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Thread: All-Ireland League Thread

  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    What's with the hyperbole? And comparisons with full-time UK clubs? Relax. It's a quite simple point made that's not too taxing on comprehension levels. The IL is concentrated to Belfast - the furthest away game is an hour or so away - fine for a semi-pro club and player, similar to the LSL. If an all-island league is the future, the addition of the top of the IL to an expanded LOI would be preferable imo rather than trying to accommodate a greater number of IL clubs into a structure that pars the IL and LOI.
    It may be a simple point, but it doesn't withstand scrutiny I'm afraid.

    Firstly - it's not only fulltime clubs in Britain that face long journeys. Look at Scotland's Fourth tier, where you have Annan on the English border playing Elgin and Cove at the other end of the country in the Highlands. The players seem to be able to cope with that, despite being only semi-pros.

    Regardless - the key point is this.

    There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.

    Also - the expectation is that an AIL would lead to more clubs turning professional anyway and there being more money in the league. Which would ease the burden of the travel on both clubs and players alike.

    So how would it be unreasonable to expect IL clubs to play in such a league, but it's OK for Derry, Cork and Harps to do so ? Obviously players and clubs would prefer to minimise their journey times. Who wouldn't in life. But if that is an over-riding priority, then it's a charity for mediocrity. Let everyone play in their own little local mini-leagues then and to hell with anything more than an hour or so away.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 26/05/2020 at 2:20 PM.

  2. #462
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    It may be a simple point, but it doesn't withstand scrutiny I'm afraid.

    Firstly - it's not only fulltime clubs in Britain that face long journeys. Look at Scotland's Fourth tier, where you have Annan on the English border playing Elgin and Cove at the other end of the country in the Highlands. The players seem to be able to cope with that, despite being only semi-pros.

    Regardless - the key point is this.

    There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.

    Also - the expectation is that an AIL would lead to more clubs turning professional anyway and there being more money in the league. Which would ease the burden of the travel on both clubs and players alike.

    So how would it be unreasonable to expect IL clubs to play in such a league, but it's OK for Derry, Cork and Harps to do so ? Obviously players and clubs would prefer to minimise their journey times. Who wouldn't in life. But if that is an over-riding priority, then it's a charity for mediocrity. Let everyone play in their own little local mini-leagues then and to hell with anything more than an hour or so away.
    If everything else about an AIL was sorted, then the travelling distances wouldn't in themselves banjax it.

    But everything else is not sorted - far from it - meaning that travelling is just one more problem which is hindering it.

    Of course, if you were only talking 5 or 6 NI clubs, most or all of whom were f-t, then travel times and costs wouldn't be insurmountable.

    Otoh, if there were only that number of NI clubs, then the resulting imbalance would cause problems of a different sort. (Basically, reluctance of IL and IFA to buy into the proposal)

    Alternatively, if you admitted more NI clubs, then a lower proportion of their away games would involve travelling long distances.

    Except that those extra clubs are more likely to be p-t, which would cause different problems again for an AIL.

    In short, it's maybe not so simple as it at first looks.
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 26/05/2020 at 2:44 PM.

  3. #463
    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Bit lost here with abreviations wots p&R and OTOH?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

  4. #464
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    OTOH = On the other hand**
    Dont see P&R, but p-t was used = part time

    **I have young teenage kids, they only told me last week what TMI was (too much information) - when I was telling them about to be careful online, 'oh you mean LIKE - TMI ?

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  6. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    Bit lost here with abreviations wots p&R and OTOH?
    Sorry, Promotion & Relegation.

    Also, OTOH (On the one hand) is often followed by OTO - I'll let you figure that one out yourself!

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  8. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Sorry, Promotion & Relegation.

    Also, OTOH (On the one hand) is often followed by OTO - I'll let you figure that one out yourself!
    OTO on the other?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    OTO on the other?
    On the Oxo - kids are so health-conscious these days that instead of drinking cans in fields they binge on stock cubes.

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    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    On the Oxo - kids are so health-conscious these days that instead of drinking cans in fields they binge on stock cubes.
    Honestly Charlie the level of debate on here would be a lot higher if you didn't just throw out stock answers like this.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

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  13. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    Honestly Charlie the level of debate on here would be a lot higher if you didn't just throw out stock answers like this.
    What's your beef ?

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  15. #470
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    Very quick with the finger pointing, Mr A. Takes one to Knorr one.
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    That's it.

    You're going on my ig-Knorr list for that

  17. #472
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Regardless - the key point is this.

    There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.
    This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

    The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriel View Post
    This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

    The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.
    Tbh, I think this is a bit of a Straw Man.

    While some fans might cite the travel distances etc, I don't actually know of one club which is opposed to an AIL just for that reason.

    At worst, you might get the odd club which has other reasons for not wanting to join, who will add: "And then there's the travelling, too."

    Or think of it this way. All the leading IL clubs (bar a couple?) have accepted Lucid's invitations to hear what he has to say.

    They did so knowing the geography of Ireland.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriel View Post
    This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

    The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.
    I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.

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  21. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.
    That is a very good point.

    Remember, at the turn of the 20th century, when football was really taking hold, Belfast was both a bigger and a wealthier city than Dublin. That and the links with Scotland was why the game took hold in Ulster before it did in the rest of Ireland.

    Though it wasn't until later in the 20th C that we moved to a full five day week - initially factories and mills worked on Saturday mornings as well. Which is why football matches took place on Saturday afternoons: you could work until midday or one o'clock and still have time for a pie and a pint in the pub before going to the match.

    And of course the other thing which so bound football fans in NI to the tradition of the 3pm Saturday k.o. was that we didn't (dare) play games on a Sunday.

    You know, for the salvation of our mortal souls and all that.

    Then there's winter football, which I know many people are attached to, even despite the logical arguments for moving to a summer season.

    Now tbf to Lucid, he's never pretended to be a dyed-in-the-wool fan of club football in Ireland, but when rolling out plans which appear very logical and coherent on paper, I really don't think he "gets" why a lot of fans might not feel the same, bound as they are to habit, history and tradition etc.

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  23. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.
    Yes totally agreed good point on Belfast, this was indeed the power horse and probably most important city on the Island 100 years ago and more. The rest of Ireland missed out really on the Industrial Revolution as we learned in school. Also when the Irish League was set up this was of course all Ireland and only Bohs and Shels are now still about from the ‘southern’ teams who took part, I think. Hence this is why NI retained the name and when ROI set up theirs in early 20s it was The Free State league and later it’s current name of LOI.

    I still think the 3pm Sat ko would be a hard nut to crack for participating clubs to give up, unless the NI clubs played at that time for home and 745 on Friday for eg on away games. The 3pm sat ko will also suit the NI part time clubs who’s players work during the week.

    Then again 3pm sat will not be attractive to many broadcasters.
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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Thats interesting that Belfast was the main city of the whole island of Ireland. How much bigger was it than Dublin and what caused Belfasts decline in population?When did Dublin overtake Belfast in status and population size?
    Sorry for all the questions but Im a bit intrigued!
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    The population of Belfast was a smidge under 400k in 1911 and Dublin around 300k, iirc. Belfast's two biggest industries were shipbuilding and linen and both went into decline by the 1920s - shipbuilding because there was a glut of ships available after the war and linen because cheaper materials were available. Add Prohibition in the US which cut off the whiskey export market and the scene was set for long term economic decline. I don't know when Dublin overtook Belfast but it was bigger by the late 1940s at any rate - which is some shift in less than 40 years.
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  27. #479
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    The population of Belfast was a smidge under 400k in 1911 and Dublin around 300k, iirc. Belfast's two biggest industries were shipbuilding and linen and both went into decline by the 1920s - shipbuilding because there was a glut of ships available after the war and linen because cheaper materials were available. Add Prohibition in the US which cut off the whiskey export market and the scene was set for long term economic decline. I don't know when Dublin overtook Belfast but it was bigger by the late 1940s at any rate - which is some shift in less than 40 years.
    The population of Belfast in 1911 was 387k and Dublin's 305k, as you say.
    Dublin as a proportion of the 26 counties (3,140k) represented 9.7%.

    By 1946, the population of Dublin was 636k, but with the overall population of the 26 having declined slightly to 2,955k, this now represented 21.5%.

    In other words, there was a huge population transfer from country to city, doubtless for economic reasons, esp the decline of agriculture.

    The picture was different in NI. Between 1911 and 1951 (no 1946 census), the population rose from 1,130k to 1,371k = 18%. Meanwhile, the population of Belfast went from 387k to 444k, an increase of 13%.

    I think I read somewhere that at the start of the 20th century, Ulster (9 counties) produced over 75% of Ireland's GDP. And I'm pretty sure (open to correction, mind) that NI was wealthier per capita than ROI right up until the late 1960's.

    This began to be reversed in the 70's/80's/90's, primarily due to three factors:
    1. The decline of traditional manufacturing industries in the UK (and Western economies generally) hit NI esp hard;
    2. The above coincided with The Troubles, which led to private investment, both GB and foreign, withdrawing almost completely;
    3. ROI got a much greater economic boost from EEC entry per capita than NI/UK (basically farmers benefiting from the CAP).

    And to take this thread back (vaguely) on track, I suspect that if you were to track the fortunes of club football in NI over the same period, you'd find a strong correlation with those economic and demographic trends.
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 31/05/2020 at 5:31 PM.

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  29. #480
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    And before the thread gets back on track Dublin became the Capital of an Independent (very centralised) State which helped its growth no end.

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