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Thread: 3 tier league

  1. #101
    Seasoned Pro marinobohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    TV like more regular "big matches" Super Sunday etc etc and a top six playing off against each other for the league and euro places could offer more meaningful matches and less walkovers.
    An 8 team middle section with top 4 promoted and bottom 4 going down is an extended promotion / relegation play off and this particular section could easily see crowds increase as everyone scraps for positions.
    the bottom section is a dead rubber but the bottom 6 teams in the first division have crowds so low that they would have a negligible impact on overall attendances.

    Is this the solution to the main problems in the league 100% no .....but of the rejigs put forward it has as much merit and probably more than most.
    No one could argue that the current scenerio is good for players or clubs , repeated Friday/Monday/Friday fixtures, midweek games that attract small crowds, close season of 6 months for the first division......the list go's on.
    In the absence of the real problems being addressed and i can't see much hope of that anytime soon , worth considering other things.
    Can’t get TV coverage now (or limited) but they will be queuing up to pay for same 6 teams playing each other every second week ? Who exactly will be in this “bidding war” for TV rights ?
    Clubs will downscale budgets (except maybe top 2) to allow for potential loss of bigger gates/games. How will that improve teams (other than top 2) ?
    Half the League promoted/relegated every year is not exciting it’s confusing. Any novelty would disappear after one season - a continuous multi season relegation battle is not the attraction for fans/investors/ anyone that you appear to think.
    Jettisoning half of the first division before it even starts? Progress ?
    So, apart from a handful of clubs at the top of the first the proposal offers little if anything.

    Sorry to appear so negative but still waiting to hear one reason to see this as positive.

  2. #102
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Add in too the fact that for 8 teams, their points would have to be reset halfway through the season under one proposal.

    "A huge six-pointer...until the points get docked" just doesn't have the same ring to it

  3. #103
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    That's the killer for me. Harps and UCD knew from fairly early on this year that we would likely be the bottom two, and neither had a realistic chance of making the top 6- meaning we would have an entire home and away series that was effectively meaningless as we waited for the second section of the season.

    Equally a good start in the first division and a club could skate home for a long enough section. Am not sure the format would reduce dead rubbers at all. If there was some fair formula of carrying over points it might, but that would be messy enough as well.

  4. #104
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    To use the championship in England as a (bad) example.

    The Current TV Rights deal is worth €685m Euros (£595). £119m/€137m per season.
    There are 15 playoff games - which is roughly 8% of the total fixtures.
    Can we assume that the Football league playoffs are worth 8% of that TV revenue €10.96m per year?

    If Lucid can negotiate a TV deal for the league of Ireland worth (finger in the air) €10m over 5 years. No sniggering.
    With a Championship Playoff round does that figure become €11m? Is there monetary value to any potential TV deal for a championship playoff. I use the word potential loosely.
    Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 16/10/2019 at 1:05 PM. Reason: I can see people reading this going - whats he on about now
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  5. #105
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    A play-off and a split are two very different things.

    A play-off is 5 games (per division) at the end of a 550-game season to decide one final promotion spot.

    A split as proposed (bottom four in the Premier with top four in the First) can render half a season utterly redundant, with all points reset, as I and Mr A have outlined. What's the monetary value of that?

    And I'll snigger all I want at Lucid's 10m figure. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush as they say. Let's get 10m for the league now and then look at improving things.

  6. #106
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdManRun View Post
    https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-38585265.html

    Excellent explainer of the All-Island League plan here. Hard to say it lacks detailed research, just a case of having the funds to back it up and make it viable!
    As predicted, here comes the PR spin and reading through this thread some are already falling for it, including the journalist who wrote it.

    It certainly isn't an "excellent explainer" as ThirdManRun claims.

    I found it hard to get past the journalist stating "when you shackle its even more debilitated brother, the NIFL Premiership, to it". To claim that the NIFL premiership is even in a worse state than the LOI is quite frankly laughable.

    Then Lucid uses what a former chairman of Glentoran once said and discussions he had with him as providing the starting point etc is frightening. At that point in time, Glentoran were facing going to the wall, and were desperate to grasp any straw. Ask any Glentoran fan about Ralph.

    However, the part to take from that interview paragraph is this.

    "I'm very careful how I choose my words here," he says. "The IFA were cool on the idea, that would be the word. They need to see more meat on the bone and that's a phrase they use very regularly." At least they've taken the bone via a few meetings and that's more than many envisaged. Besides, why not as there's a benefit beyond just money, with Lucid talking about better pathways for players, thus better national teams."

    Why does he need to be careful in what he says? Would it be that far from being cool on the idea, they were closer to being at -1oC?

    A bone has substance. Nothing that has been put forward has substance, so to suggest that there something to put meat on is nonsense.

    Pathways for players and better national teams? Really, the IFA are going to support something that in reality would damage everything the IFA have being doing in the last number of years to stem players from declaring for the South!


    Let's not get carried away.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    Can’t get TV coverage now (or limited) but they will be queuing up to pay for same 6 teams playing each other every second week ? Who exactly will be in this “bidding war” for TV rights ?
    Clubs will downscale budgets (except maybe top 2) to allow for potential loss of bigger gates/games. How will that improve teams (other than top 2) ?
    Half the League promoted/relegated every year is not exciting it’s confusing. Any novelty would disappear after one season - a continuous multi season relegation battle is not the attraction for fans/investors/ anyone that you appear to think.
    Jettisoning half of the first division before it even starts? Progress ?
    So, apart from a handful of clubs at the top of the first the proposal offers little if anything.

    Sorry to appear so negative but still waiting to hear one reason to see this as positive.
    No problem with you being negative, i'm only borderline positive myself on this if even.
    I'm not saying there would be a Q of TV companies just that in terms of attractiveness matches between the biggest teams are "more" attractive so it has to be a plus ...
    Attendances are arguable, would Harps or UCD attract more people to their matches against Derry and Cork when they are bottom 2 in the current setup or for the visit of Longford and Drogheda where a win might keep them up if they were pushing for top 4 in the new Div 1.....i will bow to Mr A or Stu on that one
    Either way none of this matters unless the FAI start getting money in from the Govt and can afford to start investing in the league.

  8. #108
    Seasoned Pro marinobohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    No problem with you being negative, i'm only borderline positive myself on this if even.
    I'm not saying there would be a Q of TV companies just that in terms of attractiveness matches between the biggest teams are "more" attractive so it has to be a plus ...
    Attendances are arguable, would Harps or UCD attract more people to their matches against Derry and Cork when they are bottom 2 in the current setup or for the visit of Longford and Drogheda where a win might keep them up if they were pushing for top 4 in the new Div 1.....i will bow to Mr A or Stu on that one
    Either way none of this matters unless the FAI start getting money in from the Govt and can afford to start investing in the league.
    Agreed, bottom line is the need for real investment and a centralised plan on how to develop the League over the next 5-10 years. Maybe the largesse previously wasted on JD and his payment package will be better spent on developing the league, possibly by covering registration fees to some extent ? I understand the current fees to be ridiculously out of proportion to potential winnings.

    Personally I would like to see 2 X 10 team divisions (I would like 12 per Division but just don't think there is sufficient clubs currently available). home/away fixtures against each of the other 9 clubs + cup games. Stick with this simplified structure and work on the promotional side with a centralised FAI approach to promote the League (clubs still free to do their own promotion). financial support, where available, in the first instance to League wide initiatives.

    I believe a strong, stable and well promoted league has more chance of getting some TV coverage (and hopefully a deal) than a convoluted mish mash structure. As mentioned earlier I think the 'threat' of relegation would have a negative effect on clubs seeking new investment or fans and I am not sure the potential carrot of promotion would have an equal offsetting effect for First Division clubs.


    Anyway, no doubt we will be having a similar conversation in 2/3 years when the next masterplan is unveiled
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    I'm going to throw my tuppence worth in . If the clubs are hell bent on a restructure i would be in the camp of and all island league which in my opinion we should not rush. Let the North change calendar first which they are doing and run a cross border All Island Cup first to test the water. A possible sponsor is already out there in the unite the the union cup.
    I think we need to wait to see if Brexit poses many obstacles first and if the clubs go for it it should be about building a 15/16/18 club full time professional league .
    Then and only then can we talk to TV companies . As it stands the league is too condensed . As far as a TV deal goes we may have to wait until the national team rights are up again as that seems to be the only leverage we have and it should be used properly and on our terms . Assuming Virgin and RTE are bidding we really need to put a value on our own leagues TV deal with strict criteria . Say for example its Ireland internationals for a four year deal at 8m (i havnt a clue re figures) Well then it becomes 10 million for the 4 years and 2 mill forms the League broadcast rights . We decide the amount of games that suits the league structure (sometimes less is more) and we insist on a proper behind the scenes type MOTD programme. Streaming games is explored and the clubs control their own highlights as in social media etc . And if the TV company do not fulfill the contract , a penalty is invoked. 500k per year goes into the prize pot. Seems like pie in the Sky but i feel that the bigger TV companies wont want to loose out on International games . Sell the rights to the FAI cup separately as i feel it is lumped in and has no value . I'm sure i am way off on figures but i think a summer league has great potential for TV rights. Our FAI just happened to give them away for free and i know that previously RTE had to be forced to show LOI but if thats the case give them and the international rights to its competitor.

    As for the current league i think the Sponsorship is way way off for its title sponsor, reportedly 250k a year. Some clubs alone can get a third of that for a jersey deal so work it out yourself re the amount of publicity Airtricity gets.

    As for the structure of the current league i think 2 main issues need addressing. Marketing and scheduling. The second one is an easy fix. Make the season 4 weeks longer on the back of player welfare and make the EA cup first an second round - pre season fixtures . That would eliminate midweek games somewhat . If we have to have them keep them local .
    Marketing should be a priority . It needs money but why not ring fence a 5% levy of Euro prize money for a marketing and development budget
    Worth thinking about . Plenty right with the league and i personally think a split of whats there at the moment will do more long term harm than good
    Last edited by ashbournebohs; 16/10/2019 at 4:59 PM.

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  11. #110
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashbournebohs View Post
    Let the North change calendar first which they are doing*
    Not true. No decision has been taken to alter our season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    As predicted, here comes the PR spin and reading through this thread some are already falling for it, including the journalist who wrote it.

    It certainly isn't an "excellent explainer" as ThirdManRun claims.

    I found it hard to get past the journalist stating "when you shackle its even more debilitated brother, the NIFL Premiership, to it". To claim that the NIFL premiership is even in a worse state than the LOI is quite frankly laughable.

    Then Lucid uses what a former chairman of Glentoran once said and discussions he had with him as providing the starting point etc is frightening. At that point in time, Glentoran were facing going to the wall, and were desperate to grasp any straw. Ask any Glentoran fan about Ralph.

    However, the part to take from that interview paragraph is this.

    "I'm very careful how I choose my words here," he says. "The IFA were cool on the idea, that would be the word. They need to see more meat on the bone and that's a phrase they use very regularly." At least they've taken the bone via a few meetings and that's more than many envisaged. Besides, why not as there's a benefit beyond just money, with Lucid talking about better pathways for players, thus better national teams."

    Why does he need to be careful in what he says? Would it be that far from being cool on the idea, they were closer to being at -1oC?

    A bone has substance. Nothing that has been put forward has substance, so to suggest that there something to put meat on is nonsense.

    Pathways for players and better national teams? Really, the IFA are going to support something that in reality would damage everything the IFA have being doing in the last number of years to stem players from declaring for the South!


    Let's not get carried away.
    I found it to be a decent explainer in the sense of the overall format, duration and make up of the plan. I’m not privy to the finer details, which seems dont currently exist.

    Personally speaking, the reason I find the proposal to be so appealing is because it offers a fresh landscape for clubs to latch onto and move towards a more professional and sustainable future. Speaking with a pure LOI bias, as I don’t know the inner workings of the NIFL. I’d love to hear opinions on pros/cons from all stake holders in both leagues?

    Clubs have come and gone in LOI due to lack of support (ie Kildare/Kilkenny), but if you’re pairing Linfield v Waterford or Bohs v Glentoran, all of a sudden you have new rivalries with large support bases already in place, not to mention dormant or new fans. Surely that has an appeal?

    The new academy program UEFA are running up north seems purely based around preparing players to move to England / Scotland, so I don’t think an All-Island League makes it anymore obvious for a player to declare either way, as a large number of players that will reach senior international level will probably never play in the proposed league anyway!

  13. #112
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdManRun View Post
    it offers a fresh landscape for clubs to latch onto and move towards a more professional and sustainable future.
    What parts gave you that view?

    And what does that sentence actually mean? It sounds like pure marketing speak

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    What parts gave you that view?

    And what does that sentence actually mean? It sounds like pure marketing speak
    New opponents, new grounds, new players, new coaches, new rivalries between fans.

    Playing twice a season at a weekend, versus 4 times a season with a game every 4 days.

    Linfield would likely compete with Rovers / Dundalk for the title, so additional title rivals. You would expect a more competitive race for Europe / Relegation battle too.

    It’s hardly outlandish to suggest all those factors would lead to a reinvigorated club scene?

  15. #114
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    How's that going to happen though?

    An AIL is miles away. In any event, any bump of excitement for Sligo fans gained from going to Larne instead of Bray will surely be temporary.

    And the split model doesn't really bring any of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    How's that going to happen though?

    An AIL is miles away. In any event, any bump of excitement for Sligo fans gained from going to Larne instead of Bray will surely be temporary.

    And the split model doesn't really bring any of those things.
    If the All-Island League was to start tomorrow the divisions would line up as :

    PREMIER DIVISION

    Ballymena, Bohemians, Cliftonville, Coleraine, Cork City, Crusaders, Derry City, Dundalk, Larne, Linfield, Shamrock Rovers, Sligo Rovers, St Patrick's Athletic, Waterford FC,

    DIVISION ONE NORTH

    Carrick Rangers, Drogheda United, Dungannon Swifts, Finn Harps, Glenavon, Glentoran, Institute, Loughgall, Portadown, Warrenpoint Town

    DIVISION ONE SOUTH

    Athlone Town, Bray Wanderers, Cabinteely FC, Cobh Ramblers, Galway United, Longford Town, Limerick FC, Shelbourne, UCD, Wexford

    Theres a lot more scale to generate interest when there’s a new team rocking into town for a one off home game, rather than playing home and away twice. Again, looking at it with an LOI bias, I would be a lot more interested in seeing new players and teams in a one off game than seeing Rovers v Pats cancel each other out because they’ve played 4 times already.

  17. #116
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdManRun View Post
    I found it to be a decent explainer in the sense of the overall format, duration and make up of the plan. I’m not privy to the finer details, which seems dont currently exist.

    Personally speaking, the reason I find the proposal to be so appealing is because it offers a fresh landscape for clubs to latch onto and move towards a more professional and sustainable future. Speaking with a pure LOI bias, as I don’t know the inner workings of the NIFL. I’d love to hear opinions on pros/cons from all stake holders in both leagues?

    Clubs have come and gone in LOI due to lack of support (ie Kildare/Kilkenny), but if you’re pairing Linfield v Waterford or Bohs v Glentoran, all of a sudden you have new rivalries with large support bases already in place, not to mention dormant or new fans. Surely that has an appeal?

    The new academy program UEFA are running up north seems purely based around preparing players to move to England / Scotland, so I don’t think an All-Island League makes it anymore obvious for a player to declare either way, as a large number of players that will reach senior international level will probably never play in the proposed league anyway!
    Do you not see the conflict in the two parts I have highlighted in your post. There are NO details, let alone finer ones and therefore how can you assume that there will be a "sustainable future".

    Large support bases do not support the rational that such will necessarily travel to venues that will more distant. In fact, once the novelty wears off, you could see a decrease. The NIFL Premiership has seen year on growth in attendances and in terms of financial security.

    UEFA are not running the new academy. They have provided some funding, that is all. Don't let their PR spin cloud your thinking. The IFA have set it on the back of their CLUB NI programme to try and box off players to help "encourage" players to declare for them. They have also realised, that going forward, less kids will get a chance across the water and need to secure as many of them as possible within their own area.

  18. #117
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    As predicted, here comes the PR spin and reading through this thread some are already falling for it, including the journalist who wrote it.
    .
    Ewan MacKenna has a massive following among Dundalk fans for his incredible insights on the finances of the LoI..

  19. #118
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Ewan MacKenna has a massive following among Dundalk fans for his incredible insights on the finances of the LoI..
    And what? Trump has a massive following amongst Americans!

    All he has written was a puff piece and while at it has tried to belittle the NIFL Premiership by stating that it is even more debilitated than the LOI, which certainly demonstrates he has little or no insight into the NIFL Premiership and its clubs.

    It was hardly a secret to say that a PR push was coming in the run-up to the meeting. McKenna, as will others help push it along, rather than dig deep.

    All that glitters.......

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    Seasoned Pro Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Ewan MacKenna has a massive following among Dundalk fans for his incredible insights on the finances of the LoI..
    He was widely derided on Oriel Web for his recent Dundalk/Peak 6 article. Many regard him as a sensationalist 'hot-take' journo who enjoys courting controversy.

    He is the antonym for credibility compared to Daniel McDonnell

  21. #120
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdManRun View Post
    Theres a lot more scale to generate interest when there’s a new team rocking into town for a one off home game, rather than playing home and away twice. Again, looking at it with an LOI bias, I would be a lot more interested in seeing new players and teams in a one off game than seeing Rovers v Pats cancel each other out because they’ve played 4 times already.
    But the Setanta Cup didn't really indicate that. There was initial interest, and then it faded back to normal, and then the IL teams got bored and pulled out. The Scottish Cup isn't packing them in either, yet it's the same premise.

    Why would an AIL - which the IL clubs don't want - be any different?

    The point I've been making all along here is that there needs to be a lot analysis more to any decision than "Yerrah, I think Sligo v Larne would be something different sure"

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