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Thread: Shamrock Rovers entering a team in Div 1 next season

  1. #41
    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think the need for an U23 league is way overstated. It'd be utterly useless for UCD for example. Maybe allowing 2/3 overage players in the 19s league might help because the old reserve league did allow players not in the first team to keep match fitness.

    A proper underage structure is something pretty much every proper club in Europe has - for community development if nothing else - and I don't see how an U23 league could be considered more important than an U13 league.
    The old under 21 league that was the exact same a decade and a half back allowing a few overage first teamers to play for 21s. Why did they get rid of it? It was stupidity!
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArFella View Post
    I'm sure it's common enough in Europe but the one example that springs to mind is Spain where reserve teams often compete in the Segunda Division and Real Madrid's reserves actually won it once, there is a rule in place that prevents these sides gaining promotion, obviously, which I assume will be the case in this instance also.
    There are no B teams in Spain's Segunda Division. One hasn't won it for 2 decades either.

    Most of the Spanish B Teams kick in at the 3rd tier and below.

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    Still a valid example as that has only been the case since Barcelona and Sevillaís reserve teams were relegated together.

    I donít know on the whole idea. Spain, Germany and Holland are hardly bad examples to follow when it comes to youth development, although no obviously you canít just take any of their templates and transfer it on to Ireland.

    If the First Div needs a team and Rovers
    are happy to commit to providing one in the form of their B team I see no deal breaking argument against it .

    Why would it only be Rovers though, if for example Dundalk Pats and Cork all said they wanted to enter B teams in the first division - where would we go from there, how is that decision made?

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    Banned marinobohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Plenty of other leagues have under 23 teams that fullfill the same purpose and still loan out some players for actual match experience.
    People on here have been saying for years there is a need for a bridge between under 19's and first team so Rovers putting it in place can't be a bad idea??

    Are you having one of your angry days
    Shams doing it doesnít make it a good idea either 🤓 it wasnít the last time they tried it and they were happy to opt out pretty quickly.

    The fact no other club is looking to do it would indicate itís no revelation either. But hey, off you go.

    Are you having another of your bull**** days 😎
    Last edited by marinobohs; 04/12/2019 at 4:46 PM.

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    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think the need for an U23 league is way overstated. It'd be utterly useless for UCD for example. Maybe allowing 2/3 overage players in the 19s league might help because the old reserve league did allow players not in the first team to keep match fitness.

    A proper underage structure is something pretty much every proper club in Europe has - for community development if nothing else - and I don't see how an U23 league could be considered more important than an U13 league.
    A proper underage structure doesn't really start across Europe until 15/16 years of age. English clubs can't sign Irish players until they're 16 for example. They have development squads below under-17. There's nothing wrong with starting an underage structure at under-15s. If clubs want to go younger than that, it should be up to themselves to work with local leagues on that one.

    I think the gap between under-19 and senior is just too big. We're losing far too many players who aren't ready for first team action but are still worth keeping at clubs to develop for another year at 19.

    It's alright for UCD, who work with young players primarily. But other clubs don't have the luxury of offering scholarships and college football to the young players not ready for LOI action.

    The lack of a reserve league, or a level above under-19 is sorely lacking in the LOI. At least raising the 19's league to a 20's or 21's, and allowing for two overage players per game would massively help.

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    There are no B teams in Spain's Segunda Division. One hasn't won it for 2 decades either.

    Most of the Spanish B Teams kick in at the 3rd tier and below.
    Barcelona B were in it two years ago.

    It's common in leagues all across the world, never mind Europe. The USL pro, recognised as the second tier in America is full of MLS reserve sides and teams affiliated with MLS sides.

  6. #46
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    An under 13 league is a UEFA requirement, so they obviously disagree that development starts at 15.

    I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of an extra age group above 19s - though is the extra 25/30k worth it? - but I do disagree that it's clearly more valuable than an u13 league. I think Rovers are leading the way at the moment in showing the long-term benefit of a proper underage structure.

    Us offering scholarships has nothing to do with anything here btw. And lots of clubs have links with colleges to offer colleges football if they want

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCWA View Post
    Still a valid example as that has only been the case since Barcelona and Sevilla’s reserve teams were relegated together.

    I don’t know on the whole idea. Spain, Germany and Holland are hardly bad examples to follow when it comes to youth development, although no obviously you can’t just take any of their templates and transfer it on to Ireland.

    If the First Div needs a team and Rovers
    are happy to commit to providing one in the form of their B team I see no deal breaking argument against it .

    Why would it only be Rovers though, if for example Dundalk Pats and Cork all said they wanted to enter B teams in the first division - where would we go from there, how is that decision made?
    The fundamental difference is that if any La Liga B Teams end up in the Segunda Division, it's because they've been good enough to get there by winning their way up the pyramid.

    A Shamrock Rovers B Team would only be in the First Division of the LOI because no other teams wanted to join the league.

    The Spanish case is an example of footballing integrity and success. The Irish example is one of footballing failure.

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    The main reasons for the introduction of the under age leagues was to stream line elite football to make it more favourable for the underage international teams (ie Collie OíBrien could watch Cork U17 v Galway U17 to see the best players from each division)

    I think this is why the pathway finishes at U19. For example, if a player canít play first team in LOI at the age of 19-20, itís unlikely that heíll be good enough enough to play U21 or Senior for Ireland.

    The other side to this is that the cream of the crop always rises. Players that donít make the grade at Pats U19 go play for Longford / Athlone.

    Thereís more of a need to invest properly in the underage structure to tighten up the gaps for players moving from U13 to U15 when theyíre not ready than to bridge the gap from U19 to first team in my opinion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    The fundamental difference is that if any La Liga B Teams end up in the Segunda Division, it's because they've been good enough to get there by winning their way up the pyramid.

    A Shamrock Rovers B Team would only be in the First Division of the LOI because no other teams wanted to join the league.

    The Spanish case is an example of footballing integrity and success. The Irish example is one of footballing failure.
    We donít have a proper footballing pyramid however which allows for a team to get promoted into LOI 1st div therefore the only means of entry is via application. Therefore do we allow B teams to express an interest or apply or do we just say itís a closed shop to B teams? If we do that then surely if a club is keen enough it is open to manipulation in that they can hijack another local club to have their players playing at that level.

    I donít have strong feelings for or against really.

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    Banned marinobohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCWA View Post
    We donít have a proper footballing pyramid however which allows for a team to get promoted into LOI 1st div therefore the only means of entry is via application. Therefore do we allow B teams to express an interest or apply or do we just say itís a closed shop to B teams? If we do that then surely if a club is keen enough it is open to manipulation in that they can hijack another local club to have their players playing at that level.

    I donít have strong feelings for or against really.
    If ANY LOI club wants to apply, I have no problem just dont personally see the merit in it (gain V cost involved).
    One would like to think a full cost benefit analysis would be a pre requisite but this is LOI 😀

  11. #51
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    Still don't see why any club would want the money pit of a first Division team.
    Most clubs have difficulty keeping ONE team afloat never mind a FD vanity project.
    I don't fully see it myself but Rovers must see some value in it to do it again after the debacle the last time. I know Pats were put out the last time when they were told only Rovers could enter a team (which was wrong). If B teams are to be a thing in the FD, it has to be open to any club who can demonstrate they'll back it for 3+ years (and not abandon it after year one like Rovers).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I don't fully see it myself but Rovers must see some value in it to do it again after the debacle the last time. I know Pats were put out the last time when they were told only Rovers could enter a team (which was wrong). If B teams are to be a thing in the FD, it has to be open to any club who can demonstrate they'll back it for 3+ years (and not abandon it after year one like Rovers).
    Can only presume it's something to do with youth development side of things and good luck to them if it goes ahead, just can't see the value in it.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    Can only presume it's something to do with youth development side of things and good luck to them if it goes ahead, just can't see the value in it.
    In the absence of a proper reserve league I could see how it might work out for Rovers, in terms of keeping 19s who aren't ready for Premier football (ie Darragh O'Connor, who went to Wexford and is now at Leicester) but you'd imagine the only way it really works is if it gives players a bridge to the first team within six months. I suspect the reality might be that the FAI knew they'd be down a team next year and sent out an SOS call.

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    Reserves vinnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    In the absence of a proper reserve league I could see how it might work out for Rovers, in terms of keeping 19s who aren't ready for Premier football (ie Darragh O'Connor, who went to Wexford and is now at Leicester) but you'd imagine the only way it really works is if it gives players a bridge to the first team within six months. I suspect the reality might be that the FAI knew they'd be down a team next year and sent out an SOS call.
    So will Rovers get a nice Glamour Friendly in the summer for the trouble?

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  17. #55
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    Last time Rovers B came in it was because another club died.

    Depressing.
    Sometimes I hate being right.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

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    Thank God Rovers are entering a team now, a 9 team league with a 24 game season is to depressing to think about.
    Hopefully limerick and a n other team can get themselves organised for 2021 season it is nuts to think of limerick without a team in the loi

  19. #57
    First Team joey B's Avatar
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    Johnny Ward on Twitter saying the First division clubs have met and under no circumstances will a Rover's B team be in the First division next season......

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    Can they actually veto against a team or is this just a non-binding statement?

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    Seasoned Pro Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidewayspasser View Post
    Can they actually veto against a team or is this just a non-binding statement?
    Everything Johnny Ward tweets is a non-binding statement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    Everything Johnny Ward tweets is a non-binding statement
    Of course it is.
    What I meant was do the FD clubs have the right to block a new team by their veto, or can they only say "we don't want them" but have no real say in the matter?

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