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Thread: LOI In Europe 2020

  1. #1581
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    TNS is definitely an English-side playing in Wales. Swansea don't suddenly stop being Welsh just because they play their football in the English pyramid
    Not exactly.

    The club was originally formed as Llansantffraid F.C i.e. a Welsh club, located in the tiny village of Llansantffraid-ym-Mechain and playing in the Welsh system (obviously). It was then re-named TNS, after club sponsors Total Network Solutions, a company based in Oswestry, just a few miles away over the border in England.

    TNS then merged with Oswestry Town FC, and the new club started playing at Oswestry Town's ground, making them "English". Except that Oswestry Town had always played in the League of Wales!

    Meanwhile, when Total Network Solutions were taken over by BT, the club had to get a new name, eventually choosing The New Saints, partly to retain the initials, but also because Llansantffraid F.C were always known as "The Saints".

    The club badge also seemed designed to keep both sets of fans on side:



    Probably best to consider them "Anglo-Welsh", thereby ****ing off fans on both sides of the border!

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  3. #1582
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, Chester FC's Deva stadium lies on the border between England and Wales; the border runs along the rear of the east stand (the main stand) with the pitch itself located over the border in Flintshire. However, the ground's address is officially classed as being in England due to the location of the club's offices.

    They had to postpone a game a couple of weeks back because despite it meeting English Covid regulations, the Welsh regulations were stricter, meaning the pitch wasn't compliant!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_Stadium#/map/0
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 02/01/2021 at 5:31 PM.

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    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Very interesting that EG, I stayed in Chester a good few times, knew it was very close to Wales, never knew (as per that map), that a small part (SW area) of the City was actually in Wales by geography at least!
    #DundalkFC - 5 titles in 6 years 2014-2019 / FAI CUP Winners 2020

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    I remember when I was briefly there a few years back being pointed to a bridge which marked the border. If you lived on the Welsh side, you could get free prescription meds, but if you're on the English side (which could be the next street over), you'd have to pay in the same pharmacy.

    There's a football pitch called Zerao ("zero") in Brazil where one half is in the northern hemisphere and the other half is in the southern hemisphere. The half-way line is on the equator. (Although wiki, annoyingly, says they didn't measure it correctly and are about 50m out...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Not exactly.

    The club was originally formed as Llansantffraid F.C i.e. a Welsh club, located in the tiny village of Llansantffraid-ym-Mechain and playing in the Welsh system (obviously). It was then re-named TNS, after club sponsors Total Network Solutions, a company based in Oswestry, just a few miles away over the border in England.

    TNS then merged with Oswestry Town FC, and the new club started playing at Oswestry Town's ground, making them "English". Except that Oswestry Town had always played in the League of Wales!

    Meanwhile, when Total Network Solutions were taken over by BT, the club had to get a new name, eventually choosing The New Saints, partly to retain the initials, but also because Llansantffraid F.C were always known as "The Saints".

    The club badge also seemed designed to keep both sets of fans on side:



    Probably best to consider them "Anglo-Welsh", thereby ****ing off fans on both sides of the border!
    I know all about the club's history. The 'New Saints' was a nod not just to Llansantffraid but to both towns, as Oswestry was named after St Oswald (''Oswald's Tree'). Oswestry itself was once in Wales, and some of the street names in the town are in the Welsh language (i.e. their names 'in English' that is - not just that they're bilingual signs).

    Oswestry Town FC only played in the Welsh system for a few years prior to merging with TNS. They played in various English leagues for decades prior to that, covering the vast majority of their existence. A couple of Oswestry clubs playing in England have formed and folded since the merger (the latest - FC Oswestry Town- folding only very recently)

    The bottom line is that they're based in and play out of a town in England. So they're an English club, regardless of their original heritage.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 03/01/2021 at 3:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I remember when I was briefly there a few years back being pointed to a bridge which marked the border. If you lived on the Welsh side, you could get free prescription meds, but if you're on the English side (which could be the next street over), you'd have to pay in the same pharmacy.

    There's a football pitch called Zerao ("zero") in Brazil where one half is in the northern hemisphere and the other half is in the southern hemisphere. The half-way line is on the equator. (Although wiki, annoyingly, says they didn't measure it correctly and are about 50m out...)
    Chester's walls were originally Roman built, but then added to by the Anglo-Saxons to keep the Welsh at bay.

    Did anyone tell you the old story about it being legal to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow inside Chester's walls after dark ?

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Chester's walls were originally Roman built, but then added to by the Anglo-Saxons to keep the Welsh at bay.

    Did anyone tell you the old story about it being legal to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow inside Chester's walls after dark ?
    Is that still on the statutes? Id love to have seen that tested in the courts

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    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    The bottom line is that [Derry City are] based in and play out of a town in [the United Kingdom]. So they're [a British] club, regardless of their original heritage.
    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    The bottom line is that [Glasgow Celtic are] based in and play out of a town in [the United Kingdom]. So they're [a British] club, regardless of their original heritage.
    Good luck with those ones...

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    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Is that still on the statutes? Id love to have seen that tested in the courts
    More here: http://www.chester.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Shoot_the_Welsh

    I've heard tell of a similar "law" giving the Welsh similar rights over the English on their side of the border, but can't find a reference. (Could be wrong, mind)

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    There are clubs based in America/Australia that consider themselves firmly Serbian/Croatian/Macedonian/Italian/Polish etc I think if you try and view a clubs nationality or
    identity firmly through a black and white lens almost like a footballing bureaucrat the you are depriving yourself of one of the most joyous, interesting and significant facets of football as a world game. I hope I should never in my life feel so entitled as to tell a football club and those involved with what nationality they are.

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  13. #1591
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Thankfully the GFA helps with this argument in the Derry City circumstance by redefining the state as the people rather than a patch of land, semantics maybe but we know how important presentation is in N.I. In other examples I would see (historical) cultural identity as different from (current) nationality. Notre Dame may call themselves the fighting Irish but they're are firmly American collegiate teams in every way, Glasgow Celtic - Scottish, Cork City - nowhere thats not Cork...

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    More here: http://www.chester.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Shoot_the_Welsh

    I've heard tell of a similar "law" giving the Welsh similar rights over the English on their side of the border, but can't find a reference. (Could be wrong, mind)
    Its amusing either way and there are others, but I thought there was a sweeping bill that removed all archaic laws from the statutes but maybe it was here and not in the UK.

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    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    In response to EYG's (imo simplistic) assertion that The New Saints are just an English club which happens to play in Wales, I might equally have claimed eg that John Aldridge was just an Englishman who happened to play for ROI (or Ray Houghton a Scot etc).

    Fact is, UEFA really do not like clubs playing outside of their (geographical) Association's territory, since it opens up a whole can of worms. However, they are sometimes prepared to make exceptions. With TNS, it was out of respect for their obvious Welsh heritage; with Cardiff/Swansea/Newport/Merthyr it was because they had always played in the English system long before there even was a League of Wales; and with Derry City/LOI it was what you might call force majeure (civil unrest).

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    In response to EYG's (imo simplistic) assertion that The New Saints are just an English club which happens to play in Wales, I might equally have claimed eg that John Aldridge was just an Englishman who happened to play for ROI (or Ray Houghton a Scot etc).

    .
    You can say that as its a fact, nothing wrong with it but Aldridge was English and Houghton was Scottish.
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  18. #1595
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neish View Post
    You can say that as its a fact, nothing wrong with it but Aldridge was English and Houghton was Scottish.
    Of course they were.

    But you cannot/should not ignore their Irish heritage which entitled them to play for ROI.

    Whereas EYG wanted to ignore completely The New Saints' clear Welsh heritage which entitles them to play in the Welsh League.

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  20. #1596
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Its a correct argument but heritage allowed them to take Irish citizenship as required so its more than heritage that saw them able to play for Ireland as English or Scottish. To base things entirely on heritage then Glasgow Celtic are entitled to play in the Ireland Leagues. I understand the point being made but its a lot more convoluted in general.

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    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Its a correct argument but heritage allowed them to take Irish citizenship as required so its more than heritage that saw them able to play for Ireland as English or Scottish. To base things entirely on heritage then Glasgow Celtic are entitled to play in the Ireland Leagues. I understand the point being made but its a lot more convoluted in general.
    I'm not basing things "entirely on heritage", rather I was contradicting EYG when he completely ignored/dismissed TNS's Welsh heritage.

    But now you mention them, Celtic have rather less "Irish" in them than TNS have "Welsh".

    Perhaps you meant Hibernian?

    https://foot.ie/threads/11886-Hibern...-Irish-History

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Meh, Ive never followed Scottish football in any great detail bar some minor curiosity with the antics of the native and non native following of the Old Firm. I was college with a chap from Arbroath so kept an eye out there but generally and entirely unfairly to the rest of Scottish football I saw it as toxic especially when most often on this Island the team picked to support was based on your religion. I dont think you can ever really dismiss the heritage of a club even as it evolves. Dundalk recognise the railway heritage of the club even though its not far off a century since there was any connection. It can be a minefield when looking at the foundation of some clubs and how they and support evolved be they English-Welsh border clubs, Scottish or Irish or British.

    I wonder do many Irish 'republican/nationalist' Arsenal supporters revile the whole poppy thing but yet don the club jersey regularly. How many clubs supported widely have a British military heritage that is conveniently airbrushed out, but similar would not happen if there was some Irish connection to their founding for example? Football origins had a triadic intertwined relationship of military, monarchy, and church - mainly Anglican (social, political, and cultural identities in other terms) so to cherry pick aspects of clubs' various heritage is a folly imo. especially when used to express some aspect of contemporary identity. Much easier to stick with the Irishman that saved Barcelona!. For much of the 1970s GSTQ and Abide with me, were drowned out by the crowd at FA Cup Finals such was the disconnect between fans and national identity. Started to shift again post Falklands War, and now almost all the ceremonial bits to the game are military rather than civilian in nature. A bit random above but some football fans almost rabid support and hatred for rival clubs can be filled with irony or just be baffling! (not suggesting it has happened here, just a general thing when considering some of the Irish support of British clubs mainly).
    Last edited by Nesta99; 06/01/2021 at 2:16 PM.

  23. #1599
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Of course they were.

    But you cannot/should not ignore their Irish heritage which entitled them to play for ROI.

    Whereas EYG wanted to ignore completely The New Saints' clear Welsh heritage which entitles them to play in the Welsh League.
    Is that so...?

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    So they're an English club, regardless of their original heritage.
    Strange to be accused of ignoring something that you've specifically referenced

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by DCWA View Post
    There are clubs based in America/Australia that consider themselves firmly Serbian/Croatian/Macedonian/Italian/Polish etc I think if you try and view a clubs nationality or
    identity firmly through a black and white lens almost like a footballing bureaucrat the you are depriving yourself of one of the most joyous, interesting and significant facets of football as a world game. I hope I should never in my life feel so entitled as to tell a football club and those involved with what nationality they are.
    There's also a President in America who thinks he won an election he didn't Americans are the worst for this type of 'fluid' identity tbh. You meet one who tells you "Hey - I'm Irish !", before revealing that they think their great granny was from Cork or somewhere a couple of hundred years ago.

    America and Australia are 90+% immigrant nations. Almost everyone there came from somewhere else, so all have alternative heritages (and most multiple-alternative heritages). But there is a difference between where you're actually, legally and factually from and where you may choose to identify with.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 11/01/2021 at 6:14 PM.

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