon Hospital incident was a disgusting incident and decision by Beacon management, there may have been some rationale if it were a local school but its was blatant abuse of position and so their service and the large amount of money that went with was quickly suspended. It may seem disproportionate or 'noise' but it was a deterrent to others. Who hand picked 20 of their teaching staff and why would be interesting and it has seriously undermined a lot of staff in that school so I hope they reap what theyve sown.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    They didn't know about the extra Pfizer allocation when they suspended the AZ Vaccine so they were slowing the roll out as far as they were aware for a tiny risk but then they are in no hurry and their primary motivation has always been to be ultra cautious so they cant be blamed for anything.

    My mother told me to cough into my hand to prevent "spreading your germs about" but it took "20" scientific studies and 6 months before these muppets agreed masks were a good idea. Everyone knew they were a good idea but they wouldn't push it until they had massive back up to cover their asses.

    We desperately need a Public enquiry into these cartels HSE NPHET NIAC and IF they are adjudged to have performed poorly there needs to be sanctions just like there would be in the private sector for incompetance.
    The increase in the secretary generals in dept of health salary from 211k to 290k was justified as allowing them to attract the best and the brightest to the job, then they give it to the guy who was in the job already on a temporary basis having been transferred from another dept. Give me strength.

    The phrase lions led by donkeys from the first world war describing the soldiers is a good description for the minority (becoming a smaller minority all the time as HSE recruit more managers) of frontline staff.
    I have no particular Grá for the HSE, a very close family member needed multiple amputations as a result of negligence post partum, I have limited experience working directly for the HSE but it was enough - I have witnessed patient records being adjusted after a clinical incident, reported it, watched the behaviour after, and why i never wanted to work with the HSE regardless of how convenient it might have been. But at the same time they are something of a patsy for adverse incidents in the country. I can assure you that the HSE is no more open to errors than the NHS or even the excellently funded French health system. I can see why people would be frustrated by what is apparent delays in implementing protocols but everything in healthcare is evidence driven and it has to be! The example of masks, at face value (pardon the pun) it made sense, but consideration had to be given on whether masks could be riskier fomites, create vectors themselves, would people feel protected and drop their guard so masking up could worsen the situation. We didnt know what standard of mask was needed earlier days, with a worldwide shortage of PPE could you redirect masks away from frontline staff. Id be pretty sure looking back that any mask directive happened as supplies improved otherwise the lack of supplies can cause panic and not everyone is as rational as us LoI fans. Covering coughs by coughing in to an elbow is less about suppressing viral spread of the cough and more about not touching the face and surroundings with hands that may carry the virus (coughing in to the hand would make things a whole lot worse but our parents woudnt have known that until the evidence mounted that it was a cause of infection in itself but subtle adjustment to the elbow was better). People wearing gloves would be a disaster as the research showed that people rarely changed glove, forgot about them, never washed hands and continued to touch the face with the gloves in some belief that the gloves themselves didnt become contaminated. I have heard similar commets on the use of masks and gloves, but evidence based data eventually showed that there was an overall benefit to wearing masks, but an overall risk to wearing gloves. It takes time and not time that some people have, but you cant implement policy without the weight of evidence - otherwise a whole load of us would be suffering liver condition after popping hydroxychloroquine, I drug that I would have expected to have some net benefit tbh until the evidence suggested otherwise. If policy dictated the use of masks and evidence subsequently show little impact then the issue would be about govt concern on optics and unnecessarily wasting resources, Damed if you do damned if you dont.

    Claims of Tony Holohan becoming power hungry and wasnt letting go, loving the limelight etc was unfair, considering his wifes health during their crisis. I have yet to see where NPHET have gone badly wrong and indeed it was not heeding their advice kickstarted this wave and subsequent lockdown. I think an independent enquiry in to the overall management of an unprecedented public health emergency in due course would just be good practice but not with undertones or accusations of sub par performance. If that is the case then it will be identified of not then credit where credit is due. Cartels? or coordinated strategy, consultation and joined up thinking? The breaking of rank between Govt and NPHET, where finger pointing started and undermined public confidence will be identified as failed moment and the start of this current extended lockdown, Vaccine rollout - well if the Germans, Canadians, French have difficulty as major biopharma hubs, its indicative of problems in international supply chains more than local rollout. Maybe we should have broke ranks with the EU and had a joint strategy with the UK?? We'd probably be further along with early vaccination - but id still rather be part of a 27 country bloc of 500mil people going forward than in the UK's situation. This is simply as there is a long long way to go on covid-19, AZ vaccines are drying up, questions on rates of efficacy and side effects and it very likely to be less adaptable to variants - but like everything else that will be a wait an see. The showing up of variants from India in the UK that are of much more concern than the UK and Brazil variants, coupled with the over enthusiastic lifting of restrictions where people have gathered in large number eg London's West End, could completely undo the progress mad there. Its frustrating for sure but evidence based, sure footed progress, is going to trump the race to claim to have been the saviour of a nation to save a political career. Time will tell and im finding it odd that booster jabs for NHS staff are already being scheduled and if you have one type of vaccine, prior to Christmas 2021 it will be another vaccine given.

    Are you sure that the changes to AZ protocols were made without knowledge of improved supplies from Pfizer pending?!

    Its all been a sh1tshow but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater! As a people, historically, we have little reason to trust those in power, elected or privilaged, but not all that are trying to navigate through this as quickly as is deemed responsible, are malevolent, self serving types, out to get one over the masses!!!
    Last edited by Nesta99; 16/04/2021 at 2:58 PM.

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  23. #1299
    Coach John83's Avatar
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    Agreed. I have a middle-aged cousin, a HSE accountant working from home. She's vaccinated, while her dad who has pre-existing conditions is not. It's bonkers.
    Vaccinated.

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    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    .

    Claims of Tony Holohan becoming power hungry and wasnt letting go, loving the limelight etc was unfair, considering his wifes health during their crisis.

    I have every sympathy for his PRIVATE situation but do believe he and most of the guys at the top of the HSE are the best possible illustration of the Peter Principle where everyone is promoted until they reach their level of incompetence.

    Fair play to you btw for speaking out when you saw records altered , its always easier to look away particularly in collegiate type of settings

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