you cant just organise protests will nilly cf, or no one would ever take any of them seriouslly. you have to prioritise, and because to a lot of irish people they empathise with the palestinian conflict, because we have been in a very very similar situation, hence why they want to show their support by using this match as a stage/medium to bring this to the attention of many.
To be honest I think Stutgart 88 has said it best, Protest all you like but keep it away from the ground. Organise it and protest outside the embassy or the airport or wherever but do not protest at the game. Will you be protesting against the Swiss for having Nazi bank accounts.
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Like probably most people here i have no liking for the Israeli state. However people protesting inside Lansdowne road are really just showing themselves up as hypocrites. At least the Israelis are a democratic country.
As mentioned already no one protested when the "communist" (in reality a totalitarian regime) chinese came to town.
Problem with sporting protests is where do you draw the line?
True Pete.....So I assume most people here are against the idea of a protest at the game? ...Yes?.... Good
Politics and football aren't separate. It would be lovely if they were two unrelated issues, but the simple fact is they're not. And anyone who says sport and politics don't mix is kidding themselves.Originally Posted by kerr's tribe
Not willing to take part in it, but supportive of it. I won't be there anyway.
Where did I say that? The israeli army, represents the israeli state, which is voted for by the israeli people- it is a genocidal force for murder. (i.e. if they wanted a change in policy, they could vote for it) Palestinian terrorist groups are not elected by the people, and are therefore not representative of the palestinian people (not that they don't have support) i.e. they cannot vote to change them. Simple really.
Pete, israel calls itself a democracy- its not. There might be "democratic" elections, but the majority of palestinians who SHOULD have the right to vote, are refugees, exiled by that government. Its easy to have a "democracy" when you banish all your opponents and deny them a vote
I would differentiate between the two on one simple point: the Chinese govt gets a good deal of bad publicity, international condemnation from governments etc., for its crimes (and rightly so). Israel does not, simply because it is a US puppet and is therefore immune from condemnation or sanction- hence the need to make a bigger deal out of it.
Eanna, I said they should be kept separate.....
its not necessarily a puppet state, you must remember that jews hold a lot of power in america, partiuclarly in the larger corporations which members can sway congress members etc. Israel is also a backdoor to the middle east for america, america has endorsed and funded Mossad, and used it to get information on arab countries as the CIA acquire all information they acquire.Israel does not, simply because it is a US puppet and is therefore immune from condemnation or sanction- hence the need to make a bigger deal out of it.
But you can abide murdering innocent athletes competing in the Olympics? Or little kids in crowded market place?
Realise that many Palestinian atrocities are just as bad as Israeli atroctiies-a life is a life whether it's Palestinian, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Jew!
Mabye the Palestinians have a right to fight back? Did the RIRA have a right to blow up Omagh.
I wouldn't get involved in this.
Going off a bit don't forget that Israel was formed in the wake of the worst genocide the world has ever seen and memories run long. Doesn't justify what goes on but emphasises how there are multiple sides to every story. To call Israelis "nazi scum" after what their people went through is just cruel as well a biggoted and disrespectful.
I can see where you are coming from-really I can, I've felt passionatly about the North especially who hasn't? But your looking at it with a closed mind. Growing up in England with a family who had suffered at the hands of the IRA I grew up with IRA=bad. When I got a bit older and discovered Irish Republicanism I felt angry and passionatly Republican. Then I researched it through books, the internet, tv and other people-including guys on here. Now i'd say i've got a pretty balanced view on this.
You are older and more experienced than me-you shouldn't have such a black and white view.
Last edited by liam88; 12/05/2005 at 4:27 PM.
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Maybe they should be, I dunno. But the fact is that they AREN'T. What should be, and what is are two very different things.
FFS do you actually read anything before you reply? Where did I say I could "abide" murder of athletes or kids? Nowhere- murder is always wrong. You're either deliberately misinterpreting me, or else you just don't understand what I'm saying. My point is this: murder/terrorism is always wrong. But the difference is that Israeli murder/terrorism is carried out on behalf of the country by an army- and people actually vote for this, and still claim to be a democracy. I'm not saying one murder is worse than another, or one terrorist is less evil than another- because that would be total cráp. What I am saying is that israel has not right to call itself a democratic state while it behaves like this.
Thats exactly WHY its a puppet state. You're right saying there is a strong jewish lobby in the US, and therefore the US supports israel. Without US support, israel would not exist, could not exist- sounds like a puppet state to me!
Ever hear the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?! The genocide the jews went through in the 1930's and 1940's was a terrible, unimaginable horror, and deservedly had the sympathy of the world for that reason. For them to then perpetrate a genocide on the palestinian people only a few decades later is disgusting, and an insult to the memory of all jews who suffered from Nazism. Those who perpetrate these acts on the palestinians are every bit as bad as the Nazi's who did it to their fellow jews, if not worse because they have failed to learn the lessons of history.
I'm not looking at it with a closed mind at all. I've made my decision based on the evidence- i.e. murder/terrorism is wrong. I will always condemn it.
Why not? It is black and white. What Israel is doing is wrong- thats an indisputable fact IMO.
sorry i suppose i should have worded it slightly better, i think its a co-existence, i wouldnt see it as a puppet state, for football parlance, a feeder state basically an associative relationship with integrity constraints based on one needing the other for different reasons that provide mutual benefits for both countries.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but I'd still think of it as a puppet, for the simple reason that (as i said) it couldn't exist without the US.
Just as an aside, Humphries' moralizing must be taken with a grain of salt. The reasons Soviets refused to play in Santiago was because Pinochet (as head of a right-wing cabal) had just seized power and crushed an equally violent communist uprising. It was purely a political move on the Soviet's part.
The Soviet's butchered untold millions of their own people so for Tom Humphries to suggest that the Soviet's somehow gained some honour by refusing to play is utterly and totally wrong.
Israel is not a puppet US state. Further, it is the only democractic state in the middle-east. It certainly isn't perfect but it does have freedom of speech, association and religion which is a damn sight more than any other middle-eastern country.
Let's take the 3 points and leave the nonsense outside.
There is no such thing as a miracle cure, a free lunch or a humble opinion.
I don't mind a peaceful protest away from the game, it is just those who latch on and end up causing trouble who annoy me...Aye,KT(et al)......but Politics & Sport aren't kept seperate in Real life.Though generally,this tends to be more serious than this MB.
It wouldn't exist without the US- that equates to a puppet state to me. How is it democratic when it has forced millions of the rightful inhabitants of its land into refugee camps in surrounding countries, when its army kills children in the street, etc., What about Mordechai Vanunu (sp?) who is living under virtual house arrest having spent 20-odd years in solitary confinement- not allowed speak to journalists, foreigners or allowed leave the country- if thats freedom of speech and association
No-one has said the palestinians are perfect- far from it. At least they don't have the nerve to claim to be a shining example of democracy.
What good is a protest outside gonna do? The idea of a protest inside is to get publicity from the tv cameras. I wouldn't like to see anyone "latching on"- only people who know what they're talking about should protest. Nobody should cause trouble either- it should be dignified and peaceful.I don't mind a peaceful protest away from the game, it is just those who latch on and end up causing trouble who annoy me...
Well, so what does everyone think the score will be?
Well, so what does everyone think the score will be?
You've got the Baileys & you've got the Kaluha. Always kept apart exept for on the odd occassion when they are brought together for a shot of Baby Guinness. When controlled they happen at the same time but don't mix. But if you throw them both in without caution it's a fcuking mess & in the end it's no fun. And, just like Baileys & Kaluha, sport & politics can come together in a controlled environment. Now Israel always bring politics with them wherever they play, thats just the way it is, but they play & the people watch & the football is enjoyed etc...sport & politics; controlled. But throw in a protest & well it becomes spolitirtcs! I'm for the Baby Guinness.
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Once again, my point at least has nothing to do with protesting against the Israeli team. My point centres around main symbol of the nation which will be evident at the game - the playing of the anthem. I for one have no intention of standing to honour the anthem and what it stands for. I think anything else is turning a blind eye on the issue, verging on social irresponsibility (maybe a bit strong, but anyway). If people sit down for the Israeli anthem and then, having made their point, get behind their team, give the visiting team due credit where it's due - where's the problem there?
This is sadly true. I suppose you have to start somewhere (personally, I wasn't at the Chinese game; I wouldn't have honoured their anthem either. Don't know how, seeing as it's difficult to sit down on the North Terrace, but doesn't matter now!).
Ok
Time to intervene.
1/ Protesting the policies of a government you disagree with is fine and noble and should be done outside their embassy which is the appropriate location for making this statement.
2/Consistency.
Almost every team in our group is a Nation with something someone would have a legitimate reason to protest against.
Switzerland... Hoarding of the Nazi gold... hand it over to their surviving relatives!
Israel... Their treatment of Palestinians.
Cyprus... their treatment of Turkish Cypriots in 1970's which caused the Mainland Turks to feel that intervention was necessary. ( I don't happen to share that viewpoint for the record)
France... Their Nuclear testing policies in the Pacific Ocean.
Faeroe Islands... Whaling!
If you are going to protest against any of the opponents , protest against them all.
And for the record booing a team's national anthem, is in my view nothing but a diplomatic discourtesy which loses your argument however legitimate, through bad manners.
There were no protests against any of the following teams in recent years whose governments have a lot of questions to answer... China, USA, Croatia, Russia.. need I go on?
I did not agree with Milosevic's policies when he was in charge in Yugoslavia.
That did not interfere with my admiration for the likes of Stojkovic, Mijatovic, Savicevic etc. I went to watch them train in Belfield and was pleased to do so in 1999. I did not however visit their country until he had been toppled. I have been there three times since 2001 and intend to go back this year. Point is, there are other ways of protesting than booing a National anthem. Have your rally at the Israel embassy by all means. But the Israeli players have no control over government policy and so to penalise them is unfair and misdirected.
Last edited by CollegeTillIDie; 12/05/2005 at 8:41 PM.
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