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Thread: Potential ramifications for LOI after todays FAI accounts debacle.

  1. #21
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    I think you are confused. Of course journalists couldn't ask questions at an AGM. They were only given special dispensation to be in the room to report on it. Though how they were coralled and prevented with interacting with reps was wrong, but nothing to stop them interviewing reps away from an AGM. The membership, including the LOI reps are and were fully entitled to raise questions, it is their meeting.
    You are undoubtedly very knowledgeable on football matters north and south Mr P. Probably the most significant issue for senior clubs was that the junior and schools delegates held control of FAI Council. This Delaney powerbase was born out of the ability to throw money around to purchase votes. Reform couldnt happen as for JD and co that would like a turkey voting for christmas.
    Reform was proposed as far back as the Genesis Report but the bits that may have made a difference were never implemented - there are probably a number of similar reports that have gathered dust over the years. The fact that LoI clubs held a minority at AGMs Council, Board, meant a situation developed where if the party line wasnt towed the club suffered usually via the rejecting of grant applications.
    I would go as far as JD being the person responsible for the forensic examination of Dundalk FC player registrations after the 2012 play-off win over Delaneys club Waterford Utd - Dundalk didnt do anything but it is an example of the lengths he would go to to manipulate even results on the pitch. Thankfully our club secretary is a very competant individual and wouldnt have made any error.
    The fear factor was significant enough for people to keep their powder dry until one day dogdey John would get greedy, complacent and end up fooking up. I would question the stomach of media editors who balked at every threat of litigation and pulled investigative writing that would have brought the FAI house of cards down years earlier.
    FFS he tried to bully the British press after his rebel song embaressment - he was that arrogant!
    While no board should be as dysfunctional I believe that members were intimidated, they were broken up in to groups where information was controlled and a whole board was never privy to all information. Delaney saw how people were shafted in the quiet corners of Merrion Square and even made sure that Abbotstown was designed as openplan and meetingrooms partitioned in glass and all within view of the CEOs glass cubicle.
    Its all tip of the iceberg also and we dont have a record of punishing white collar crime in this country if Delaney has been shown to have misapporpriated money or even just evaded tax on his benefits in kind
    Last edited by Nesta99; 08/12/2019 at 7:34 PM.

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  5. #23
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Realistically too, the Council's power is limited enough outside of supporting JD. It's entirely reasonable, for example, for them to take the auditors' word that the books of account are correct.

    The board have less cover here as one of the adjusting items made here was due to an extra contract (or two?) which Delaney was awarded and which was hidden from the auditors (and presumably Council). But who gave him that contract? It would have to have been the board - or a subcommittee of it.

    The other issue then is the personal expenses. This is where the Finance Director and the auditors would come under more pressure for their involvement - but why weren't the board reviewing and signing off the CEO's expenses? This would be standard corporate governance.

    This is also going a way off topic btw; maybe worth a split?
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 08/12/2019 at 6:51 PM.

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    It really galls me that out of every euro that clubs will be now giving to the FAI in fees fines etc a substantial portion of it will be going to cover whatever package the association can agree with its funders. let it go start again fcuk the FAI

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  9. #25
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    In nearly all elected executives there is a vulnerability due to the need of a GM/CEO/General Secretary/Civil Servant to report and inform a board in a transparent and honest manner. These people certainly drive agendas on organisations policy on how they frame info given to an executive group. It wouldnt be a push to say that the level of control, deception and even an employee (CEO) holding a vote on an elected body is unprecedented. Des Casey introduced ruleS that limited the number of terms an elected board member served after the scandals of the 90s but funnily enough this was removed subsequently. Subcommittees were told what to report back to the board so many, especially the non cronys, were in the dark. Finances are different of course and thats where suspicion that alls not well should arise but we saw the performance of the honarary tresurer in not even knowing how many bank accounts that were held. Will there be an investigation in to the false auditing that was carried out, signed off and filed?? Serious ethical question need to be asked of the large auditor in question.

    I have spent a good bit of time on elected boards in the past and ye can tell an employee is holding back - usually as they are protecting the elected board from themselves when decisions can be made emotionally rather than with financial prudence. It's ironic that the witholding of info here was to protect self interests with a complete disregard for the health of the organisation. Ive said it before but Delaney must suffer ummm a 'personality disorder' for such showing the level arrogance that Believed he would never be caught, that he was smarter than everyone else, that he was entitled to 'steal' all this cause he was doing such a good job - lies on a CV, calculated manipulation of the CEO salary before he shafted the the former CEO to get the job himself and the beans that went with. Purchasing support and creating the John the Baptist persona, crying on national media over 'bullying' when this mostly was calling things out. Its all a sad indicment on the values some people in roles of repsonsibility in this country - maybe he could become a running mate of the Healy-Raes in the next GE....
    Last edited by Nesta99; 08/12/2019 at 7:31 PM.

  10. #26
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Finances are different of course and thats where suspicion that alls not well should arise but we saw the performance of the honarary tresurer in not even knowing how many bank accounts that were held. Will there be an investigation in to the false auditing that was carried out, signed off and filed?? Serious ethical question need to be asked of the large auditor in question.
    The auditor issue is interesting alright. I know from experience that an audit can often be worth **** all, especially if a Director or a Finance person is conspiring to hide stuff.

    That's the extent here to a degree too. There's probably nothing the auditors could have done about the hidden contracts. They seem not to have been in the accounts at all, and maybe only came to light when Delaney was being booted out, and he claimed what he was due under existing contracts.

    The sponsorship deal which seems to have been recognised in full in its first year, and which has since been pulled resulting in an adjustment to income now, may well have just fallen through the cracks as an audit doesn't - can't - examine everything. Maybe only some deals were spot-checked and found to be in order; that's the nature of an audit. Bit of a risk from the FAI if so.

    The expenses though - the size and scale of them does seem to be more concerning. Again, an audit will only spot check items - but surely the law of averages means a couple of the dodgy expenses would have been found. Then it becomes something you can dig into.

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    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I would question the stomach of media editors who balked at every threat of litigation and pulled investigative writing that would have brought the FAI house of cards down years earlier.
    FFS he tried to bully the British press after his rebel song embaressment - he was that arrogant!
    Good man Nesta. I really think this is overlooked. There are are a lot of people scrambling the last 9 months to get on Tighe and Rowan's coat-tails.
    That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    Good man Nesta. I really think this is overlooked. There are are a lot of people scrambling the last 9 months to get on Tighe and Rowan's coat-tails.
    Libel laws are that draconian in this country that media organisations almost always have no choice but to curb these types of investigations as they have little or no chance of winning any cases that are taken against them.

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Libel Laws in most countries require the burden of evidence on the media outlet to back up its story but there is a fatigue on the amount of reporting (super) injunctions being heard, in the UK especially. There is enough to suggest that any editor that called Delaney's bluff would have been on to a major story a decade ago. Journalists the length of the counrty have been sitting on stories that they wanted to publish and i'd be sure with the many quality ones we have they'd have believed that they could stand over their work legally. Lets not lose sight that JD made his usualy play and abused the family court system to try and gag Mark Tighe. Delaney thought a late submission to the court would be out of left field for the paper but they managed to state their case and the judge probably anxious to get home, late on a weekend evening wasnt in the mood for petty BS. When he threatened legalities on Britsh media and they laughed it was then that Irish media reported extensively on the topic. Besides there's no shortage of footage showing him acting irreesponsibly for the position he held - if they had pushed him on that he'd have pushed back and the fun would have at least started back then.

  14. #30
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    I would imagine, like in the IFA and other national associations, little if any grants come out of their own pocket, but rather are monies being distributed from UEFA, Sports Ireland, etc pots. Any attempt to deny money entitled to clubs would have seen those and similar bodies impose sanctions on the FAI.
    A word in the right ear at the Department of Sport or where-ever and your project could be dead in the water. You may never even know what really happened. Just a hint that all wasn't right at such and such a club and suddenly there may be a great reluctance to allocate or release money. The threat was absolutely there that if clubs rocked the boat they'd be made to suffer. For example, I know forum posts by supporters were brought up at licensing meetings. It's madness of course.. but the implication was clear- keep your people under control. And very few of the clubs have been in a strong enough position to stand up and fight back- sometimes the ones with backers would have that confidence but the sad fact is they had something to hold over most of us. While I was very frustrated that FHFC only found a voice in recent times, I can absolutely understand why it was viewed as safer to keep the heads down.

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  16. #31
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    A word in the right ear at the Department of Sport or where-ever and your project could be dead in the water. You may never even know what really happened. Just a hint that all wasn't right at such and such a club and suddenly there may be a great reluctance to allocate or release money. The threat was absolutely there that if clubs rocked the boat they'd be made to suffer. For example, I know forum posts by supporters were brought up at licensing meetings. It's madness of course.. but the implication was clear- keep your people under control. And very few of the clubs have been in a strong enough position to stand up and fight back- sometimes the ones with backers would have that confidence but the sad fact is they had something to hold over most of us. While I was very frustrated that FHFC only found a voice in recent times, I can absolutely understand why it was viewed as safer to keep the heads down.
    So too many people, more concerned with their own self-interest? Such a culture begins in a small way, and obviously was allowed to fester. It should have been nipped in the bud, but obviously wasn't, most likely for the reason given in my first sentence. Therefore there is potential culpability for where things stand today.

    However, while you indicate that 'a quiet word' could potentially scupper funding, such public bodies have checks and balances in place to prevent manipulation. Had a club felt victim of such, then a challenge could have been made.

    Interesting that you mention Licensing and the pressures brought on some to say nothing, does that indicate that process to be questionable too? I did mention this in the thread discussing the AIL and exampled a couple of unqualified managers, yet licences were granted. Are you suggesting that their silence was bought off on the basis of licenses being granted?

    Could it be argued that the LOI/clubs may have questions to answer as part of this debacle too, and/or that as the various investigations start to drill down, some unpleasant truths may come to light at club level?

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    Banned marinobohs's Avatar
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    The FAI basket case will be toxic for a long time, possibly irredeemable.
    There must be two separate strands to this (1) accounting for the past and (2) the future of Irish football. 2 cannot afford to wait until 1 concludes especially with AGS action involved.
    On the plus side it is a chance to bypass some of the dinosaurs holding back Irish football and a blank canvas for restructuring the game here. Not what anyone would want but it is an opportunity

  18. #33
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    So too many people, more concerned with their own self-interest? Such a culture begins in a small way, and obviously was allowed to fester. It should have been nipped in the bud, but obviously wasn't, most likely for the reason given in my first sentence. Therefore there is potential culpability for where things stand today.

    However, while you indicate that 'a quiet word' could potentially scupper funding, such public bodies have checks and balances in place to prevent manipulation. Had a club felt victim of such, then a challenge could have been made.

    Interesting that you mention Licensing and the pressures brought on some to say nothing, does that indicate that process to be questionable too? I did mention this in the thread discussing the AIL and exampled a couple of unqualified managers, yet licences were granted. Are you suggesting that their silence was bought off on the basis of licenses being granted?

    Could it be argued that the LOI/clubs may have questions to answer as part of this debacle too, and/or that as the various investigations start to drill down, some unpleasant truths may come to light at club level?
    Self interest perhaps unfair.. self preservation more appropriate I think. People believed that speaking up would make no difference. And there wasn't anything usable in writing.. people just knew the score. Don't forget that up until recently the Minister for Sport thought Delaney was a great lad.

    Should more clubs have stood up and called things out? Absolutely. Would it have made a difference? Hard to say.

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    When you are living hand to mouth like most LOI clubs its very hard to slap the hand that is feeding you.
    Self preservation is a better way of putting it for sure and best describes club football administrators who are trying to make sure the bus company and the ESB bills get paid.
    Its easy to condemn people who were more interested in paying their way locally then changing the world

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    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    Self interest perhaps unfair.. self preservation more appropriate I think. People believed that speaking up would make no difference. And there wasn't anything usable in writing.. people just knew the score. Don't forget that up until recently the Minister for Sport thought Delaney was a great lad.

    Should more clubs have stood up and called things out? Absolutely. Would it have made a difference? Hard to say.
    You can call it what you like, but it still amounts to the same thing in reality. Just because the minister thought he was a great lad, does not negate my point.

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    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    When you are living hand to mouth like most LOI clubs its very hard to slap the hand that is feeding you.
    Self preservation is a better way of putting it for sure and best describes club football administrators who are trying to make sure the bus company and the ESB bills get paid.
    Its easy to condemn people who were more interested in paying their way locally then changing the world
    In reality, how much did the FAI contribute to LOI clubs? Ie. Money that did not come from UEFA, local councils, Sport Ireland etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    In reality, how much did the FAI contribute to LOI clubs? Ie. Money that did not come from UEFA, local councils, Sport Ireland etc?
    Doesnt matter if the money came from UEFA or not it had to make its way through the FAI.
    All the funding from UEFA went into a big mixing pot in the FAI and whatever they decided to dole out to the clubs was the difference between paying the bills and not in many cases.
    Its easy to say it wasnt a lot for some clubs but if you dont have €500 to pay a local business you owe money too it might as well be 5000 as 500.....

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    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Doesnt matter if the money came from UEFA or not it had to make its way through the FAI.
    All the funding from UEFA went into a big mixing pot in the FAI and whatever they decided to dole out to the clubs was the difference between paying the bills and not in many cases.
    Its easy to say it wasnt a lot for some clubs but if you dont have €500 to pay a local business you owe money too it might as well be 5000 as 500.....
    No national association can withhold UEFA money ment for a specific purpose that LOI clubs are entitled to get, e.g. prize money and Solidarity payments. It doesn't go into a big pot.

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    I take back what I said about being knwoledgeable on football in the South. You do at least know that this all really kicked off when Dundalk went looking for a tranche of their European prizemoney and the FAI refused and started to dictate at timetable for possible paying on of the money. The 100k was partly at least to throw Dundalk a few quid to keep things sweet until the rest of the money could be gathered up.

    Licencing is flawed but rightly not always draconian eg with Vinny Perth doing his Pro Licence, this requirement covered by having a pro licence holder on the bench temorarily. Its gets daft when a planning application can cover stadia requirements.

    The payments you mention go in to seperate accounts yes, consider that the Honarary Tresurer didnt know what accounts the FAI held. Those specific accounts were dipped in to to cover more pressing running costs like the CEOs dinner, rent, 5k to clubs as he wished without checks and balances, salary, jobs for the (ex) girlfirends, cans for the supporters etc - ye know the important stuff...

    I do understand the doubts that you have Mr P, its is entirely unbelieveable. You are technically correct that everyone in Irish football has in some way contributed to all of this by keeping the heads down but higher up the foodchain attempts were made to intervene including by government PAC - did you see the contempt shown to the national parliment?? If they, including some of the no bs types, couldnt make any headway how could a bunch of clubs that have been starved to keep them weak and in check?

    In another country where white collar crime was taken seriously there would be a real prospect of time served for what has happened, alas I think the Garda investigation has happened due to scorned politicians in the PAC that want a piece of JD for his show of contempt - not that there is a 'crime' to be answered by the individual who used patsies to do his bidding and cover him. At best the underdeclaring of tax on his benefits in kind might mean pressure from the revenue - payment and fine! I hope that JD continues to stonewall and in his arrogant detatchment from reality damages himself some more and CAB and the task force set up get the bit between their teeth also.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 09/12/2019 at 4:01 PM.

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  26. #40
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Isn't that exactly what happened with Dundalk's European prize money?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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