Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I don't share the view that there won't be any more sport this year but if there isn't the question becomes do you combine the season because at that point you're looking at a delayed start to the 2021 season but if you add in the 4/5 games played that allows you leeway for that and potentially remove some midweek games.

[El-Pietro]

I don't share the view that there won't be any more sport this year but if there isn't the question becomes do you combine the season because at that point you're looking at a delayed start to the 2021 season but if you add in the 4/5 games played that allows you leeway for that and potentially remove some midweek games.

I think if the season doesn't happen in 2020 then you sort of have to scrap the games played.

At a high-level I see three options available for all leagues world wide and the viability for each depends on the calendar for that league.

1) You finish the current season as soon as possible, posisbly having a knock on effect on future seasons.
2) You shorten the current season to finish it within a reasonable time frame - but sporting integrity must be maintained - schedules need to be at least reasonably fair.
3) You abandon the current season.

For leagues that are nearing their end, all European Winter leagues, the NBA and NHL I would suggest finishing them, no matter how long it takes. You can pay a shortened season in 2020/21, or cancel that season entirely if needs be. There is too much invested into a 3/4 finished season to just abandon it. If you just end the season and declare winners etc you are opening yourself up for lawsuits. Liverpool are basically champions but what about CL spots, relegation, those are still being fought for. Same for promotion from lower tiers, and titles in other leagues/ For leagues with playoffs (like NBA and NHL) you can probably make changes to the playoff system without massive consequences on sporting integrity. Turn two legged ties into single legs, shorten playoff series, if you were supposed to play a round of home and away shorten that to just home or away. There are solutions available.

For seasons that have not started, or have just begun the approach will depend on when you can return. So for us, and MLB for example if we can return in June then play a half season or 2/3rds. Games that are already played still count. Its not ideal but it can work. However if games cannot realistically be played until say September for example - what do you do then? Extend the season into Jan/Feb and play out an 18 game season? Maybe. What if its November before we can play again? There is going to be a tipping point where you have to say its not practical to finish the 2020 season and its better to scrap it and start again.

I realise that is going to be unfair to Rovers who were off to a good start, but no matter what solution we go with someone gets screwed. We are just 4.5 games into the season and Rovers lead is pretty small. I don't even know if the bookies would have had them as favourites.

There is a fourth option available to Winter leagues. You stop the season today but don't relegate anyone. So in England you say top 4 go to CL, Liverpool are Champions. No relegation. Promote the top 2 from the Championship and have a 22 team league next year. Then you relegate 5 teams in 2021. Carry this on down the leagues. It would sitll cause legal issues though with broadcasters, teams fighting for CL spaces, playoff teams in the Championship etc.

[oriel]

Just on the winter leagues, absoultely shut them all down now and leave positions as they are. This will be trickey for relegation spots, but they will have to work that out.

Belgium took the right decison yesterday and led by example.

As for us, I work in Dublin and don't see myself going back there until June, maybe end of, so that's probably the earliest football or when most sport can re-commence in Ireland, if LOI can't re-start before 1st July thats it my view, how can we have a season in 2020.

Then what do the euro teams too, if that gets the go ahead, they'll have to start back training in June, will they be allowed, will euro games even be on, plenty of questions, not enough answers, as no one really knows how all of ths will pan out.

[joey B]

I'd agree with all of the above but the main reason I think they'll find a way to finish the season is simply money,billions of pounds would need to be paid back in tv money across Europe and that doesn't even factor the possibility of supporters asking for season ticket money back,could sponsors ask for money back ?

Then you have the possibility of litigation from the likes of Leeds,West Brom even Coventry,these are hundreds of millions of pounds on the line that league positions decide,whatever happens not everyone will be happy and legal action could happen in any manner of scenarios,a proper mess......

[oriel]

I realise that is going to be unfair to Rovers who were off to a good start, but no matter what solution we go with someone gets screwed. We are just 4.5 games into the season and Rovers lead is pretty small. I don't even know if the bookies would have had them as favourites.

I like to watch odds during the season, and I took a screenshot of the PP betting on 29/02 (day after the 3-2 Rovers win over DFC) and the prices were as follows

Dundalk 11/10
Rovers 11/10
Bohs 20/1
Derry 20/1
Pats 40/1
Shels 40/1

Dundalk had moved from evens and Rovers from 7/4

[sbgawa]

I think the FAI would look to go to a 2 series of games and still have a league this year if 3 is to many to squeeze in.
The league in the distant past often was only mid 20's games long and at least it sorts out promotion relegation and Europe for this year.
Id rather that then move back to winter football tbh and not just because Rovers have a pretty irrelevant 3 point advantage

[nigel-harps1954]

There's no way either FAI, or the clubs, can afford to scrap this current league season. Contracts need to be fulfilled, season tickets need to be honoured, and a lot of money spent will be wasted.

Whether it's June, July, September, October, or whenever, the league needs to pick up where it left off.

You can look at the 2021 season then being a shortened season, planned in advance, to get all the financials in the right place.

[redarmyfaction]

There's no way either FAI, or the clubs, can afford to scrap this current league season. Contracts need to be fulfilled, season tickets need to be honoured, and a lot of money spent will be wasted.

Whether it's June, July, September, October, or whenever, the league needs to pick up where it left off.

You can look at the 2021 season then being a shortened season, planned in advance, to get all the financials in the right place.

The floodlights have gone out all over Europe, Nige and it's a long time before we will see them lit again.

[Nesta99]

I'd agree with all of the above but the main reason I think they'll find a way to finish the season is simply money,billions of pounds would need to be paid back in tv money across Europe and that doesn't even factor the possibility of supporters asking for season ticket money back,could sponsors ask for money back ?

Then you have the possibility of litigation from the likes of Leeds,West Brom even Coventry,these are hundreds of millions of pounds on the line that league positions decide,whatever happens not everyone will be happy and legal action could happen in any manner of scenarios,a proper mess......

Could TV deals, season ticket et al be just extended for the time out. No obligation to do so but it would be something of a collaborative effort. I doubt a tv company would want to a participant in financially gutting elite football assuing the can keep their own show on he road.

[osarusan]

If the season has to be shortened, it should be done by removing games yet to be played, rather than games already played.

So if it is to be just two rounds, continue the current round and play one more.

I don't see any argument for expunging existing results.

[ArFella]

If the season has to be shortened, it should be done by removing games yet to be played, rather than games already played.

So if it is to be just two rounds, continue the current round and play one more.

I don't see any argument for expunging existing results.

Yeah, have to agree with this, if there is any more football to be played this year it has to be continued from where we left off, if we're still not playing by August/September then you look at cancelling the season and the 2021 LoI would have to begin fresh but it makes no sense to talk about playing the 2020 season but scrapping fixtures already completed.

[redobit]

I know you're not saying that it would be fairest but I just can't possibly see what people would think would be unfair about counting the games already played? It's not as if some clubs have a longer break than others, it's the same across the board, there's nothing unfair about it.

I don't think you can count the 5 games and have a 2.5 rounds season, teams would argue that they had a tougher first 5 games than others. Corks fixtures vs Finn Harps fixtures springs to mind.

So you know its the fairest. Fair enough. The reason people would think the season should start again because it is by all intents and purposes a new season. If it goes to a point where you are playing 2 rounds of games then that will be at least September. Contracts could have well been modified, players will be free to move around, close season of 6 or 7 months, a new pre season. And as you rightly pointed out teams could argue thay they have had it tougher than others with first 5 fixtures. A clean slate is the fairest way for a new 2 series round of games.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

So you know its the fairest. Fair enough. The reason people would think the season should start again because it is by all intents and purposes a new season. If it goes to a point where you are playing 2 rounds of games then that will be at least September. Contracts could have well been modified, players will be free to move around, close season of 6 or 7 months, a new pre season. And as you rightly pointed out teams could argue thay they have had it tougher than others with first 5 fixtures. A clean slate is the fairest way for a new 2 series round of games.

You've misread/misunderstood what I said there please try again.
I never said I know it's the fairest, I acknowledged that the person I was replying to wasn't saying that it was either.

But it's not a new season it's just one season with a big break in it which is unusual but not a reason to rip it up and start again.

People in this case is you, just you, look at the other replies.

Mate think all this has affected your head a bit you're not making any sense. Contracts can be modified at any point in the season anyway, players are free to move mid season anyway (not that it's gonna happen anyway with all clubs struggling to survive as is and it would be pretty easy for the FAI to prevent it if clubs did look to abuse the situation), teams can't argue that they've had a tougher first 5 games if they play full rounds, that only comes into it if you play half rounds.

Except a clean slate is objectively unfair because you're punishing teams that have started well just because, well for absolutely no reason whatsoever, apart from helping Sligo try avoid relegation.

[redobit]

Imo if it goes to a certain stage then it is a new season, is that too hard for you to get. Just cause you say Im wrong dosent make you right.

I actually wouldnt have much of a problem continuing with the season if it is the full season. We have been missing 7 first team players for start of the season (mostly defenders) plus we just signed a striker. I think we'd be ok to get away from relegation if it was a full season. Other teams could easily argue that we have got an unfair advantage in that case! Playaing again in 6/ 7 months is a fresh start and has to be a new season imo.

[Nesta99]

In 'midseason' could the league format really be changed? eg kicking off again in September, play 1.5 rounds with played games standing and aiming to finish as scheduled in November. Wouldnt it leave open the risk of legal issues with clubs that did not win the league, qualify for Europe, are relegated or not promoted on the basis that lost rounds may have saved a season. If time allows play out the full season or extend the season for as long as needed. If things dont return in time for that and the season is likely to be shortened, starting from scratch could have the least potential for complications. Whichever route is taken it would have to be agreed by all clubs to accept final standings. Of course conversely in a change to the season's format (where clubs havent all signed up to a binding agreement on what comples the season) if Rover were to miss out on the title by 3 points or less and the first 5 games were scrapped couldnt they then consider a legal challange to a final table also?!

There are a lot of permutations and whole load of prep work needed to keep things as smooth running as possible in the event of a format change - this is LoI after all!

[oriel]

As a Dundalk fan, even though we'd still be 3 points behind if first 5 games stood in any re-start, that's just the way it goes, we lost one game = zero points for that match.

I think first 5 should stick for all clubs, then try and get as many games in as possible, its not out of the question to get two full rounds in before end of the 2020, which would of course be a shortended season, maybe if it re-starts mid june (can't see it) we might get more games played with the following options.

If it re-starts Mid June

1/ Try and get to 3 rounds completed, so all teams re-start on matchday 6, and end up playing 3 full rounds of 9 = 27 games (5 already played in S1, 4 to go, and 2 x 9 = 27).

If things only improve by End of the Summer

2/ Try and get to 2 rounds completed, so all teams re-start on matchday 6, and end up playing 2 full rounds of 9 = 18 games (5 already played in S1, 4 to go, and 1 x 9 = 18). Not sure this would work, would mean only 13 more games to go.

If things don't improve by end of summer

3/ Is there any option at this stage but to cancel it have all results null and void and start fresh in 2021?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Imo if it goes to a certain stage then it is a new season, is that too hard for you to get. Just cause you say Im wrong dosent make you right.

I actually wouldnt have much of a problem continuing with the season if it is the full season. We have been missing 7 first team players for start of the season (mostly defenders) plus we just signed a striker. I think we'd be ok to get away from relegation if it was a full season. Other teams could easily argue that we have got an unfair advantage in that case! Playaing again in 6/ 7 months is a fresh start and has to be a new season imo.

But its only a new season in the scenario you're creating, is that too hard for you to get? You can't set an arbitrary date on making it a new season just because... You still haven't put forward a single argument as to why it would be unfair to count games already played, "it just would" isn't one.

Especially when the new season starts before the original one would have ended. If Rovers are playing a game on October 23rd be that Shels or someone else why should it be a new season when it's the exact same thing that would have happened in the season as is?

In 'midseason' could the league format really be changed? eg kicking off again in September, play 1.5 rounds with played games standing and aiming to finish as scheduled in November. Wouldnt it leave open the risk of legal issues with clubs that did not win the league, qualify for Europe, are relegated or not promoted on the basis that lost rounds may have saved a season. If time allows play out the full season or extend the season for as long as needed. If things dont return in time for that and the season is likely to be shortened, starting from scratch could have the least potential for complications. Whichever route is taken it would have to be agreed by all clubs to accept final standings. Of course conversely in a change to the season's format (where clubs havent all signed up to a binding agreement on what comples the season) if Rover were to miss out on the title by 3 points or less and the first 5 games were scrapped couldnt they then consider a legal challange to a final table also?!

There are a lot of permutations and whole load of prep work needed to keep things as smooth running as possible in the event of a format change - this is LoI after all!

With the huge caveat of this being the FAI these things tend to have an "in exceptional circumstances....within reason...with agreement of x/y parties" clause (this would also cover events like teams going bust mid season) and judging by the fact they've already come to the agreement to cut out a round already and keep existing fixtures you'd imagine the next step being losing another round but then again you never know.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

As a Dundalk fan, even though we'd still be 3 points behind if first 5 games stood in any re-start, that's just the way it goes, we lost one game = zero points for that match.

I think first 5 should stick for all clubs, then try and get as many games in as possible, its not out of the question to get two full rounds in before end of the 2020, which would of course be a shortended season, maybe if it re-starts mid june (can't see it) we might get more games played with the following options.

If it re-starts Mid June

1/ Try and get to 3 rounds completed, so all teams re-start on matchday 6, and end up playing 3 full rounds of 9 = 27 games (5 already played in S1, 4 to go, and 2 x 9 = 27).

If things only improve by End of the Summer

2/ Try and get to 2 rounds completed, so all teams re-start on matchday 6, and end up playing 2 full rounds of 9 = 18 games (5 already played in S1, 4 to go, and 1 x 9 = 18). Not sure this would work, would mean only 13 more games to go.

If things don't improve by end of summer

3/ Is there any option at this stage but to cancel it have all results null and void and start fresh in 2021?

There's 16 Fridays between September 1st to Christmas Day so that would be enough for 1.5 rounds, standalone FAI Cup semi weekend, midweek Cup games and Stephens day Cup final.

So I'd agree a cut off of if things go past August scrapping it probably makes sense but you never know because if it's not much longer after that would clubs want to finish the round just to get some money in, maybe just have a cup, or if it goes on much longer do you look at combining the seasons incase of a delayed start in 2021?

[redobit]

But its only a new season in the scenario you're creating, is that too hard for you to get? You can't set an arbitrary date on making it a new season just because... You still haven't put forward a single argument as to why it would be unfair to count games already played, "it just would" isn't one.

Especially when the new season starts before the original one would have ended. If Rovers are playing a game on October 23rd be that Shels or someone else why should it be a new season when it's the exact same thing that would have happened in the season as is?

.

Its a fairly straightforward approach ... at the start of a season all clubs plan for a full series of games, not half a series of games. That's a fact, there is no disputing that. If you are going to the extreme of dismantling a season by shortening it in half or whatever then you are moving completely away from the what clubs have planned for. Clubs are entitled to and should be given the chance to find their best position based on the number of games they were told would happen at the beginning of the season. By taking away a couple of series of games that plan is gone and you have moved the goal posts too far and need to start again, that's all I'm saying. You may not like it cause it dose not suit you but there is validating too it.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Its a fairly straightforward approach ... at the start of a season all clubs plan for a full series of games, not half a series of games. That's a fact, there is no disputing that. If you are going to the extreme of dismantling a season by shortening it in half or whatever then you are moving completely away from the what clubs have planned for. Clubs are entitled to and should be given the chance to find their best position based on the number of games they were told would happen at the beginning of the season. By taking away a couple of series of games that plan is gone and you have moved the goal posts too far and need to start again, that's all I'm saying. You may not like it cause it dose not suit you but there is validating too it.

You're just going in circles here trying to find a way to justify the best scenario for Sligo so I'm gonna just leave you to it.