All-Ireland League Thread

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Careful Nigel - you'll be accused of having a chip on your shoulder next...

Nope it's one thing to disagree with or misinterpret someones post (in nigels case I think he simply just missed the fact I wasn't saying they are running within their means, just that they are as much as Glentoran are) . It's another to so openly hypocritical.

[EalingGreen]

Not sure this is true, Derry City are still (by far) the best supported team in NI, even if they play in LOI, last season avg was 3k, compared to next best within NI, which was Linfield at 2,300 I think.

Tbh, that doesn't absolve DCFC of running their business badly, rather it just makes it worse.

For if they have that level of support in a stadium built and maintained for them by the local council, have enjoyed European money and still they can't break even, but need a benefactor to bail them out each season (see post #283), then it doesn't look good.

And it looks worse again when contrasted with other clubs (both IL and LOI) who get by on lower crowds, in stadia which they have to maintain themselves, with no European football and no benefactor.

[EalingGreen]

How many clubs fans, if they are being honest with themselves care about their clubs financial management (or indeed mismanagement)?

If the worst case scenario for a League of Ireland club is to start from scratch in Div. 1 and as a new entity but carrying over every single thing associated with the previous entity except debt (therefore being, in a footballing sense, the exact same club) then there is no real deterrent at all.

If clubs have people willing to throw short term large sum money at them for short term success, is there something to be said for playing the boom and bust game?

In Derry City’s League of Ireland history we have never actually won a League title without financially crippling ourselves, but as a fan I am not sure I would change that to be honest.

Refreshingly honest - and applies to many (most?) (all?) fans.

But that's my point. While LOI clubs/fans could naturally be worried that IL clubs might drag standards down on the pitch in an AIL, IL fans/clubs should be worried that LOI clubs might drag the whole league down by their off-the-pitch activities.

For while the IL had to learn a hard lesson after a period when many clubs tried to "buy success" by gambling with money they didn't have, too many LOI clubs appear not to have heeded that lesson.

And while I personally am in favour of an AIL in principle, I would be very worried that it might crash and burn for financial reasons (clubs overspending and Lucid's promises of money unfulfilled), at which point we might not even have an IL to go back to.

[EalingGreen]

While, EG himself might not have done so at the time, many others did when the Platinum 1 AIL proposals were put on the table some years back, when the then Glentoran chairman and vice chairman, were championing the proposals and appeared to be heavily involved. Is it a coincidence that the same former VC is involved in Lucid's group?

I'm reliably informed that Stafford Reynolds hasn't been involved on the Board of GFC for nearly a decade, regardless of what his (undated) Linked-In entry might claim!

Obviously Lucid is perfectly entitled to enlist support for his proposal from both sides of the border, but it would impress rather more if he could persuade some more people who are still actively involved in the game.

[EatYerGreens]

If the worst case scenario for a League of Ireland club is to start from scratch in Div. 1 and as a new entity but carrying over every single thing associated with the previous entity except debt (therefore being, in a footballing sense, the exact same club) then there is no real deterrent at all.

The worst case scenario for an LOI club would be to lose their stadium (presuming they own it), and thereby become homeless. A number of clubs have come close on that front in recent decades, which is why the likes of Dalymount and United Park are no longer owned by their clubs. Don't forget also that going bust is an extremely painful process for all involved. It will burn out some volunteers in a league which is heavily reliant upon them. And it will mess around and leave out-of-pocket many local businesses, who won't forget when the 'new' entity come s knocking again looking for sponsorship etc. Going bust in Irish football is by no means the simple wipe of an etch-a-sketch board that you're suggesting it is here.

[EalingGreen]

I don't know Mr Parker or EalingGreen (no relation) to judge, but it wouldn't be unfair to point out that a lot of Irish League fans seem to have a small obsession or shoulder chip about Derry City to be honest. Always saying they should rejoin the IL or jumping on the media stories to that effect, for example, before inevitably claiming they wouldn't want them back when the club yet again makes it clear it won't be moving.

They deny it of course. But there's definitely a touch of the jilted/huffy former lover about some in the north

DCFC left nearly half a century ago.

I for one am well over it.

If others still have a problem with it, then that is for them to answer for.

What I don't like is the likes of 'Rathfarnham' automatically assuming I am one of those still with the problem, when my comments on DCFC have all been pretty factual, rather than "chippy".

Of course I can make my own guess as to why he might make his misplaced assumption, or associate me with those others, but I'll leave it to him to reveal.

Or not.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

DCFC left nearly half a century ago.

I for one am well over it.

If others still have a problem with it, then that is for them to answer for.

What I don't like is the likes of 'Rathfarnham' automatically assuming I am one of those still with the problem, when my comments on DCFC have all been pretty factual, rather than "chippy".

Of course I can make my own guess as to why he might make his misplaced assumption, or associate me with those others, but I'll leave it to him to reveal.

Or not.

Or you could read my posts and realise I think you've a chip on your shoulder because of your hypocritical points and it has nowt to do with where your from

[EatYerGreens]

Tbh, that doesn't absolve DCFC of running their business badly, rather it just makes it worse.

For if they have that level of support in a stadium built and maintained for them by the local council, have enjoyed European money and still they can't break even, but need a benefactor to bail them out each season (see post #283), then it doesn't look good.

And it looks worse again when contrasted with other clubs (both IL and LOI) who get by on lower crowds, in stadia which they have to maintain themselves, with no European football and no benefactor.

I have no knowledge of the inner workings of Derry City FC, but their situation strikes me as very simple.

They have a long-standing benefactor, who is a self-made local man, lifelong supporter of the club and one of Ireland's richest people. He never asks for and doesn't appear to want anything in return for putting his own money into the club. He is also known for funding all sorts of other charitable and community stuff around Derry too. He is not a Venture Capital firm like Peak 6 at Dundalk. And nor is he a Welsh 'investor' like Ali Pour who heads up Glentoran Recreation Ltd now.

Peak 6 and Pour could go and pull their funding in a heartbeat - which would leave Dundalk and Glentoran in a financial crisis. As neither owner has any genuine connection to the club except making money, there is probably a good chance this will happen some day. As it does all too often in football everywhere.

We know why Philip O'Doherty is at Derry. And as far as backers go, he's about as cast iron for that club as you can get. The guy is massively wealthy, is a lifelong fan, and is there for the long haul. So are you saying Derry should just refuse to accept his money? Because that's the natural conclusion of your point here (in so far as you genuinely have one). Would you be less chippy if he gave Derry the same money and called it sponsorship, putting the name of his company on their shirts in return? Would that pointless charade make you sleep better at night?

Why is Ali Pour at Glentoran? His business is in providing financing for the games industry (Altara Investments Limited). So why is he at Glentoran? What got him interested, and what does he want from his involvement with the club? Maybe it's all just a property deal on the Oval? He wouldn't be the first person to buy a football club to nick its primary asset.

In reality Derry City AREN'T living beyond their means at all. Their means are artificially inflated each year by a benefactor, which I would characterise as 'financial doping'. But the money is there for them, they decide to take it and budget accordingly, and as a result they are living within their means. They are paying all their bills and no-one goes unpaid. It's remarkable that you're pointing out the proverbial splinter in Derry City's eye here when your own club has a Californian Redwood Tree of shaky finance sticking out of its own.

So I'm with Rathfarnham Hoop on this. Almost everything you're castigating Derry City for on this thread can easily be levelled at Glentoran too. Only it's worse with the Glens, because your wealthy benefactor has unknown motives and will most probably feck off in a heartbeat and leave you genuinely screwed. Hence why you seem more interested in just throwing rocks at Derry City than in having a genuine debate or making genuine points. Because otherwise you'd acknowledge the significantly more tenuous nature of your own club's financing - and indeed others north and south, from Dundalk to Larne - and be a tad more circumspect. But hey - Derry City

[EalingGreen]

it's about EG being hypocritical because one party is Derry City.

I said it purely to point out EGs hypocrisy when it comes to Derry City.

Nope it's one thing to disagree with or misinterpret someones post (in nigels case I think he simply just missed the fact I wasn't saying they are running within their means, just that they are as much as Glentoran are) . It's another to so openly hypocritical.

Or you could read my posts and realise I think you've a chip on your shoulder because of your hypocritical points and it has nowt to do with where your from

There you go again.

It would only be "hypocritical" if GFC were doing what DCFC have been doing. They haven't.

For example, DCFC racked up big debts trying to buy success, then went bust leaving bills unpaid, before blithely starting again as a "new" club, as if nothing had happened.

By contrast, after running up similarly big debts chasing success (£1.7m at one stage), supporter-owned GFC avoided administration by slashing costs and selling assets in order to repay those debts. They suffered for this on the field and at the turnstiles but they stuck with it. As a result, they have broken even, or even made a modest profit in recent seasons, unlike DCFC, who have made huge operating losses only able to be covered by a benefactor.

And speaking of benefactors, O'Doherty has been pumping money into DCFC for years to keep them afloat. Whereas GFC's guy only came along last year. At the time, GFC had already reduced their debt to c.£100k and may even have cleared it completely by the time he took over (unsure?).

Of course, we don't know how his present investment will be applied, but I for one hope that he isn't up to anything like the shenanigans at DCFC, who were thrown out of the LOI for keeping two sets of books (i.e. making illegal payments to players), something GFC never did in good times or bad. One of the results of this behaviour was that DCFC were able to compete for European places/prize money, something which GFC have been denied since their own cost-cutting.

And then there's the stadium. GFC have always owned The Oval, which means they have to maintain it (obv). And with local councils imposing incredibly harsh Health & Safety obligations on football grounds, this imposes heavy costs on clubs, as well as restricting capacity to ridiculous levels. By contrast, not only do DCFC not have to bear such costs themselves, but with the Brandywell being Council-owned, it has benefitted by being completely re-built from public funds.

But yeah, apart from all that, DCFC and GFC are exactly the same...

[EatYerGreens]

There you go again.

It would only be "hypocritical" if GFC were doing what DCFC have been doing. They haven't.

For example, DCFC racked up big debts trying to buy success, then went bust leaving bills unpaid, before blithely starting again as a "new" club, as if nothing had happened.

By contrast, after running up similarly big debts chasing success (£1.7m at one stage), supporter-owned GFC avoided administration by slashing costs and selling assets in order to repay those debts. They suffered for this on the field and at the turnstiles but they stuck with it. As a result, they have broken even, or even made a modest profit in recent seasons, unlike DCFC, who have made huge operating losses only able to be covered by a benefactor.

And speaking of benefactors, O'Doherty has been pumping money into DCFC for years to keep them afloat. Whereas GFC's guy only came along last year. At the time, GFC had already reduced their debt to c.£100k and may even have cleared it completely by the time he took over (unsure?).

Of course, we don't know how his present investment will be applied, but I for one hope that he isn't up to anything like the shenanigans at DCFC, who were thrown out of the LOI for keeping two sets of books (i.e. making illegal payments to players), something GFC never did in good times or bad. One of the results of this behaviour was that DCFC were able to compete for European places/prize money, something which GFC have been denied since their own cost-cutting.

And then there's the stadium. GFC have always owned The Oval, which means they have to maintain it (obv). And with local councils imposing incredibly harsh Health & Safety obligations on football grounds, this imposes heavy costs on clubs, as well as restricting capacity to ridiculous levels. By contrast, not only do DCFC not have to bear such costs themselves, but with the Brandywell being Council-owned, it has benefitted by being completely re-built from public funds.

But yeah, apart from all that, DCFC and GFC are exactly the same...

They are the same.

Both clubs are in the same boat now. Both reliant on benefactors for funding their footballing operations. Neither team could do what it does now without them.

The key difference being that Derry's benefactor appears to be cast-iron, in it for the right reasons and want nothing in-return. Whereas Glentoran's benefactor? Well - there's the mystery. But sure you just console yourself with what Derry City did in decades past, rather than face up to the questionable circumstances that your own club finds itself in currently.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

There you go again.

It would only be "hypocritical" if GFC were doing what DCFC have been doing. They haven't.

For example, DCFC racked up big debts trying to buy success, then went bust leaving bills unpaid, before blithely starting again as a "new" club, as if nothing had happened.

By contrast, after running up similarly big debts chasing success (£1.7m at one stage), supporter-owned GFC avoided administration by slashing costs and selling assets in order to repay those debts. They suffered for this on the field and at the turnstiles but they stuck with it. As a result, they have broken even, or even made a modest profit in recent seasons, unlike DCFC, who have made huge operating losses only able to be covered by a benefactor.

And speaking of benefactors, O'Doherty has been pumping money into DCFC for years to keep them afloat. Whereas GFC's guy only came along last year. At the time, GFC had already reduced their debt to c.£100k and may even have cleared it completely by the time he took over (unsure?).

Of course, we don't know how his present investment will be applied, but I for one hope that he isn't up to anything like the shenanigans at DCFC, who were thrown out of the LOI for keeping two sets of books (i.e. making illegal payments to players), something GFC never did in good times or bad. One of the results of this behaviour was that DCFC were able to compete for European places/prize money, something which GFC have been denied since their own cost-cutting.

And then there's the stadium. GFC have always owned The Oval, which means they have to maintain it (obv). And with local councils imposing incredibly harsh Health & Safety obligations on football grounds, this imposes heavy costs on clubs, as well as restricting capacity to ridiculous levels. By contrast, not only do DCFC not have to bear such costs themselves, but with the Brandywell being Council-owned, it has benefitted by being completely re-built from public funds.

But yeah, apart from all that, DCFC and GFC are exactly the same...

There you go spouting irrelevant ****e again. You claim that currently Derry are not being run like a business and Glentoran are but both are reliant on benefactors and lets be real Derrys is more reliable.
Also Derry actually do have to fund the day to day upkeep of the Brandywell that's part of the deal, council build it Derry maintain and run it and have to open it to the community, only thing the council do is major building work, something the Oval hasn't seen in yonks.

You call Derrys statement contentious based off them using facts to suit their narrative yet defend your own doing so as "fact are facts".

Fact it either you yourself are a hypocrit or you just are when it comes to Derry, neither of which are particularly good.

[EalingGreen]

I have no knowledge of the inner workings of Derry City FC, but their situation strikes me as very simple.

They have a long-standing benefactor, who is a self-made local man, lifelong supporter of the club and one of Ireland's richest people. He never asks for and doesn't appear to want anything in return for putting his own money into the club. He is also known for funding all sorts of other charitable and community stuff around Derry too. He is not a Venture Capital firm like Peak 6 at Dundalk. And nor is he a Welsh 'investor' like Ali Pour who heads up Glentoran Recreation Ltd now.

I have nothing against PO'D. On the contrary, as a football fan I admire what he's doing for his local club and would do the same myself had I his money (I wish!)

But the point is that it is a bit rich for DCFC to be stressing the need for football to be run as a business, when that is exactly what they haven't been doing themselves for a couple of decades now.

Peak 6 and Pour could go and pull their funding in a heartbeat - which would leave Dundalk and Glentoran in a financial crisis. As neither owner has any genuine connection to the club except making money, there is probably a good chance this will happen some day. As it does all too often in football everywhere.

Can't speak for Dundalk, but you're plumb wrong about GFC (you need to google some more).
Fact is, by the time Pour came on the scene, GFC had already drastically reduced their debt through cost-cutting and asset sales, such that they were already breaking even or making a small operating profit each year.
Therefore had he not come along, the club would have been perfectly able to carry on without him.

Why is Ali Pour at Glentoran? His business is in providing financing for the games industry (Altara Investments Limited). So why is he at Glentoran? What got him interested, and what does he want from his involvement with the club? Maybe it's all just a property deal on the Oval? He wouldn't be the first person to buy a football club to nick its primary asset.

You're asking the wrong question, it should read "Who got him interested?"

Pour was introduced to GFC by Mick McDermott. McDermott is a Belfast man and former local footballer who became a coach. In recent years he has worked as an Assistant to Carlos Quiroz, including when CQ was managing Iran. Afaik, McDermott decided he wanted to return to NI, identified GFC as offering the potential to develop, inc going f-t, and brought in his (Iranian) contact Pour, who bought the club and made him Manager.

As to whether or not Pour has ulterior motives, time will tell. But the club's supporters were sufficiently impressed/reassured by him and McDermott to vote overwhelmingly to let him take over their club.

Since then he has appeared to invest a very significant sum (up to £1m?) in order to reverse the cuts and get GFC back where their fans feel they should belong. As a wellwisher myself, I obv hope he does so, not least because it would put them in a very strong position to compete in any AIL which came about.

Either way, if it turns out that his motives are less than pure and he engages eg in dodgy player dealings like we saw at DCFC or Rangers FC for instance, then you won't find me defending him.

For that would only make me a hypocrite...

In reality Derry City AREN'T living beyond their means at all. Their means are artificially inflated each year by a benefactor, which I would characterise as 'financial doping'. But the money is there for them, they decide to take it and budget accordingly, and as a result they are living within their means. They are paying all their bills and no-one goes unpaid. It's remarkable that you're pointing out the proverbial splinter in Derry City's eye here when your own club has a Californian Redwood Tree of shaky finance sticking out of its own.

You're overlooking one small thing, which is that PO'D is mortal, just like the rest of us. If something happened to him or his company, under their present business model, that would leave DCFC in deep doodoo. Again.

So I'm with Rathfarnham Hoop on this. Almost everything you're castigating Derry City for on this thread can easily be levelled at Glentoran too. Only it's worse with the Glens, because your wealthy benefactor has unknown motives and will most probably feck off in a heartbeat and leave you genuinely screwed.

As I've demonstrated in this and my previous post, GFC's business affair are nothing like DCFC's - whether that be Administration, unpaid Creditors, expulsion from their league, public money for their stadium, dodgy payments, or operating losses year after year.

Of course it would be nice if you "played the ball" (i.e. addressed my points), rather than joining with 'Rathfarnham' in "playing the man", but I like to think I'm a charitable sort, so I'll live in hope.

Hence why you seem more interested in just throwing rocks at Derry City than in having a genuine debate or making genuine points. Because otherwise you'd acknowledge the significantly more tenuous nature of your own club's financing - and indeed others north and south, from Dundalk to Larne - and be a tad more circumspect. But hey - Derry City

Again, I can't/won't comment on DFC because I don't know enough about them.

But you can leave Larne out of it, since afaik, they have never gone bust in their 131 year history, whether in good times or bad. Rather they have managed to survive without needing a leg up from anyone, even on crowds of a couple of hundred-odd (considerably more these days).
And as for Kenny Bruce, far from seeing the club eg as an opportunity to asset-strip by selling Inver Park, this boyhood fan has invested big money in the stadium and training facilities as well as players, which will stand to the club long after he has gone, so you needn't fear for them.

Anyhow, I only took issue with DCFC because they issued an obviously self-serving and misleading statement on a matter which directly affects my club. And if I'm "throwing rocks" at DCFC out of some perceived spite etc, then why don't you level the same against 'NigelHarps' or 'Mr. Parker'?

Or are they in some way different?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

"my benefactor is different to your benefactor because this happened before he became involved while this happened before yous became involved"

[EalingGreen]

"my benefactor is different to your benefactor because this happened before he became involved while this happened before yous became involved"

Good God! It's really not very hard, is it?

Without PO'D, DCFC would be losing money hand-over-fist, season after season.

Without Pour, GFC were breaking even, or making a small operating profit, for at least the last 4 or 5 years.

Or to put it another way, PO'D's money is needed to keep DCFC afloat, while Pour's money is additional investment designed to take them to the next level.

And that's before we consider the additional support DCFC receive from their local council to re-build the stadium etc. Whereas GFC have got nothing from their council, only grief.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Good God! It's really not very hard, is it?

Without PO'D, DCFC would be losing money hand-over-fist, season after season.

Without Pour, GFC were breaking even, or making a small operating profit, for at least the last 4 or 5 years.

Or to put it another way, PO'D's money is needed to keep DCFC afloat, while Pour's money is additional investment designed to take them to the next level.

And that's before we consider the additional support DCFC receive from their local council to re-build the stadium etc. Whereas GFC have got nothing from their council, only grief.

You have absolutely no idea what business model Derry would be following if O'Doherty wasn't there.

And that's before we consider Derry haven't had any land to sell to cover for a poor business model...

[Longfordian]

There is a difference between putting money in up front as part of the budget and having to pump money in to keep them afloat. Neither is particularly sustainable in the long run but the former isn't as strong an indicator of a badly run club.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

There is a difference between putting money in up front as part of the budget and having to pump money in to keep them afloat. Neither is particularly sustainable in the long run but the former isn't as strong an indicator of a badly run club.

And there's a difference between the person doing it being a lifelong fan of the club and being a mate of a guy who knows someone in the club or whatever the initial connection was to Glentoran. The former isn't as strong an indicator of a potential sudden pulling of the plug.


Listen I'm not saying Derry are being run well but I am saying that Glentoran are hardly the model club being perfectly run.

[oriel]

Peak 6 and Pour could go and pull their funding in a heartbeat - which would leave Dundalk and Glentoran in a financial crisis. As neither owner has any genuine connection to the club except making money, there is probably a good chance this will happen some day. As it does all too often in football everywhere.

A few of us DFC fans discussed this on a zoom catch up last week, at the start of last season DFC had just under 3m in the bank, and spent 600k kitting on the YDC (training buildings, gym, players canteen, dressing rooms, mini cinema style video room for analysis and meetings, further improvement to indoor pitches etc), but here's the thing, who is to say P6 are paying for it all and not just running down the cash reserves and acting as oversight? They could well ship out, when the money runs out, but I don't think that will create a financial crisis, it will just mean the end of DFC dominating, unless another buyer takes over.

We all know why they are here, modest outlay (from either their pockets of dfc bank account) to shore up the shortfalls, then to pick up euro monies. A performance like 2019, played in 3 rounds, probably returned 1.3M, 2 more rounds gets it up to closer to 3m, then if a repeat of 2016 happens, that's now worth 7.5m I think for EL group stage. However its getting harder most season to get this far. In 2016 this was achieved with 2 draws, 1 defeat and 1 win (3-0 v BATE), there were two more games, a defeat and a draw in the 'free shot' of making CL group. Now there is an extra round, and tougher teams in front, so it will hard to match that, a fortunate draw and current cooeficient of 8.5 will help.

So on P6, yes they could leave if they wished, the only worry would be at that point, what players were on longer contracts. Plus as mentioned earlier, it will see the club slip from currently dominating, then to probably mid table, but least the ground can't be sold, that's one 'insurance policy'

In summary I don't think any Irish club North or South can expect to push to challenge in the league over a medium term period or in Europe without a backer, either as oversight or directly putting money in.

[Nesta99]

I have no knowledge of the inner workings of Derry City FC, but their situation strikes me as very simple.

They have a long-standing benefactor, who is a self-made local man, lifelong supporter of the club and one of Ireland's richest people. He never asks for and doesn't appear to want anything in return for putting his own money into the club. He is also known for funding all sorts of other charitable and community stuff around Derry too. He is not a Venture Capital firm like Peak 6 at Dundalk. And nor is he a Welsh 'investor' like Ali Pour who heads up Glentoran Recreation Ltd now.

Peak 6 and Pour could go and pull their funding in a heartbeat - which would leave Dundalk and Glentoran in a financial crisis. As neither owner has any genuine connection to the club except making money, there is probably a good chance this will happen some day. As it does all too often in football everywhere.

Dont slip in that puddle of drool at the prospect EYG! There is somthing of a safety as part of the sale of the club that would soften the blow a bit albeit it would still mean some readjustment to the books sharpish. Not the soundest of financial models but if we keep in European slots it probably isnt miles off what DCFC is being subsidised by. Current financial pressures in sport throws everything to the wind though and even benefactor fans can tire. Its off topic, ye could PM me EYG if deemed more suitable than derailing a thread by me again, but how long do you mean by DCFC's longterm benefactor? Its a genuine question not loaded or making a point. It's only about 10 years ago that Derry City were playing in the 1st Division after being refused a licence for large debt/rejecting budget for licencing/double contract/false accounts stuff - I cant remember whether they were all part of the same episode. 10 years as longterm is down to personal perception probably, but did the chairman get involved at that point or had he any involvement prior. If its a relatively recent involvement why couldnt he have saved the club back then? Its less time since being refused a licence for Europe on the 3yr rule, the club claimed it was a new entity so should have gotten a licence at that time, all very messy if bills could have been paid by a wealthy supporter and save Old DCFC.

I will read back fully and apologise fully if out of order, but a quick scan over the last few posts I shall hazard a guess that discussions have started going in circles, RH has thrown a few wind up type comments and EG is looking for an out but just cant resist another retort to a repeated point. Rinse and repeat stuff.....?

[DCSIL]

Does seem to be going round and round in circles...

If P6 and Ali Pour were to pull out of DFC and GFC respectively the playing budget would just have to be slashed for me. Glentoran are now more or less debt free, the last hurdle was AIB selling a debt to a recovery company, they came for the money, Glentoran survived that by selling a piece of land to the Belfast Harbour Commission(I think). Ali Pour has done similar to what P6 have been doing - providing a competitive playing budget and doing minor improvements round the Oval.