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Thread: Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    There is a balance to be had of course but a health service needs its admin sections functioning along with clinical departments or it will cease to function. There is a community risk to those admin staff even if at home as it is a pandemic and if stay at home guidelines were cover protection we wouldnt be worrying about vaccines But if people have been vaccinated who are over suspended clinics and havent been allocated to a functioning department then yes questions need to be asked. If all admin staff at the Department of Health were vaccinated then that is a big story. The Beacon Hospital incident was a disgusting incident and decision by Beacon management, there may have been some rationale if it were a local school but its was blatant abuse of position and so their service and the large amount of money that went with was quickly suspended. It may seem disproportionate or 'noise' but it was a deterrent to others. Who hand picked 20 of their teaching staff and why would be interesting and it has seriously undermined a lot of staff in that school so I hope they reap what theyve sown.



    I have no particular Grá for the HSE, a very close family member needed multiple amputations as a result of negligence post partum, I have limited experience working directly for the HSE but it was enough - I have witnessed patient records being adjusted after a clinical incident, reported it, watched the behaviour after, and why i never wanted to work with the HSE regardless of how convenient it might have been. But at the same time they are something of a patsy for adverse incidents in the country. I can assure you that the HSE is no more open to errors than the NHS or even the excellently funded French health system. I can see why people would be frustrated by what is apparent delays in implementing protocols but everything in healthcare is evidence driven and it has to be! The example of masks, at face value (pardon the pun) it made sense, but consideration had to be given on whether masks could be riskier fomites, create vectors themselves, would people feel protected and drop their guard so masking up could worsen the situation. We didnt know what standard of mask was needed earlier days, with a worldwide shortage of PPE could you redirect masks away from frontline staff. Id be pretty sure looking back that any mask directive happened as supplies improved otherwise the lack of supplies can cause panic and not everyone is as rational as us LoI fans. Covering coughs by coughing in to an elbow is less about suppressing viral spread of the cough and more about not touching the face and surroundings with hands that may carry the virus (coughing in to the hand would make things a whole lot worse but our parents woudnt have known that until the evidence mounted that it was a cause of infection in itself but subtle adjustment to the elbow was better). People wearing gloves would be a disaster as the research showed that people rarely changed glove, forgot about them, never washed hands and continued to touch the face with the gloves in some belief that the gloves themselves didnt become contaminated. I have heard similar commets on the use of masks and gloves, but evidence based data eventually showed that there was an overall benefit to wearing masks, but an overall risk to wearing gloves. It takes time and not time that some people have, but you cant implement policy without the weight of evidence - otherwise a whole load of us would be suffering liver condition after popping hydroxychloroquine, I drug that I would have expected to have some net benefit tbh until the evidence suggested otherwise. If policy dictated the use of masks and evidence subsequently show little impact then the issue would be about govt concern on optics and unnecessarily wasting resources, Damed if you do damned if you dont.

    Claims of Tony Holohan becoming power hungry and wasnt letting go, loving the limelight etc was unfair, considering his wifes health during their crisis. I have yet to see where NPHET have gone badly wrong and indeed it was not heeding their advice kickstarted this wave and subsequent lockdown. I think an independent enquiry in to the overall management of an unprecedented public health emergency in due course would just be good practice but not with undertones or accusations of sub par performance. If that is the case then it will be identified of not then credit where credit is due. Cartels? or coordinated strategy, consultation and joined up thinking? The breaking of rank between Govt and NPHET, where finger pointing started and undermined public confidence will be identified as failed moment and the start of this current extended lockdown, Vaccine rollout - well if the Germans, Canadians, French have difficulty as major biopharma hubs, its indicative of problems in international supply chains more than local rollout. Maybe we should have broke ranks with the EU and had a joint strategy with the UK?? We'd probably be further along with early vaccination - but id still rather be part of a 27 country bloc of 500mil people going forward than in the UK's situation. This is simply as there is a long long way to go on covid-19, AZ vaccines are drying up, questions on rates of efficacy and side effects and it very likely to be less adaptable to variants - but like everything else that will be a wait an see. The showing up of variants from India in the UK that are of much more concern than the UK and Brazil variants, coupled with the over enthusiastic lifting of restrictions where people have gathered in large number eg London's West End, could completely undo the progress mad there. Its frustrating for sure but evidence based, sure footed progress, is going to trump the race to claim to have been the saviour of a nation to save a political career. Time will tell and im finding it odd that booster jabs for NHS staff are already being scheduled and if you have one type of vaccine, prior to Christmas it will be another vaccine given.

    Are you sure that the changes to AZ protocols were made without knowledge of improved supplies from Pfizer pending?!

    Its all been a sh1tshow but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater! As a people, historically, we have little reason to trust those in power, elected or privilaged, but not all that are trying to navigate through this as quickly as is deemed responsible, are malevolent, self serving types, out to get one over the masses!!!
    No gra for HSE and you then go on with above tome to defend the indefensible - facts are Paul Reid when questioned by Claire Byrne and Paul Cullen from the Irish Times has continuously refused to answer the question as to how many HSE staff that weren’t entitled to be vaccinated have been and if he was aware of that then his position is untenable and if he wasn’t aware of it until journalists pointed it out again his position is untenable - then again we have one of the highest funded public health systems in the world that was already dysfunctional pre pandemic so no real surprise

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    I dont have to love Shamrock Rovers to recognise that recently they got more right than wrong, but are not infallible either!

    People get tunnel vision when they see HSE and go on the offensive. What has been done poorly get focused on at the complete ignoring of what has done well. Balance is needed and a far more useful way to improvement that blanked and sweeping criticism. I though I explained some aspects of where there is a perception of tardiness and hove policy takes takes time, but also mentioning that have no vested interest or particular attachment to the HSE that drives my attempt to seek some balance and indeed if I let my personal experiences drive my opinion Id be angry at HSE car park attendants just because they are HSE. But my personal experience does cannot define an entire health system as rubbish.

    Things like 'one of highest dunded public health system in the world' get rolled out but it is per head of population and scale comes in to it too which is just a bit important. I dont praise any organisation absolutely, that thinking leads to complacency - anyone who says their the best are alread y going backwards. I am not blind to faults but likewise I dont think people should automatically feel obligated to grumble.

    I havent mentioned Paul Reid, he is the current public face that has more to do with PR than leading a service. I actually he is a relatively minor player in the grand scheme of all this though I doubt he would agree with that, clinical leads are making calls with some freedom as management is sidelined without major budgetary restrictions on covid response. But aside from his particular evasiveness, what are the issues you have with the overall response to this pandemic - be reasonable, keep context, single issues or personalities aside. What would you do different and how? Im not being smart here, its useful to know peoples perspectives as they will vary greatly. What would be your rationale on not vaccinating admin people of a health service eg?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I havent mentioned Paul Reid, he is the current public face that has more to do with PR than leading a service. I actually he is a relatively minor player in the grand scheme of all this though I doubt he would agree with that, clinical leads are making calls with some freedom as management is sidelined without major budgetary restrictions on covid response. But aside from his particular evasiveness, what are the issues you have with the overall response to this pandemic - be reasonable, keep context, single issues or personalities aside. What would you do different and how? Im not being smart here, its useful to know peoples perspectives as they will vary greatly. What would be your rationale on not vaccinating admin people of a health service eg?
    Paul Reid is paid €420k a year to quite literally run the HSE. This is in itself a scandal, but if he's on that money as basically a glorified PRO then it's one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state!

    The reality is that the HSE is an absolute mess - probably at least partially by design so as to justify and enable the further privatization of healthcare provision in the country. It's a bloated basket case of bureaucracy with layers upon layers of managers earning big money while the actual operational functions of the organization are chronically under-staffed, under-resourced and utterly unfit for purpose. It's a microcosm of our broken society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
    Paul Reid is paid €420k a year to quite literally run the HSE. This is in itself a scandal, but if he's on that money as basically a glorified PRO then it's one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state!

    The reality is that the HSE is an absolute mess - probably at least partially by design so as to justify and enable the further privatization of healthcare provision in the country. It's a bloated basket case of bureaucracy with layers upon layers of managers earning big money while the actual operational functions of the organization are chronically under-staffed, under-resourced and utterly unfit for purpose. It'sa microcosm of our broken society.
    Hello there Mary Lou!

    I have no issue with your opinion on Reid's salary, or some subsequent points but CJ mentioned above being one of the best resourced health services in the world so is it under resourced?

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    Things seem to be straying off topic.

    https://foot.ie/threads/254905-Covid-19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I dont have to love Shamrock Rovers to recognise that recently they got more right than wrong, but are not infallible either!

    People get tunnel vision when they see HSE and go on the offensive. What has been done poorly get focused on at the complete ignoring of what has done well. Balance is needed and a far more useful way to improvement that blanked and sweeping criticism. I though I explained some aspects of where there is a perception of tardiness and hove policy takes takes time, but also mentioning that have no vested interest or particular attachment to the HSE that drives my attempt to seek some balance and indeed if I let my personal experiences drive my opinion Id be angry at HSE car park attendants just because they are HSE. But my personal experience does cannot define an entire health system as rubbish.

    Things like 'one of highest dunded public health system in the world' get rolled out but it is per head of population and scale comes in to it too which is just a bit important. I dont praise any organisation absolutely, that thinking leads to complacency - anyone who says their the best are alread y going backwards. I am not blind to faults but likewise I dont think people should automatically feel obligated to grumble.

    I havent mentioned Paul Reid, he is the current public face that has more to do with PR than leading a service. I actually he is a relatively minor player in the grand scheme of all this though I doubt he would agree with that, clinical leads are making calls with some freedom as management is sidelined without major budgetary restrictions on covid response. But aside from his particular evasiveness, what are the issues you have with the overall response to this pandemic - be reasonable, keep context, single issues or personalities aside. What would you do different and how? Im not being smart here, its useful to know peoples perspectives as they will vary greatly. What would be your rationale on not vaccinating admin people of a health service eg?
    1. Paul Reid is Head of HSE so book stops with him.
    2. Too many admin’ staff in proportion to medical stafff sucking up a huge amount of the budget - thanks Mary Harney
    3. Admin staff working from home or offices where there is no public contacts is wrong - and Reid has already accepted that publicly but refuses to provide numbers and that’s the issue
    4. Front line staff are ‘saints’ and have shown the true meaning of ‘ public service’ unlike the teachers Union leadership who are a disgrace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calcio Jack View Post
    1. Paul Reid is Head of HSE so book stops with him.
    No judgement, and maybe this was a typo anyway, but people often learn idioms like this verbally: it's buck, like a mule bucks a rider, or you buck a trend. The buck stops with the head of the organisation, yeah.
    Covid-negative, maybe; I haven't checked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John83 View Post
    No judgement, and maybe this was a typo anyway, but people often learn idioms like this verbally: it's buck, like a mule bucks a rider, or you buck a trend. The buck stops with the head of the organisation, yeah.
    No worries I’m sure I’ve seen it written a zillion times but never copped the correct spelling ( buck as in a dollar actually makes sense as in “... he earns the big bucks..”)

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    So the vast majority of issues is with Paul Reid the individual and his playing of politics. He is calling it wrong to not state that all HSE staff have been vaccinated even if working from home. Done to protect the service as a whole and not as individuals. I mentioned the issues for that Bray school with this in mind, how serious problems will have been caused in that school by cherry picking people to vaccinate. If vaccinating any non clinical HSE staff you end up doing the all as the alternative is cherry picking staff, favouritism, potential claims of bullying, discrimination, unfair dismissal etc, crop up with absenteeism. Im sure we agree that clerical staff at Grade 3 are the bedrock of keeping things moving for the service, the biggest cohort too. How do you chose, draw lots maybe risking losing the best of your clerical team not vaccinating across the service land leave poor morale with those not vaccinated, that impacts on how a the service functions too. vaccinate management as they must be very important and its reflected in their pay??? We all know that would be bull****. Agree or disagree Paul Reid could and should use this rational and give up the figures. But there are reasons that clerical staff were vaccinated even when working from home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    So the vast majority of issues is with Paul Reid the individual and his playing of politics. He is calling it wrong to not state that all HSE staff have been vaccinated even if working from home. Done to protect the service as a whole and not as individuals. I mentioned the issues for that Bray school with this in mind, how serious problems will have been caused in that school by cherry picking people to vaccinate. If vaccinating any non clinical HSE staff you end up doing the all as the alternative is cherry picking staff, favouritism, potential claims of bullying, discrimination, unfair dismissal etc, crop up with absenteeism. Im sure we agree that clerical staff at Grade 3 are the bedrock of keeping things moving for the service, the biggest cohort too. How do you chose, draw lots maybe risking losing the best of your clerical team not vaccinating across the service land leave poor morale with those not vaccinated, that impacts on how a the service functions too. vaccinate management as they must be very important and its reflected in their pay??? We all know that would be bull****. Agree or disagree Paul Reid could and should use this rational and give up the figures. But there are reasons that clerical staff were vaccinated even when working from home.
    Bottom line is that individuals were knowingly given the vaccine under his watch when they shouldn’t have - so a defence of it being “... for the greater good...” is just deflection plus HSE/Reid had no right to make that call- the more I hear on this the more untenable his position is and he’s some neck going on the radio and criticising the Beacon CEO ( albeit he deserves it) anyway I’ll leave it there as way off topic
    Last edited by Calcio Jack; 16/04/2021 at 6:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    I have every sympathy for his PRIVATE situation but do believe he and most of the guys at the top of the HSE are the best possible illustration of the Peter Principle where everyone is promoted until they reach their level of incompetence.

    Fair play to you btw for speaking out when you saw records altered , its always easier to look away particularly in collegiate type of settings
    I do see incompetence due to the nature of internal job appointments in management, less so in clinical leadership and Tony Holohon is certainly competent. Conversely the performance of Reid is being questioned and maybe with good reason but he is one person in the overall decision making process. His failings should not be deemed as widespread failings. We will have a very different HSE after all this anyway so will be an opportunity to restructure the organisation.

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    I think your being optimistic that the HSE will be different going forward , led by the likes of Reid who didnt exactly shine in the private sector.

    Hope your right but unless they put competant people in at the top i think its unlikely.

    How long has Holohan been off at this stage?

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    HSE and the agenciesit funds,is made up of over 100,000 staff.
    The tiny number of staff at the point of the salary pyramid are paid multiples of salary compared to staff who keep the service ticking along.Clerical admin, doing boring stuff like updating medical records, lab assistants getting the assays right to allow for accurate diagnosis, Porters and reception staff trying to calmly deal with upset patients and relatives.When you take a cut at the "HSE" you are also taking a cut at those low paid staff.
    Paul Reid, Stephen Donnelly, Robert Watt will sail majestically on to the next gig, leaving those staff plus of course the well regarded and well paid health professionals to pick up the pieces.

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    The likes of Watt sum it up, his "post" when he was temporarily covering was increased by 80k with the justification to bring in the best people , then they give it to him anyway....did they think he was about to leave LOL .
    Most of the top guys in the HSE are basically failed private sector guys or career civil servants that get promotion based on seniority not ability.,

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    https://www.extratime.com/articles/2...his-situation/

    This is unreal who does he think he is Ollie Byrne

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    Bizarre interview in the Donald Trump style of deflecting blame.

    1. Cabo aren't a big club.

    2. Cabo signed up to the same rules as every other club.

    3. Three players in the squad have the virus. How were only two players deemed close contacts to these three players?

    4. You had nearly thirty players available to play against Utd, just as they were available to play against UCD.

    5. Cabo let Galway Utd travel all the way to Dublin before telling them the game was off.

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    They were idiots for not playing, rules were clear

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    The likes of Watt sum it up, his "post" when he was temporarily covering was increased by 80k with the justification to bring in the best people , then they give it to him anyway....did they think he was about to leave LOL .
    Most of the top guys in the HSE are basically failed private sector guys or career civil servants that get promotion based on seniority not ability.,
    sbgawa, Seniority was abolished years ago, not saying some of these lads didn't get it that way years ago, but it doesn't exist anymore, but I'm in the service over 20 years and have seen some shocking appointments, so regardless appointments could be better

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    officially abolished but not in reality.
    Watts salary increase will cost the taxpayers 2 million or thereabouts by the time he retires and another million or so after he retires in pension payments.
    But hes agreed to defer for 6 months or a year....what a laugh.

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    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56805604

    Despite the fact that 'the Republic of Ireland has one of Europe's lowest incidence rates of Covid-19'.

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