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Thread: LOI In Europe 2020

  1. #1421
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    I think though you can't analyse the game through McCarey's mistakes without looking at the first Dundalk goal, which was the worst howler of the lot and which was offside. Had Dundalk not gotten that early lead, it would have been a different game too.

  2. #1422
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Id agree that you cant fully analyse the result without looking at all aspects including Dundalk 1st goal. But I do think you can look at individual and collective errors, especially when given an opportunity like the first Vienna goal and to bemoan a missed opportunity. It was a howler from the Vienna keeper but it wouldnt be unusual for Hoban to pressure the keeper unexpectedly with that sort of header. He really does get some power behind them even when there is no pace on the ball in or Hoban himself is static. If the keeper had stopped it as he should, of course it is a different game simply even just cause it knocks a goal off, it may have influenced the game in terms of Dundalk's confidencem or made Vienna nervous but thats hard to quantfy. The third Vienna goal was just calamatous with McCarey choosing to leave his line. The first Dundalk goal,, its not beyond possible that they were caught cold, hardly expecting Dundalk to leave their own 18yd box. They would never have contemplated conceding 3 v Dundalk, 2 penos or not.

    I also think it highlights were Dundalk FC need to improve in Europe and in general, be that coaching, player recruitment or even employing a flipping sports psychologist!

    It's done and dusted so little point in the ifs and buts for supporters. But the club itself can reflect and be proactive.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 06/11/2020 at 2:17 PM.

  3. #1423
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    The keeper, even having slipped (which was a bad mistake) should still have saved Hoban's header to be honest. I mean, Hoban "got the shot on target" as the cliche goes, but he can't really claim any more credit than that. It was one of the worst bits of keeping I've seen in a Dundalk match in a while - and that's saying something

    Plus of course the fact Gannon was offside from the ball played down the wing which was I think two passes before the goal.

    Of course, the goal was scored - but the danger in analysing these things is that you go "Oh if only our mistakes hadn't happened we'd have won" and ignore the mistakes you benefitted from, which isn't really consistent. For example, you can't really make excuses for the Dundalk goal while saying the third was outright calamitous - they both involved keepers making bad decisions to come off their line (and then the Vienna guy compounded his mistake by slipping). Then you get to false conclusions about the game.

    Overall, I thought the result was fair; Vienna were the better team and I think Dundalk were further away from them than the scoreline suggests.

  4. #1424
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Well I did say 'Not getting points last night is not just about the keeper' and posts littered with ifs, incuding the one above. Yeah it may be cliched (is there anything not cliched whan chating about football!?) but no headed opportunity on target no goal - it was offside and would made a much bigger issue if Vienna hadnt won. Maybe its all semantics but if a game is 2-2 in the 86th minute its a disappointment not to get a result irrespective of how it happened. To use a well worn example from Irish sporting lore, who remembers England battering Ireland in Euro '88? Its about the result, analysis is generally just fluff after, my own included. I dont think I know of a striker who doesnt take credit for goals no matter how they are scored - maybe we should refer that one to Pat Morley too!

  5. #1425
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Now I know how Rovers fans felt a couple of years ago with their selection of terrible keepers. If we had a good keeper we would have won that game.
    If you ask Bradser nicely he might give you Tomer Chencinski's number.

  6. #1426
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post

    Overall, I thought the result was fair; Vienna were the better team and I think Dundalk were further away from them than the scoreline suggests.
    Meant to come back on this, I can't agree nor do I see your reasoning for this. Rapid, being the home team and multiple budgets excess more than DFC were very sloppy at the back, and conceded 3 at home, I would think they would consider themselves quite fortunate to have won it, and not just on the late consolation goal.

    Duffy should have scored in the first half to put us 2-1 up, and maybe but not so clear cut could have scored when he got injured in the second half and hit side netting. Slogget also should have scored his header in the second half, so that's 3 good chances alone.

    When compared to Molde game (they deserved to win as they did a job on us in the second half), and Arsenal (no contest), I think this was one game that we deserved to take something from, and that would have been a draw. The poor selection putting the GK in, and the poor use of subs, together with bad mgt overall ensured we were always up against it, but overall def thought it was a huge opportunity lost to get the first point.
    #DundalkFC - 5 titles in 6 years 2014-2019 / FAI CUP Winners 2020

  7. #1427
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    I think first off, as with any discussion forum, it's just my opinion and I don't obviously expect that everyone has to agree.

    The budget difference isn't really relevant; the gap didn't reflect the budget gap, but that doesn't mean Rapid weren't the better team. Dundalk certainly did better than I would have expected, but that's not the argument here. Rapid were a little bit fortunate to win it, but the flip side is they pulled through in the last 10 and were 4-2 up before a last-kick penalty put a bit of a different gloss on the scoreline.

    But I will note that you made no mention of the Dundalk opener being (a) really fortunate and (b) offside. That gave Dundalk something to hold on to from the start. What would have happened had Rapid gone 1-0 up with their long-range strike instead? Confidence changes on both sides and it's a different game potentially.

    Yes, Duffy should have scored alright, but if you argue Sloggett should have scored his header, you have to factor in Rapid's very similar one I think which was also just wide. I think you're unduly biased towards Dundalk chances in your analysis, and I don't think you can evaluate a game just by counting your chances.

    On balance of play, I thought Rapid were pressing more, created more, and always looked the more dangerous. I thought they pressed Dundalk into more defensive mistakes than Molde did. The stats for the game show Dundalk scored with every shot they had on target (which included two penalties), but Rapid had 23 shots compared to 10, 62% of possession, and 8 corners to 5.

    I know you can read too much into stats, and I know Dundalk will argue that they won't have such a bad night in nets again (even though it's been pointed out as a weakness for years...) but it certainly ties into what I felt watching the game, which is that Rapid were controlling it more than Dundalk. Yes, they won narrowly and I'm not arguing that 4-1 would have been a fairer score. But I do think that if I were Rapid looking at the return game, I'd be focussing on cutting out the crap at the back, and I'm not sure Dundalk (a) can raise their attacking game a huge amount or (b) will get that lucky in front of goal again. I would imagine that Rapid's improvement is easier to come by than Dundalk's.

    All speculation of course - welcome to foot.ie. But that's my reasoning for it.

  8. #1428
    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriel View Post
    Meant to come back on this, I can't agree nor do I see your reasoning for this. Rapid, being the home team and multiple budgets excess more than DFC were very sloppy at the back, and conceded 3 at home, I would think they would consider themselves quite fortunate to have won it, and not just on the late consolation goal.

    Duffy should have scored in the first half to put us 2-1 up, and maybe but not so clear cut could have scored when he got injured in the second half and hit side netting. Slogget also should have scored his header in the second half, so that's 3 good chances alone.

    When compared to Molde game (they deserved to win as they did a job on us in the second half), and Arsenal (no contest), I think this was one game that we deserved to take something from, and that would have been a draw. The poor selection putting the GK in, and the poor use of subs, together with bad mgt overall ensured we were always up against it, but overall def thought it was a huge opportunity lost to get the first point.
    PG I think is feeling the pressure a bit from the stick he is getting from journalists and deservedly so. He must come from a culture where he was never challenged!
    Daire Doyles red and black army

  9. #1429
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    What?

  10. #1430
    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    Only the odd parent not happy their kid wasnt playing up to now. Must be hard to have a load of press havibg a pop now

  11. #1431
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Only the odd parent not happy their kid wasnt playing up to now. Must be hard to have a load of press havibg a pop now
    I doubt that media scrutiny will come as a surprise to anyone involved in football - no matter the level.

    It's not like he's getting the Lady Diana treatment.

  12. #1432
    Seasoned Pro sbgawa's Avatar
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    Knowing it happens and being at the centre of it are very different things.

  13. #1433
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post

    But I will note that you made no mention of the Dundalk opener being (a) really fortunate and (b) offside. .
    This might sound like flogging a dead horse, but watching highlights I'm not so sure it was offside. Camera angles can decieve but using the halfway line as a gauge, screencap and taking a line across the pitch as the ball was played Gannon was level. I could see why the lino didnt flag and if he did can understand why. If VAR was available and marginal decisions go to the attacking team then I dont think it would have been ruled out. Tried to post the screenshot, maybe file is too big, but couldnt get it posted - it does show that it was a fine margin at best but onside. Some Rathfarnham Hoop level of forensic analyis is needed!!

  14. #1434
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Stick up a video sure. Beglin called it offside at the time and it looked clear enough from the replays. But you never know

  15. #1435
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    For some reason I cant post the screencap (png file). But here is the link to highlights, pause at 55secs just as the ball is played. Now it is really tight, but its not a banker either way if VAR was available imo.

    https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/vid...en-vs-dundalk/

    To me it looks like the left sided centre half had Ganno onside. It means damn all I know but as a point of interest or even discussion, well for me he was onside.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 08/11/2020 at 3:54 PM.

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  17. #1436
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Hm. It's certainly tighter than I thought from watching the replay in fairness. I think maybe marginally off, but definitely not as clear as I had originally thought.

    It means damn all I know but as a point of interest or even discussion, well for me he was onside.
    I think it's always important to keep this in context alright! It doesn't matter if he was offside; the goal was scored. It doesn't matter if I think Dundalk will lose 6-0 in the return and oriel thinks ye'll win 6-0. What happens happens, and us disagreeing about things on an internet forum isn't remotely important in the greater scheme of things.

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  19. #1437
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    That's all fair cop! For me it would be more about how VAR would have ruled as either side could feel hard done by. I think they tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side!? The ace up the sleeve for LoI is to be underestimated, plenty of platitudes get rolled out about respecting every team, no easy games in Europe etc. Well tbh with exceptions Dundalk FC have benfited from other sides' complacency. We have a chance of results but I think the bit will be between the teeth for both Vienna and Molde having played us and us not rolling over. It could be that we sneak a draw with Arsenal simply as everything is done and dusted and they could stick on their u18s.

    Not sure which year but playing BATE one of the years I think Soligorsk played Glenavon and cruised through, the error was made on thinking thats where Dundalk FC were at and the standard of Irish football was limited, coefficient then would probably have backed that up. Anyway I expect Vienna in particular, especially if able to reach the last 32, will be in a different mindset than last Thursday.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    I think Arsenal have to stick to players in the squad declared, don't they? So given the bench (Leno, Willian, Lacazette, Aubameyang, Bellerin) was stronger than the side that played, I think ye're stuck with hoping they put out the same team again...

  21. #1439
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think first off, as with any discussion forum, it's just my opinion and I don't obviously expect that everyone has to agree.

    The budget difference isn't really relevant; the gap didn't reflect the budget gap, but that doesn't mean Rapid weren't the better team. Dundalk certainly did better than I would have expected, but that's not the argument here. Rapid were a little bit fortunate to win it, but the flip side is they pulled through in the last 10 and were 4-2 up before a last-kick penalty put a bit of a different gloss on the scoreline.

    But I will note that you made no mention of the Dundalk opener being (a) really fortunate and (b) offside. That gave Dundalk something to hold on to from the start. What would have happened had Rapid gone 1-0 up with their long-range strike instead? Confidence changes on both sides and it's a different game potentially.

    Yes, Duffy should have scored alright, but if you argue Sloggett should have scored his header, you have to factor in Rapid's very similar one I think which was also just wide. I think you're unduly biased towards Dundalk chances in your analysis, and I don't think you can evaluate a game just by counting your chances.

    On balance of play, I thought Rapid were pressing more, created more, and always looked the more dangerous. I thought they pressed Dundalk into more defensive mistakes than Molde did. The stats for the game show Dundalk scored with every shot they had on target (which included two penalties), but Rapid had 23 shots compared to 10, 62% of possession, and 8 corners to 5.

    I know you can read too much into stats, and I know Dundalk will argue that they won't have such a bad night in nets again (even though it's been pointed out as a weakness for years...) but it certainly ties into what I felt watching the game, which is that Rapid were controlling it more than Dundalk. Yes, they won narrowly and I'm not arguing that 4-1 would have been a fairer score. But I do think that if I were Rapid looking at the return game, I'd be focussing on cutting out the crap at the back, and I'm not sure Dundalk (a) can raise their attacking game a huge amount or (b) will get that lucky in front of goal again. I would imagine that Rapid's improvement is easier to come by than Dundalk's.

    All speculation of course - welcome to foot.ie. But that's my reasoning for it.
    Of course its only an opinion, and that's what football / on here is all about. Not sure I am biased towards DFC, I've been very critical in the past, dont think FG is the right man for the job, unhappy with attitude of the players, agreed we deserved nothing from Molde game (due to second half), but still think that was a game that got away last Thursday, far too many mistakes, and better players / players in better form would have scored those chances I listed.
    #DundalkFC - 5 titles in 6 years 2014-2019 / FAI CUP Winners 2020

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  23. #1440
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriel View Post
    but still think that was a game that got away last Thursday, far too many mistakes, and better players / players in better form would have scored those chances I listed.
    I think that's way too narrow a focus though. Better players/players in form is "if my aunt had balls" sort of territory. If Rapid had better players/players in better form, they'd have scored their chances too. I don't think you can just take one side of things like that and draw a conclusion.

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