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Thread: 3 tier league

  1. #21
    First Team seand's Avatar
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    One possible (but not ideal) way to carry over points would be to carry over the points from games played against fellow tier 2 teams and not play each other again. So (say) UCD, Harps, Cork and Waterford carry over the 6 results from games among themselves, Shels, Drogs, Longford, Cabo carry over results from their games among themselves. Everyone starts with six games on the board and 8 to come, home and away against the other 4 teams. It's far from ideal in that it undermines the league system, but this whole idea undermines the league system

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, the more I hate it.

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  4. #23
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    This idea seems to be such a mess. If European / promotion places are being offered to clubs in tier 2 or 3 it practically incentivises poor performance in the first round of games!

    How has the All-Island league been brushed aside to such a large extent? Granted the clubs up North may decide against the idea, but I can’t understand any LOI club not being 100% committed to the idea.

    Is there any indication as to why the LOI clubs aren’t completely invested in the AIL or is it purely based on the fact they feel clubs up north won’t go for it?

  5. #24
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calcio Jack View Post
    Seems like a plan designed to reduce the league within a few years to a single division of 10 teams- as if implemented as suggested can’t see why ‘second tier’ clubs would want to put in the effort !! So a back to the future where bottom team goes for re-election and or a non league team seeks their place .
    I think UEFA don't allow a single tier structure. You have to have two divisions, with promotion/relegation between them. I think.

    Ultimately though, none of what's being discussed here is remotely the main point. EatYerGreens' post is the key issues.

    And remember - the FAI's stated goal with all this is to get the LoI up to 25th in the UEFA rankings by 2025

  6. #25
    Youth Team bohsmug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post

    The following isn't completely ideal, but would at least give almost everyone an incentive to push themselves for the whole season.

    Top team: Champions League
    Second place: Europa League
    Third Place: Europa League playoff vs Tier 2 winner
    Top 5 Premier Division following season.
    6th place: Relegation Playoff v Tier 2/3 winner

    Tier 2 winners: Europa League playoff vs 3rd place Tier 1
    Top 4: Premier Division promotion
    Tier 2 runner-up: Promotion Playoff - vs Tier 3 winners
    Bottom 4: First Division

    Tier 3 winners: Promotion playoff - Tier 2 runner up: Winner plays 6th Tier 1.

    Either you have yourself extremely confused or I'm not reading this correctly. You have most of the top 4 of the tier 2 qualifying for the premier division, with the exception of the 2nd placed team who have to play a playoff with tier 3 winners for some reason? Also unless my maths is bogey, you'd only be putting 9 teams in the following seasons Premier Division.

    Either way I don't like this proposal.

    If we were going to have Europa League playoffs, we may have to have the FAI Cup Final a few weeks before the season ends. As the winner of the cup influences the Europa league picture.

  7. #26
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    I hate the idea of (going back to) top half bottom half type system. Most of the pitfalls have already been outlined above but personally one of the most grim seasons in the years Ive been following Dundalk was finishing outside the top half after the split - I say that in the context of subsequent years in the 1st Division, re-election, and time of not being promoted on merit/not in a play-off due to tinkering with the league. Maybe there was a proper consultation process done but a bit like the change to the Summer season this seems to be happening without any evidence that it will make any difference (granted Summer football is a success imo but more good luck than good guidance). It all starts and ends on incentivising clubs and by exension hopefully fans to maintain interest. If there is a change to finances then maybe having prizemoney substantially increase upon even finishing a single position higher?! Various formats including play-offs may help and I suppose we can look to leagues where such systems works as opposed to LoI, I.L. and Scottish examples where it didnt.

    But similar to chatter on invetment in clubs, just 'cause it was awful before doent mean it will again. We have sought change albeit a bit more than tinkering with numbers and midseason splits. Maybe the 28 game season for the tier 1 clubs is to allow this Setanta Cup MKII slots, the fixture carnage (due to Europe) may come to an end. Wouldnt it be great to be in a position to have a proper TV deal even if fixtures are dictated by the broadcaster in due course. I hope that a lot of what is happening is laying foundation for ongoing improvements whatever they may be.

    More info is needed and the breakeven finances, possible wishful thinking, but is very neat and tidy for the FAI almost too much so. As EYG says, better funding eg prizemoney, focused investment in infrastructure where its needed most *cough*, a governing body that wants to actually grow the league and showcase the product properly and takes pride in their domestic competions is when real change will happen and until there is news on these then any league format rejigging is window dressing regardless of where the idea caame from. I'd be just as wary of going back to the days when the league ran itself as I would on FAI indifference but another hybrid ownership model might just work!
    Last edited by Nesta99; 09/10/2019 at 6:53 PM.

  8. #27
    Coach Poor Student's Avatar
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    The second flight isn't quite as puzzling as it seems. You get a mini run-in before the split in the First Division to make the top four and in the Premier to avoid the top four. If you fail to stay in the top four of the second division you have no shot at the Premier Division and Europe next year and miss out on the gates from playing the big boys. Presumably being top of this might allow you to be receive a trophy and be crowned second flight winners? You couldn't attach and reward to it that a top six team wouldn't get otherwise you'd be incentivised to drop into it.

    I cannot figure out for the life of me what the third flight is all about. I can't see what incentive there is to even play that one out.

  9. #28
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohsmug View Post
    Either you have yourself extremely confused or I'm not reading this correctly. You have most of the top 4 of the tier 2 qualifying for the premier division, with the exception of the 2nd placed team who have to play a playoff with tier 3 winners for some reason? Also unless my maths is bogey, you'd only be putting 9 teams in the following seasons Premier Division.

    Either way I don't like this proposal.

    If we were going to have Europa League playoffs, we may have to have the FAI Cup Final a few weeks before the season ends. As the winner of the cup influences the Europa league picture.
    I did get myself confused. That was meant to be Tier 2 fifth place and not runners-up in a play-off.

    Just tried to throw in some sort of equation to the mix that would maximise meaningful games.

    Otherwise, the way I see it, it's the top teams who want this, and the rest is nonsense.

  10. #29
    Youth Team bohsmug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I'd be just as wary of going back to the days when the league ran itself
    That's an important point.

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  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Otherwise, the way I see it, it's the top teams who want this, and the rest is nonsense.
    I don't even see why the current top teams would want this. What if things went tits up on the field with Dundalk or Rovers and they slump into a 2nd half of the season playing in a league with Cobh or Cabinteely, good luck with your projected gate receipts and sponsorship deals to pay 20k+ per week wage bill

    I have seen all too many utterly stupid actions, ideas, proposals in over 20 years following the LOI but this new structure is taking the pi$$ and will be the final nail in the coffin for the LOI
    The Leinster Senior League needs a strong Bohemians

  13. #31
    Seasoned Pro marinobohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D24Saint View Post
    The whole thing sounds convoluted and like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
    This. Another example of the Abbotstown idiots trying to "do something" about LOI (or at least be seen to try)

  14. #32
    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    This. Another example of the Abbotstown idiots trying to "do something" about LOI (or at least be seen to try)
    In fairness this seems more club driven than FAI. Last night there were reports that an 8 team league was favoured by clubs and today there have been multiple conflicting reports on whats possible. One being that a club rep has said that they are a good bit away from finalising things. 2020 will remain as is so there is room for further consultation and decisions. The FAI say Nial Quinn has withdrawn offered supports but he himself has said thats not the case. So are journalists jumping the gun, speculating or are different clubs hearing what they want to hear at these meetings - driving their own personal agendas that hamstrung the leagues admin of the league in the past. Couple that with the FAIs penchant for spinning things eg dismissing the Quinn angle.

    Next step is to see what Lucid's crowd have put together but to turn IL heads there will have to be a significant pot of cash already confirmed for that project if it is to gain traction. From a purely selfish point of view if there is to be a new cross border competition with the money involved that was there for the early Setanta Cup years then it's a feasible stepping stone. The biggest indication on the intent of the IL is if the even slightly adjust their calender for an earlier/later start to their season. Again possibly laying some ground work to ease things for any future transition. It's what I am tenuously hoping that the above proposals are for in having clubs batched on merit for future admittance to all island competitions with 'regional' tiers below competing for access. Certainly none of this cherry picking clubs on who they think might offer more or less to a new division as that was a mess and not just cause I'm a Dundalk fan and we lost out, and would have been excluded if the cross border plans being driven by Drogheda United at the time had kicked on. It was a closed shop system initially proposed too. Reading about decisions still well up for discussion has added to my hopes that this is all a more thoroughly thought through changing things up - and will be backed by more money and tv deal et al. In other words not been as hastily pushed as initially seemed.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 09/10/2019 at 11:57 PM.

  15. #33
    First Team Mr_Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdManRun View Post

    Is there any indication as to why the LOI clubs aren’t completely invested in the AIL or is it purely based on the fact they feel clubs up north won’t go for it?
    Possibly because, like for the club's in the North, there is little, if any, substance to the AIL proposal. Lots of words, video promos, pushing forward ex players (players who wouldn't have the first notion of what it takes to run a football club), and spinning finances and statistics to make it look attractive. Club's don't want or need the gloss. They want the cold hard facts, ie "show me the money" that supports this deal. They also need to see the built in security and where the risk lies. From the little that is out there, the risk seems to be to the clubs themselves and not Lucid. It appears to be built on a potential TV deal. But we all know, like Setanta, such deals can disappear very quickly and then who is left holding the can.

    Expect lots more PR spin in the coming weeks in the lead up to the 24th October presentation, with the press regurgitating press releases without doing any investigative journalism on them and more pr videos.

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  17. #34
    First Team seand's Avatar
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    Regarding all-Ireland league the very first essential commitment that I'd require is a cast-iron guarantee from UEFA that we'd keep the 8 European places (one more than England and Spain!!!) that Lucid seems to think is feasible. If that were possible then anything is possible. If it's not possible then you've a massive problem replacing that incentive and income (especially north of the border).

    The reunification of Ireland may simplify things ;-)

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    After the first series of games whats the point of the last six in the first division playing on, the top four positions are the only places worth fighting for at the start. The remaining six are only playing for positions 5th to 10th with no relegation and I doubt there is going to be much of a financial incentive to be 10th or 9th!

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  20. #36
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    LOI needs more teams, and for that needs to be a more attractive prospect. The investment to do that isn't forthcoming, so we get this unnecessary face-lift, just the latest in a long line of unnecessary face-lifts. It won't improve the league.

    Id wager Limerick were the odd one out. With the state we're in we shouldn't get a say anyway.

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    For the Tier 2 teams could they offer the winner one of the Scottish Challenge cup spots and maybe the top 2 into some kind of preliminary Setanta cup round as an incentive if they didn't offer a European playoff and similar for Tier 3 give the winners a Scottish challenge cup spot. Of course there are no guarantees that the SCC will continue to invite LOI reps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    Regarding all-Ireland league the very first essential commitment that I'd require is a cast-iron guarantee from UEFA that we'd keep the 8 European places (one more than England and Spain!!!) that Lucid seems to think is feasible. If that were possible then anything is possible. If it's not possible then you've a massive problem replacing that incentive and income (especially north of the border).
    That'd be some achievement, given that the combined European places for the island is now only 7

  23. #39
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Parker View Post
    Possibly because, like for the club's in the North, there is little, if any, substance to the AIL proposal. Lots of words, video promos, pushing forward ex players (players who wouldn't have the first notion of what it takes to run a football club), and spinning finances and statistics to make it look attractive. Club's don't want or need the gloss. They want the cold hard facts, ie "show me the money" that supports this deal. They also need to see the built in security and where the risk lies. From the little that is out there, the risk seems to be to the clubs themselves and not Lucid. It appears to be built on a potential TV deal. But we all know, like Setanta, such deals can disappear very quickly and then who is left holding the can.

    Expect lots more PR spin in the coming weeks in the lead up to the 24th October presentation, with the press regurgitating press releases without doing any investigative journalism on them and more pr videos.
    If the AIL ever happened, a huge issue would be what day / time for matches. There is no way LOI clubs will go for 3pm on a Sat, and not sure IL clubs would go for Friday nights, so what is the solution?

    The 3pm Sat ko is obv suiting most of IL clubs as their players work Mon- Fri, prob train Tues and Thurs nights, could some go full time training in the am?

    Back to the KO time though, Sat tea time / evening?
    #DundalkFC 5 titles in 6 years 2014/2015/2016/2018/2019

  24. #40
    First Team seand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    That'd be some achievement, given that the combined European places for the island is now only 7
    NI will be back up to 4 for 2021-22 I believe

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