An Daingean

[pineapple stu]

Anyone see the "article" in the Mirror about Dingle's name change to An Daingean on Friday? Only saw it there today - in a new low for tabloid journalism, they actually got an American to comment! "Go there? I can't even pronounce it" A persuasive argument there! Then someone else (some minister, actually!) said that it was silly changing the name to Irish because foreigners don't speak Irish. Funny that - I don't speak French but had to find my way around Paris last October without complaining! Sad to see what pathetic excuses "educated" people (and Americans ) will come up with and our newspapers will give column inches to.

I'd dsay fair dues to Ó Cúiv (was it?) - would love to see more places in Ireland doing this.

[Poor Student]

What is the reason for the change, other than the fact it has its own Irish name?

[Éanna]

If it's in the Gaeltacht, then it should have its name in Irish. No reason why not.

[hamish]

Is that story true about some Yank who went round Cork City asking the way to Cob H??
Up here it's usually Atl ONE they ask for.
On a serious note, it's a fact that English is the daily language for most of us, sad but true so signs with both Irish and English makes sense.
In France, they speak the mother tongue and don't have another language to, for want of a better term, compete with.
They have their problems too with English. Isn't there a new law in France which has banned terms like "Le weekend" etc etc etc from the airwaves.

[Poor Student]

If it's in the Gaeltacht, then it should have its name in Irish. No reason why not.

Is it? I didn't realise. Are most of its inhabitants Gaeilge speakers?

[Poor Student]

Is that story true about some Yank who went round Cork City asking the way to Cob H??
Up here it's usually Atl ONE they ask for.
On a serious note, it's a fact that English is the daily language for most of us, sad but true so signs with both Irish and English makes sense.
In France, they speak the mother tongue and don't have another language to, for want of a better term, compete with.
They have their problems too with English. Isn't there a new law in France which has banned terms like "Le weekend" etc etc etc from the airwaves.

Yes, I think the French have tried to prevent the language from absorbing Anglicised terms to keep the language pure. This usually works against languages. One of the successes of English has been its adaptiveness. It has a wide range of words absorbed from all sources.

[Éanna]

Is it? I didn't realise. Are most of its inhabitants Gaeilge speakers?

Couldn't tell you the population breakdown but it is definitely in the Gaeltacht alright.

[Poor Student]

Couldn't tell you the population breakdown but it is definitely in the Gaeltacht alright.

Yeah but at this stage I am not sure what that means these days. Places are happy to be in the Gaeltacht and take the funding but I think the primacy of Irish in them is in decline so possibly changing a name like this is an empty gesture.

[dcfcsteve]

What is wrong with making Dingle's official name the version that it is in the official language of this island ?

What's the point in having it as 'Dingle' on maps, and then only 'An Daingean' on signposts when you're in the Gaeltacht ? Makes much more practical sense - especially to people like toursists who don't understand that there's 2 names and they may differ widely - to have just a single official name. Ans as An Daingean is a Gaeltacht town, it makes sense that the one singlke name used should be the Irish version. The rights of the people there to call it what the want should be respected. After all, it's their town....

Was there tabloid uproar when Dunleary was formalised back to Dun Laoghaire ? What about Kells reverting back to - shock horror - the completely unprounounceable 'Ceanannus Mor' ! Find me a yank who can spell THAT.... !

Bring back Canstantinople, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Bombay and Ayers Rock. Feck what the people who actually live in any of those places think - it's all about making life easier for tourists.....!

[Philo]

There are two official languages in Ireland - Irish is the first and English is the second. All official documents and forms etc must be available in both languages. Similarly with place names, they all have English and Irish versions. Dingle was always called An Daingean, it just depends on which language is being spoken. Pointless though, if you ask me, as the Irish language is little more than a museum piece at this stage.

As for France, it does have other languages, such as Breton and Provencale and these languages are used alongside French in the relevant regions.

[Éanna]

Sorry for going off topic, but Philo- any idea where that photo of peadar in the Bohs jersey can be found- he's claiming it doesn't exist

[Peadar]

any idea where that photo of peadar in the Bohs jersey can be found

There's some serious conspiracy going on here!

See this article about placenames.

[Philo]

Neil Mulvey took the picture of Peadar wearing a Bohs jersey in my car on the way down to Cork about 4 years ago. It definitely exists.

I'll ask Neil for the pic on Friday night.

[Peadar]

I'll ask Neil for the pic on Friday night.

Seriously though Philo, it doesn't need to see the light of day again.

[Jim Smith]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of Irish here but would the different dialects of Irish have different ways of spelling place names? I'm thinking in particular of Donegal Irish which seems to be quite distinct. Perhaps the oral pronunciation is what differs? The reason I ask is that if there is a differentiation which dialect takes precedence or is there an official "Dublin Irish". Which dialect would be used on official government documentation? If I was arrested in Donegal could I insist on being charged in "proper Irish" rather than Donegal Irish?

I'm not trying to wind anyone up here, I'm genuinely curious.

[dcfcsteve]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of Irish here but would the different dialects of Irish have different ways of spelling place names? I'm thinking in particular of Donegal Irish which seems to be quite distinct. Perhaps the oral pronunciation is what differs? The reason I ask is that if there is a differentiation which dialect takes precedence or is there an official "Dublin Irish". Which dialect would be used on official government documentation? If I was arrested in Donegal could I insist on being charged in "proper Irish" rather than Donegal Irish?

I'm not trying to wind anyone up here, I'm genuinely curious.

Jim - there is no 'queen's Irish', if you'll excuse the comparison.

There are 3 dialects of Irish - Ulster, Munster and Connacht. Of the 3, the Ulster version differs the most form the other 2 - primarily in its use of certain phrases/words (e.g. The different versions of 'How are you' being classic examples). However, all 3 are mutually intelligible and the diffrences between them are known to Irish speakers. It's just like the way Americans use certain words and phrases differently than English people do.

My understanding (though I could well be wrong) is that place names would be spelt consistently across the dialects - as the type of words involved in Irish place names (e.g. tree, rock, hill, bridge, new, oak, town etc) do not tend to differ across the dialects. Regardless - if a Donegal town name DID had a different spelling in its Ulster dialect than an identically named town in Kerry in the Munster dialect, then the obvious thing to do would be to just use the spellling of the names from their own local dialects. Ulster dialect spelling for placenames in Ulster, Munster dialect spelling for place names in Munster etc.

The key problem, of course, is that a proper centralised version of Irish was never introduced and enforced back when it was still a countrywide language. That's the problem, I guess, when you don't run your own country and you've more issues with the language being surpressed, let alone standardised....

[Jim Smith]

dcfcsteve,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Its strange the things that can occupy your mind at times...

Jim - there is no 'queen's Irish', if you'll excuse the comparison.

I deliberately stayed away from that expression

[pineapple stu]

In France, they speak the mother tongue and don't have another language to, for want of a better term, compete with.

Just on the French thing - my point was that yer man effectively said foreigners wouldn't be able to read the signs if they were in our language, so they shouldn't be changed. But every other country in Europe has signs in their own language, so yer man's argument is ridiculous, and to give it an airing in a national "newspaper" is a joke.

Pointless though, if you ask me, as the Irish language is little more than a museum piece at this stage.

It is with that attitude anyway! Fortunately, it seems more and more young people are being brought up bilingual, which is great to see. Look at the progress Welsh has made in recent years - no reason we can't do the same with Irish.

Was there tabloid uproar when Dunleary was formalised back to Dún Laoghaire ? What about Kells reverting back to - shock horror - the completely unprounounceable 'Ceanannus Mór'!

On that note, I've passed by a few road signs for Newbridge which have "Newbridge" covered over in duck tape, just leaving "Droichead Nua". You'll see that on maps as well. Have they changed their name too or what's the story there? Heard as well that Navan was always "An Uaimh" until some American sent a letter there (misspelling the name completely) and complained when it didn't turn up. Don't know how much truth is in that.

Isn't there a new law in France which has banned terms like "Le weekend" etc etc etc from the airwaves?

Think so, yeah. Didn't they go and remove Anglicisations from their language, and limit the amount of English-language music on the radio as well? They're completely right of course (in my opinion), which makes it all the more annoying the way they're forcing their culture on everyone else (particularly us and GB) through the EU... Postcodes, kilometres, 112 for emergencies...!

[pete]

Seen an article on this in sunday paper & is the height of muppetry.

Local Dingle people actually want the name changed back to english.
Tourists don't have a clue where or what An Daingean is.
Apparently An Daingean is relatively common around the country whereas theres only 1 Dingle.

Its great making the irish language more inclusive but this is just tokenism but wouldn't expect any better from O'Cuiv - paper siad he dropped the O for his election name to get higher on the ballet

it would be great to use irish but because Dingle is so well known by tourists would be stupid to change at this stage.

[Green Tribe]

Its great making the irish language more inclusive but this is just tokenism but wouldn't expect any better from O'Cuiv - paper siad he dropped the O for his election name to get higher on the ballet

.

into the ballet is he, oh that's nice.......