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Thread: All-Ireland League Thread

  1. #421
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    You should really be a politician Nesta (not a compliment btw) since all you've said is "you didn't answer my question" without ever actually pointing out what part of the question I didn't answer.
    Ouch! Burnt...

  2. #422
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    Nope he didn't say he wouldn't wait around, that was the journalists added comment. What he said was basically no time like the present. And he did get his reasons for delay when clubs said they liked the general idea but not the format.


    He set feedback deadlines, which were met. How business works.



    Are you trying to say with a straight face that the IFA do not have an historical reputation for being bigots? A reputation that may make people hesitant to invest in a project involving them giving up some power and working long term consistently with the FAI? Whether or not the current board members are or not is largely irrelevant because that doubt is in the mind of everyone involved and without written commitments on the IFAs behalf their historical reputation and the number of players electing to play for the FAI does not help them. When you're dealing with business especially marketing departments image is everything and the IFAs image does not portray them as likely to work with the FAI in a power share capacity long term.

    Also lucids hardly going to call them out while he still hopes a deal can be salvaged
    On that logic why would anyone touch the FAI with the legacy of corruption, dodgy dealings, ticket touting, anti-domestic football etc. Lucid is mad in the head to have bothered!

    *no answer required!

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  4. #423
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    Buller, there's more to that than meets the eye, I would think, and I'd be sceptical of how likely it is to happen. In terms of competition, clubs, influencing factors etc, there's less need for UEFA to stick their necks out and create precident for merged leagues by making a benelux league (for want of a better term). However the argument holds water, that a precedent is a precedent regardless of who sets it.If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly hold my hands up, but I think it's miles away in this jurisdiction to be honest - unless UEFA start from scratch and leave all options on the table in light of the effects of the pandemic.

    For a start, there are strong rumours on the ground here that there is a serious financial crisis in Belgian football, in a couple of the big clubs. Such a merger of leagues and the increased finance would definitely solve problems.
    I'm not sure about how it would be voted upon, but in Belgium it would likely see opposition from the lower ranked teams who in some cases are over-achieving*. It clearly states 10 Dutch sides and 8 Belgian sides. That definitely creates a two-tier in Belgium, as you could nearly split the big/successful/well-supported clubs over the rest into 8 & 8 in the Jupiler League.

    *There are still issues in governing here, and in the split systems (Walloons and Flanders), despite efforts at trying to patch things up. There's an issue as well with the economy. Brussels aside the Flemish region is in much better financial health than Wallonia. I'm not sure how it would go down in Belgium, allowing the better clubs to join what one could describe as a Dutch/Flemish Super League (only Standard and Charleroi would be considered Wallonian's) thus pushing the Wallonian clubs in general into a poorer Belgian National League.

    Another aspect as well, and it's referenced in the link you put up, is the European Super League prospect. Ajax are going to be all over that possibility. Not really sure what other clubs could push to be part of it (PSV aren't glamourous enough, while Feyenoord haven't had the success, and Anderlecht are small-fish continentally in the modern game).

    I'd be reluctant to use the BE & NL possibility as an example (cue an announcement next month!).
    I'm hugely excited by the possibility of an AIL, and don't underestimate the support at government levels either, either politically, or financially. There is big EU money to be tapped into as well for such a project, and our Ministries are pretty good at extracting such funds.
    Interesting stuff! You have me intrigued on the pending announcement. I have always tended to dislike proposals for pan-national, European Super league proposals as it just underpinned the growing gap between the haves and have nots in football. Certainly UEFA have been making decisions in trying to head off potential breakaway proposals from super-clubs, by gradually adapting the CL - guaranteeing places for big clubs almost and reducing access for us minnows. Maybe its the current economic woes that are to hit but I am less skeptcal these days. There is merit to the economic, political and social, positive potential that football can have in redefining borders. But as you have very clearlu outlined, there are always going to be people/clubs that will lose out and need to be protected also. I have no idea how that could be done mind.

    In AIL terms, and what Buller has mentioned, not kicking off until there is x amount in the prize pot makes a lot of sense. This in itself guages interest from outside the football community. It would need somehow to be shown that this sort of money can be perpetuated beyond a first season, if there is real political will behind the proposals then this is attainable. Maybe I hoped that in some way political leaning on UEFA could have helped address the European qualification conundrum (setting precedences issues aside), but if prizemoney is sufficient, the scramble to get in to Europe (and progress) due to being starved of money domestically, will be less pronounced. Beyond finances in, via increased domestic prizemoney it could stabalise club finances as it helps removes the speculate to accumulate model that has blighted clubs over the years. Yes it is/was self inflicted spending beyond means, but it was aften about improvemnet, even survival if counter intuitive. There is so much potential to an AIL, and a real hope that it comes to pass, but I feel its one of those once in decades moments and if it isnt nailed, is aborted, we wont see another chance anytime soon! If there is political will genuinely behind it - well we have seen how much progress can be made in a relatively short timescale, so i'd be far more hopeful than previously.

    Go on give us a hint on the announcement, be it on an AIL or other European footballing developments!!? ;p

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  6. #424
    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?
    What EU funding is this?

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  9. #426
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    I presume it would be mainly under the Peace IV programme. But that runs out this year so Government could look to have another 5 year programme, Peace V which could have the AIL project specified as a significant target project. There are other smaller funds eg for Border regions that could apply but maybe only for some clubs. Socal inclusion funding projects, but would go to individual club initiatives and may not have a direct impact on the sporting side of things. There are cultural funding opportunities that at a push could be applicable. Brexit could have an impact on some of this for IL clubs.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 21/05/2020 at 5:36 AM.

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  11. #427
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    Yeah not like the IFA haven't done anything questionable in the last decade....
    Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




    Oh wait.

    I might just have got some of that wrong....

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  13. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?
    Governments will fund tangible things like new stadiums etc, but they won't just give cash for prize money if that's what you're thinking?

  14. #429
    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    Buller, there's more to that than meets the eye, I would think, and I'd be sceptical of how likely it is to happen. In terms of competition, clubs, influencing factors etc, there's less need for UEFA to stick their necks out and create precident for merged leagues by making a benelux league (for want of a better term). However the argument holds water, that a precedent is a precedent regardless of who sets it.If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly hold my hands up, but I think it's miles away in this jurisdiction to be honest - unless UEFA start from scratch and leave all options on the table in light of the effects of the pandemic.


    I'd be reluctant to use the BE & NL possibility as an example (cue an announcement next month!).
    I'm hugely excited by the possibility of an AIL, and don't underestimate the support at government levels either, either politically, or financially. There is big EU money to be tapped into as well for such a project, and our Ministries are pretty good at extracting such funds.
    This is in relation to Kingdoms previous post about the funding that I was trying to query about.
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Governments will fund tangible things like new stadiums etc, but they won't just give cash for prize money if that's what you're thinking?
    For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




    Oh wait.

    I might just have got some of that wrong....
    That gave me a good chuckle.

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    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




    Oh wait.

    I might just have got some of that wrong....
    Wait are you saying there might possibly be bigotry on both sides of the border? What an extraordinary thought!
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?
    No government, north or south, will provide prize money for domestic football in Ireland, if that's where you're coming from (apologies- I'm still not clear) ?

    Re stadia, there is a Stormont budget available in the north that clubs can apply to.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 21/05/2020 at 3:51 PM.

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  20. #434
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that UEFA rules wouldnt allow it anyway. But by backing things elswhere it could free up money that could then be redirected. There can be broad interpretations, especially for social and cultural projects when it comes to applications that have the ear of government.

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    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I presume it would be mainly under the Peace IV programme. But that runs out this year so Government could look to have another 5 year programme, Peace V which could have the AIL project specified as a significant target project. There are other smaller funds eg for Border regions that could apply but maybe only for some clubs. Socal inclusion funding projects, but would go to individual club initiatives and may not have a direct impact on the sporting side of things. There are cultural funding opportunities that at a push could be applicable. Brexit could have an impact on some of this for IL clubs.
    If that's what he was referring to, then there is a long queue to get into.

  22. #436
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?
    Not a mission they would hand out money for such.

  23. #437
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post

    Re stadia, there is a Stormont budget available in the north that clubs can apply to.
    There is no budget for such. There is supposed money ringfenced, however it was first announced some 9 years ago. Since then it remains locked away for several reasons.

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  25. #438
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    There is no budget for such. There is supposed money ringfenced, however it was first announced some 9 years ago. Since then it remains locked away for several reasons.
    The sum in the Regional Stadium Development Fund was (still is?) 36m.

    It was originally formally announced in 2012 (iirc), though it was not meant to be disbursed until 2015 i.e. after the National Stadium Development Funds had been spent on re-building Windsor (i.e. Stage 1, which also covered Ravenhill and Casement).

    However, the completion of Windsor was delayed because adjacent building work on Olympic Leisure Centre by Belfast City Council caused cracks to appear in the Kop* after a game in March 2015, meaning it had to demolished and re-built, thereby delaying the Regional stage. And iirc, that meant the Regional money wasn't allocated and begun to be spent before the Assembly collapsed in January 2017.

    I personally can't claim any insight into the latest state of play over this money, but the pessimist in me fears that it may be reduced, or even pulled/diverted, such is the present crisis in public finance. But tbf, there hasn't been anything announced on these lines, so maybe it's just a matter of time before it begins to be distributed.


    * - Being fairly new, a new Kop wasn't originally planned to be part of the redevelopment of Windsor, but the damage meant it had to be. The IFA sued for the cost of this additional work. And according to the Sunday Life at the w/e:

    The case taken against Belfast City Council, a contractor and engineering firm was settled in Belfast High Court last November, and Sunday Life Sport understands the compensation was paid in the last fortnight.
    "Both the IFA and Linfield took cases following the forced closure of the West Stand at the National Stadium," explained a Windsor insider. "Linfield's payout was a five-figure sum while the IFA's payout was much greater, in the millions."
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 21/05/2020 at 11:03 PM.

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    First Team Buller's Avatar
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    To surmise:

    Arguments against All Island League proposal:

    • NIFL clubs all earn the same embarrassing and pathetic amount as LOI clubs do in prize money, when all costs are added up.
    • It could never happen, Lucid is pulling figures out of the air.
    • The NIFL is very strong right now and we dont need it because our clubs never go bust.
    • We definitely wont be able to access Peace funds because the list looking for a slice of the 400m on offer is huge.



    Arguments for All Island League proposal:

    • Modeling shows it could create a league valued 10 times higher than either league within 5 years.
    • Even in the inaugural year, its likely worth 4 times more value. Unnamed TV companies and sponsors Lucid have talked to backed this up with pre-bids. Conservatively, the initial year could have a prize fund in excess of €2m. An All Island League is a very tasty proposition.
    • If a minimum pool of prize money from negotiations is not got (€2m was mentioned in the AIL meeting I attended) the league would not go ahead.
    • With increased wages, youth can stay in Ireland longer, and our teams do better in Europe.
    • Far bigger chance of regular access to Europa Conference League prize money (which is rumoured to be similar to Europa League prizemoney)


    All he's asking is the FAI and IFA to approach UEFA for sanctioning it, so that TV companies and sponsors could bid. Its chicken and egg without that. Proof of concept.

    So the argument is that we should definitely not try, even though there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.
    Last edited by Buller; 21/05/2020 at 11:11 PM.

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    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buller View Post
    Arguments against All Island League proposal:

    • It could never happen, Lucid is pulling figures out of the air.
    • The NIFL is very strong right now and we dont need it because our clubs never go bust.
    • We definitely wont be able to access Peace funds because the list looking for a slice of the 400m on offer is huge.
    • NIFL clubs all earn just as much as LOI clubs do in prize money, when its all added up.



    Arguments for All Island League proposal:

    • Modeling shows it could create a league valued 10 times higher than either league within 5 years.
    • Even in the inaugural year, its likely worth 4 times more value. Unnamed TV companies and sponsors Lucid have talked to backed this up with pre-bids. Conservatively, the initial year could have a prize fund in excess of €2m. An All Island League is a very tasty proposition.
    • If a minimum pool of prize money from negotiations is not got (€2m was mentioned in the AIL meeting I attended) the league would not go ahead.
    • With increased wages, youth can stay in Ireland longer, and our teams do better in Europe.
    • Far bigger chance of regular access to Europa Conference League prize money (which is rumoured to be similar to Europa League prizemoney)


    All he's asking is the FAI and IFA to approach UEFA for sanctioning it, so that TV companies and sponsors could bid. Its chicken and egg without that. Proof of concept.

    So the argument is that we should definitely not try, even though there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.
    When you believe in something, but then proceed to misrepresent and sneer at everyone who doesn't exactly believe in it, it doesn't strengthen your case, it merely reduces your credibility.

    As well as reducing the likelihood of serious debate on threads like this.

    HTH.

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