All-Ireland League Thread

[RathfarnhamHoop]

It must be remembered that Lucid has basically tabled 2 proposals. The first was a full blown AIL. The second was a glorified version of the Setanta Cup. Only a minority of NIFL Premiership clubs gave the AIL proposal any real support. Several said no, others just asked to be kept informed of developments. More meetings were held with clubs and as a result he took the AIL off the table and put forward his second proposal several weeks ago. Even pre-shutdown the clubs were aware of this new direction. Since then the final document was shared with the clubs and subsequently made public, despite just a short time earlier announcing that given the circumstances it was not the right time to do so. It seemed like a final throw of the dice. In all those weeks/months since the 2nd proposal became apparent, I am not aware of any NIFL clubs giving much more than lip service to it, let alone formally supporting it. I suspect it was much the same from LOI clubs.

So to just point to the IFA finding reasons to keep their ball, completely misrepresents the general/majority consensus of clubs, who after all is from where the core support was needed. Lucid made it clear from the outset, that only once the clubs had signed up to his proposal, would he then formally go to the marketplace for TV deals and sponsorship. The clubs had to jump first with no parachute supplied until after they had left the plane and even then there was no guarantee the parachute would be up to the job.

The whole thing appeared dead in the water. No one was talking about it or was there any discussion amongst clubs about. Only the Derry City prompted is to surface again. One wonders why it suddenly appeared. It was only their statement that caused the IFA President to be asked about it.

This whole post is you using absence of evidence to support your theory which you can't do.

I could make the exact same counter points. No team has been vocally against it, etc

Also it was never said that when it was released wasn't the right time to do so by Lucids team. So now you're just making stuff up.

[oriel]

No company it going to commit part of their budget to an idea reliant on the IFA putting their bigotry aside without assurances they will.

Would cost the IFA nothing to give commitment to the idea, costs companies to commit money to it.

The IFA don't want an AIL and it has nothing to do with finances it's really that simple

I'd prob agree with this, also back to a previous point I made, no club should be 'forced' to join, and they wont. However this should not prevent those who want to apply to do just that.

I think one of the biggest obstacles for IL clubs is to move away from the comfort zone of possibly Tues and Thurs night training, and 3pm KO on Sat, which allows players to continue work outside football and for most to operate part time.

If their bigger clubs don't join, continuing to play in the current season of Aug to April is not going to help the euro qualifying clubs who wont play a league games for 4-6 weeks before their first euro game. Linfield had a very good euro run last year, this was an exception rather than the rule, and they got some fortunate draws, but they also did (a lot) better than Dundalk v Qarabag, and better overall as they won 4 of their 6 EL games, but they did also lose 6-0 on agg in the first round v Rosenberg in CL.

[Mr_Parker]

Here is the full article.

Irish FA stand firm on no all-Ireland

Optimistic All Island League visionary Kieran Lucid knew he was flogging a dead horse.

The Kerry businessman had already run his new proposal for a knock-out style All Island competition past football chiefs at the Irish Football Association.

He did not receive the response he wished for.

But despite knowing the Irish FA would refuse to sanction clubs from the Danske Bank Premiership to take part in any new All Island League venture, Lucid and his team - who have invested a considerable amount of time, expertise and money into the initiative - ploughed ahead in releasing their new proposals to a wider audience and hoping to garner support in the court of public opinion.

Lucid, who has been working in conjunction with Dutch business innovation experts Hybercube, proposed the all-island Champions being crowned via a knockout competition.

This event would take place at the end of a split season where the League of Ireland and Irish League would retain independence by declaring their own Champions.

Derry City have been the latest League of Ireland Premier Division club to pick up the baton for Lucid, encouraging all parties, including clubs north and south as well as relevant associations, the FAI and IFA, to give serious consideration to the AIL project.

But the Irish FA, who flatly rejected initial proposals for the formation of an All Ireland League last October, have already informed Lucid they will not entertain his new proposal and, without consent from Northern Ireland football's governing body, clubs under their affiliation would not be sanctioned to play.

Without support from both the IFA and their FAI counterparts, UEFA will not even consider granting status to a new league.

Irish FA President David Martin exclusively told Sunday Life Sport: "The Irish FA Board, after careful consultation, came to the decision we would not go down that road last October and our position has not changed.

"We are aware of the new proposal, we've seen it, we know that it has been distributed widely, but there is nothing in the document to make us change our minds. There is too much uncertainty in terms of finances. From a business perspective, the figures do not add up. They are all hypothetical.

"The proposals are based on opinions rather than actual facts so they don't stack up for us.

"We believe we have built up a strong senior league in this country, a great product, and we don't want to do damage that.

"We have not agreed to jointly examine any new report. Our position has not changed."

Irish League clubs were split last year when Lucid and his team sought interest in the form of a number of meetings.

Crusaders were understood to be bitterly disappointed the Irish FA chose to kick the initiative straight into touch.

But President Martin insists the IFA's main focus is ensuring a strong and thriving senior league when we come out of the coronavirus pandemic and he points to the fact Chief Executive Patrick Nelson and Chief Operating Officer Sean Murphy addressed the Premiership committee last week, informing them of the work they are doing on their behalf with the Northern Ireland Executive and Government agencies.

"It has been suggested that the Irish FA do not have NIFL clubs, and those who play in the Premiership, at the top of our ambitions. I would strongly refute that," states President Martin.

"Since the NIFL came into existence in 2013, and before that when clubs were under the umbrella of the IFA, senior football clubs have been a priority for us. They are the flagship for the local game. We want to see a thriving and healthy senior league, a place where young footballers are given the opportunity to further their careers and indeed be a pathway to full-time football in England and Scotland.

"We want to improve significantly the League's club co-efficient rating on the European stage.

"The senior game is prominent in the five pillars of the Irish FA's five-year strategy, which we are all working towards.

"Every business is going through a difficult time with the effects of the coronavirus pandemic and it's really challenging. These are unprecedented times and it's important we support every strand of our game to make sure, when football does return, it comes back as strong as possible and we want to take the game forward."

President Martin concedes cross-border competition will continue, but only on the terms of Irish FA and FAI.

"We have spoken to the All Ireland group and we informed them that we have a number of projects with the Football Association of Ireland and their clubs which are going well and we may look to expand on," he stresses.

"We have matches in the women's game, at intermediate level involving men, the Regions Cup, our disability teams have excellent relationships with their counterparts down south, there is the President's Cup, which is a match between the winners of the respective Junior Cups, and then, of course, last year, for the first time, we held the Champions Cup and those were two great events in Dundalk and Belfast.

"There is an opportunity to widen that competition, possibly going from two teams to four and maybe even eight. But we would need to enter into discussions around that with the relevant people."

The IFA appear to have hammered a final nail in the coffin of Lucid's AIL dreams, but he didn't take no for an answer first time around and there is no indication he will accept this outcome.

[Mr_Parker]

This whole post is you using absence of evidence to support your theory which you can't do.

I could make the exact same counter points. No team has been vocally against it, etc

Also it was never said that when it was released wasn't the right time to do so by Lucids team. So now you're just making stuff up.

Apart from the fact I have personally been involved, in receipt of all discussion documents and attended the meetings, let alone speak to other clubs on a regular basis, then it is much more than just a theory. As for no team being vocally against it, and I presume you mean the second proposal as several went public on the first, most clubs already knew it was going no where and had more important issues to deal with.

[Nesta99]

Let's make it simple.
You're virgin media. You've a pot of 100 million in the TV rights budget.
Are you going to ring-fence 2 million of that for rights for a league when the league has no guarantee of the backing of one of the associations involved. That's before you get into the fact that association is the IFA and all the obstacles it being them brings to the table. You're simply not going to do that, it just won't be signed off at any business.

On the other hand what do the IFA have to lose at being involved in the idea? They can help dictate the pace it goes at, set targets and cut offs that suit them, etc, absolutely nothing to lose for them except the fact their league won't be governed from Belfast which as we know for them is a huge issue.

Lets make it even simpler again! No IL no AIL, no AIL no need for any budget.

Hardly high risk to commit to a budget that will be committed to anyway in due course and there is no loss of monies budgeted, going forward, for if/when it all falls on its ass. If you are Virgin Media who bids regularly for various broadcast rights, and hence need to make a committment in their budget in hope of winning. Now if Virgin Media are beaten in the bidding process by RTE say, whats happens to the money that Virgin had been willing to commit (ringfenced and all)?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Lets make it even simpler again! No IL no AIL, no AIL no need for any budget.

Hardly high risk to commit to a budget that will be committed to anyway in due course and there is no loss of monies budgeted, going forward, for if/when it all falls on its ass. If you are Virgin Media who bids regularly for various broadcast rights, and hence need to make a committment in their budget in hope of winning. Now if Virgin Media are beaten in the bidding process by RTE say, whats happens to the money that Virgin had been willing to commit (ringfenced and all)?

No loss of money yes but they may lose out on other rights.

What you mention about being beaten in a bidding war is just another reason companies won't commit money without the associations backing. There can't be a bidding process before the associations give their backing, afterwards there can.

And that's just TV rights, with sponsorship there's no bidding so while you're not losing money that's not the point of a marketing budget, money sitting idle in it if there's opportunities out there is just wasted money and people would be fired if they put money aside for what's basically an idea on paper without half the backing it needs.

[EatYerGreens]

Lets make it even simpler again! No IL no AIL, no AIL no need for any budget.

Hardly high risk to commit to a budget that will be committed to anyway in due course and there is no loss of monies budgeted, going forward, for if/when it all falls on its ass. If you are Virgin Media who bids regularly for various broadcast rights, and hence need to make a committment in their budget in hope of winning. Now if Virgin Media are beaten in the bidding process by RTE say, whats happens to the money that Virgin had been willing to commit (ringfenced and all)?

Those working in big companies at any level of seniority are busy people.

I've never worked in broadcasting, but I have managed multi-million Pound/Euro marketing budgets for major companies in the past. And I suspect the underlying business realities are not that different to broadcasting rights. .

If someone came to me with an interesting proposition (which, to be honest, happens a lot), I'd have one meeting with them to suss it out. After that I'd tell them to come back to me when it's more fully baked, and I wouldn't put more effort inti it personally until then. As you've about a hundred other things you're meant to be pursuing at the same time, so you focus on those with genuine legs.

I might have a junior person act as an ongoing point of contact, but I wouldn't be diverting myself from the job over it. Especially if your pay is in any way bonus-related.

That's just the reality of how the commercial world works.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I mean all this really exposes is that the IFA are, were and always will be a bunch of bigots like their DUP pals and are unwilling to put the interest of their members before their own political views (you can mention all you want about the clubs not wanting it, that would be a point if the IFA even consulted them but they've just said "we said no in October and we won't budge") and are using finances as a thinly veiled get out of jail free card.

What more can you expect though from an organisation that still plays GSTQ, and they wonder why player after player elects to play for us instead.

[Martinho II]

Considering Sky have the rights to show NI football at present would they come on board if the AIL takes off? As someone whos not familar with the inner workings of the NIFL how many of the clubs up north are Catholic and who are they?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Considering Sky have the rights to show NI football at present would they come on board if the AIL takes off? As someone whos not familar with the inner workings of the NIFL how many of the clubs up north are Catholic and who are they?

In the premiership, Cliftonville and that's it really.
Which for a country with a basically 50/50 split Catholic and protestant is pretty odd don't you think.

[Nesta99]

No loss of money yes but they may lose out on other rights.

What you mention about being beaten in a bidding war is just another reason companies won't commit money without the associations backing. There can't be a bidding process before the associations give their backing, afterwards there can.

And that's just TV rights, with sponsorship there's no bidding so while you're not losing money that's not the point of a marketing budget, money sitting idle in it if there's opportunities out there is just wasted money and people would be fired if they put money aside for what's basically an idea on paper without half the backing it needs.

I was being hythetical in relation to Virgin Media, not being specific to this proposal. I am still damn sure that a TV company will in general set out and set aside a budget for anything they are bidding to show, football or other media for braodcast. If they subsequently dont end up spending that money it isnt lost to the company.

Its not the same as sponsorship granted but a minimum amount of financing for an AIL, money to clubs in particular, needs to be indicated and this can be done. I am sure there are expressions of interest from potential sponsors and even informally what funding could be available - there is bound to be a guide. Yes it does need to be baked for more for progression but this is true for a budget also. There are additional possible income streams also that is not sponsorship. It is what it is and heads need to be turned dor some more than others maybe and the only way to do that is with money!!

Yes you have mentioned bigotry just the one or two times RH, you are determined to bang that drum! Good job Lucid hasnt gone in with similar assumptions. IFA could have its hand forced by NIFL if the clubs so wish but there are also clubs that are currently luke warm due to the lack of a fully baked proposal. Maybe those clubs are bigoted too, would a LoI club be the same for seeking further info or not jumping up and down with enthusiasm. I am not commenting on whether I believe that politics is influencing the IFA or NIFL as as with any organisation there will be a range of thinking and motivations, it doesnt matter what I believe in that regard anyway. There will need to be a pragmatic approach to deal with any and all real issues that are held by people, justified or not.

Money always talks in the end!!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I was being hythetical in relation to Virgin Media, not being specific to this proposal. I am still damn sure that a TV company will in general set out and set aside a budget for anything they are bidding to show, football or other media for braodcast. If they subsequently dont end up spending that money it isnt lost to the company.

Its not the same as sponsorship granted but a minimum amount of financing for an AIL, money to clubs in particular, needs to be indicated and this can be done. I am sure there are expressions of interest from potential sponsors and even informally what funding could be available - there is bound to be a guide. Yes it does need to be baked for more for progression but this is true for a budget also. There are additional possible income streams also that is not sponsorship. It is what it is and heads need to be turned dor some more than others maybe and the only way to do that is with money!!

Yes you have mentioned bigotry just the one or two times RH, you are determined to bang that drum! Good job Lucid hasnt gone in with similar assumptions. IFA could have its hand forced by NIFL if the clubs so wish but there are also clubs that are currently luke warm due to the lack of a fully baked proposal. Maybe those clubs are bigoted too, would a LoI club be the same for seeking further info or not jumping up and down with enthusiasm. I am not commenting on whether I believe that politics is influencing the IFA or NIFL as as with any organisation there will be a range of thinking and motivations, it doesnt matter what I believe in that regard anyway. There will need to be a pragmatic approach to deal with any and all real issues that are held by people, justified or not.

Money always talks in the end!!

A TV company will set aside money for something they are willing to show. But unless you're the ceo you're not setting money aside for a league that is not much more than an idea in someone's head and requires the cooperation of a notoriously bigoted group to even get off the ground. Because at your end of year review you'll be asked what in God's earth you put money that could have been used elsewhere aside for. I really don't think you get how these companies work, to them that is lost money, its also lost slot allocation because if they put money aside to show live football they also have to block off a time slot for it which is then huge if they don't fill it.

Thing is lucid does have companies willing to put money in just not in the amounts needed, but to have that with all the obstacles in place currently is fairly impressive.

I'm not calling the IFA bigoted for having problems with the AIL, I'm calling them bigots because they refuse to engage in the process to even explore the possibility that those issues could be resolved. That's what makes it clear their issues aren't sincere not that they have them.

[Bucket]

If Lucid really thinks this will work, why doesn't he put up some of his money for a share in the new company?

[EatYerGreens]

In the premiership, Cliftonville and that's it really.
Which for a country with a basically 50/50 split Catholic and protestant is pretty odd don't you think.

Football in the north is overwhelmingly dominated by clubs and administrators from a unionist background. There will be a number of reasons for that, including the strength of the GAA in Tyrone and other areas. Though there has over the years patently been issues with sectarianism : right up to this century when Donegal Celtic and Lisburn Celtic had to threaten legal action against the IFA/Irish league to be allowed to join the upper levels. But I honestly don't think conscious sectarianism is the big issue with football in the north these days.

Most clubs in NI would draw fans of all faiths and none. But the reality is that the north is very split territorially along religious lines, and consequently so too are its football clubs. Of the 35 clubs in the top 3 tiers of the pyramid in NI (i.e. everything above Junior level really), only 4 clubs are based in identifiably Catholic/nationalist areas (Cliftonville, Warrenpoint, Newry and Newington). A further 2 are based in areas that are pretty mixed these days (Armagh and Dungannon, although Dungannon's limited support does seem to be more unionist in nature). One club (Queens Uni) could be considered 'neutral'. I may have got a team or two wrong in that breakdown, but the broad gist is right. So in a place where the population is roughly split 50-50 between those of a nationalist and unionist background, the top 3 levels of football lean essentially 90% towards clubs from a unionist background.

This is important beyond just a head count and symbolism, as football generally draws its administrators from within. So a structure that is dominated by clubs form a unionist background will likewise be dominated by administrators from a unionist background too.

I wouldn't go so far as Rathfarnham Hoop as to assert that the IFA is solely and continually motivated by bigotry. I think the bigger problem is that most (though by no means all, as it has been run by people from clubs like Cliftonville before) of those involved in the game in the north see the world through unionist-tinted glasses. In an area where such people have largely lived in a bubble of total British cultural dominance for a century, and react with horror at that being challenged in even the mildest way (look at the uproar a few months back in the main unionist newspaper, and amongst some unionist politicians, that so many young people are wearing GAA jersies at Queen's these days. Imagine having your sense of identity challenged by having to even look at a GAA jersey and even acknowledge the presence of the sport! The horror of it all!).

So for administrators and fans from that worldview, why shouldn't they play GSTQ at games? It's NI's and their anthem after all. The GAA in the North would be the polar opposite btw, seeing the world through nationalist-tinted glasses. Both need to get a grip.

So this is the problem. Those running NI football and the overwhelming majority of its clubs are largely from a cultural background which wants NI to remain separate from ROI in every way. They'll be happy to join in on the odd cup competition like the Setanta or Blaxnit over the years, as that involves no threat to the separate status of the two associations and their clubs. But a league? Well that's a different matter. And they just want Northern football to continue along as it is now as a Belfast/Antrim-dominated and unionist-dominated entity, whilst NI continues to change around them in ways they refuse to even see or accept. Hence the flag and anthem have remained issues at internationals and cup finals for decades. And the IFA have no desire to change it, because they see no problem with it themselves.

P.S. The one rare occasion that the IFA did make a change was when they agreed that GSTQ shouldn't be played at Irish Cup Finals if a team from a nationalist background was involved. But the DUP called them to a meeting hastily, and that policy was immediately reversed. Resulting in the ludicrous scenes when Cliftonville played Coleraine in the final 2 years ago.

[oriel]

Considering Sky have the rights to show NI football at present would they come on board if the AIL takes off? As someone whos not familar with the inner workings of the NIFL how many of the clubs up north are Catholic and who are they?

Correct on Cliftonville, the only established nationlist club in the IL Prem. Warrepoint would be also, but tiny club, Newry also in FD, but another very small core support base, all others are of the other persuasion.

GAA football is the biggest sport in NI, and the biggest attendance football (soccer) team is Derry, so taking both into account, the IL is primarily a Prodestant / Unionist run league. They even play GSTQ at cup finals, which was incredibly insulting to Cliftonville when they qualified for the final a few years ago.

[oriel]

, why shouldn't they play GSTQ at games? It's NI's and their anthem after all.

You see its not, GSTQ is Englands National Anthem, FLower of Scotland, Land of my father (Wales) etc, in reality the Unionist created NI state simply 'adopted' this just to force their dominance on the other side. This was cetainly not in keeping to repersent both communities, and added to the decades of trouble, a neutral anthem one like Danny Boy or another would have been more acceptable and better received.

[Nesta99]

A TV company will set aside money for something they are willing to show. But unless you're the ceo you're not setting money aside for a league that is not much more than an idea in someone's head and requires the cooperation of a notoriously bigoted group to even get off the ground. Because at your end of year review you'll be asked what in God's earth you put money that could have been used elsewhere aside for. I really don't think you get how these companies work, to them that is lost money, its also lost slot allocation because if they put money aside to show live football they also have to block off a time slot for it which is then huge if they don't fill it.

Thing is lucid does have companies willing to put money in just not in the amounts needed, but to have that with all the obstacles in place currently is fairly impressive.

I'm not calling the IFA bigoted for having problems with the AIL, I'm calling them bigots because they refuse to engage in the process to even explore the possibility that those issues could be resolved. That's what makes it clear their issues aren't sincere not that they have them.

This bigotry line is a borderline obsession at this stage, I think you may just have gotten your opinion across! I know you understand what hypothetical means and that you know what I was getting at when i said 'anything they are bidding on'. If your are avoiding the premise of mypost well it says plenty in itself.

[EatYerGreens]

Correct on Cliftonville, the only established nationlist club in the IL Prem. Warrepoint would be also, but tiny club, Newry also in FD, but another very small core support base, all others are of the other persuasion.

GAA football is the biggest sport in NI, and the biggest attendance football (soccer) team is Derry, so taking both into account, the IL is primarily a Prodestant / Unionist run league. They even play GSTQ at cup finals, which was incredibly insulting to Cliftonville when they qualified for the final a few years ago.

Cliftonville was actually a unionist club up until the late 1970s btw.

At that point a combination of Belfast's shifting demographics due to The Troubles and the dropping of the club's amateur status, saw it attract a completely new fanbase. Prior to then the Reds had been an amateur club with a largely unionist (though also small in number) support base.

[EatYerGreens]

You see its not, GSTQ is Englands National Anthem, FLower of Scotland, Land of my father (Wales) etc, in reality the Unionist created NI state simply 'adopted' this just to force their dominance on the other side. This was cetainly not in keeping to repersent both communities, and added to the decades of trouble, a neutral anthem one like Danny Boy or another would have been more acceptable and better received.

Regardless of the why - GSTQ is NI's anthem. There is no other.

So if you view the world from a unionist perspective, why shouldn't it be played?

I honestly don't think it was adopted to force dominance on the other side. It was adopted because those who did so saw NI as the team of a unionist-dominated state, and they saw/see the world through a unionist/British cultural worldview. So of course they were going to pick GSTQ.

Flower of Scotland and Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau are not official national anthems btw - just widely used ones. Only Westminster has the power to decide on official national anthems, even for the devolved nations/regions.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

This bigotry line is a borderline obsession at this stage, I think you may just have gotten your opinion across! I know you understand what hypothetical means and that you know what I was getting at when i said 'anything they are bidding on'. If your are avoiding the premise of mypost well it says plenty in itself.

I got exactly what you meant and it has been answered, I've avoided nothing and I sense that if it wasn't me saying this Nesta you'd actually agree because everyone here and their mother knows why the IFA are really against an AIL.