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Thread: Nations League Rules Discussion

  1. #21
    Reserves davidatrb's Avatar
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    I donít think we want that we would be away to Wales and then have Bosnia (home away decided by draw). I think weíd prefer a 5th League B team. And then one be drawn into Path A (hoping us) then we are 2nd ranked behind Iceland and have home advantage vs a League C team.

    Anyone agree or disagree with what the rubbish im spouting or does nobody have a clear idea of all the scenarios?

    Or nobody cares? In which case Iíll shut up!

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidatrb View Post
    But itís the only place Iíve seen that describes doing a draw for over filled Paths. The balls video just implied they were moved up based on rank.
    There is no draw, that the point, check out page 36 of that poxy pdf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    There is no draw, that the point, check out page 36 of that poxy pdf.
    No draw to select the teams. But then to form the paths there is. Look at page 41. And the latest news on uefa website article (uefa euro 2020 playoffs as they stand) and the process described on the wiki.
    Last edited by davidatrb; 11/09/2019 at 2:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidatrb View Post
    Or nobody cares? In which case I’ll shut up!
    Keep up the good work but I'm putting all my eggs in the automatic qualification basket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidatrb View Post
    No draw to select the teams. But then to form the paths there is. Look at page 41. And the latest news on uefa website article (uefa euro 2020 playoffs as they stand) and the process described on the wiki.
    In that hypothetical Uefa pdf, page 25, once the Euro finals qualified teams are taken out of the play off equation, only the group winners are guaranteed of being in their league playoff.
    If the pathway to the league play offs was to be determined by Nations league ranking
    then League B play offs would have Ned, BIH Wales Turkey page 34

    But the element of a pathway draw changes it to Ned Wales Turk NI and seeded position in that play off is determined by Nation league placing.

    Page 52 League C, Scotland are in 5th place (Nations league ranking), they take up the one available empty slot in League C, a top 4 play off position, but they don't actually play off against the 3 other teams from League C.
    They just enter a draw with other like teams to determine which Play Off group they enter, that could be league A,B or C play offs.
    I have to say I never saw that one coming, UEFA in their desperation to have a high profile draw somewhere along the line, suspended logic.
    Scotland's natural place is with League C play offs.

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    Another scenario could emerge, a self defeating one for Uefa
    Part of the spiel when this NL was being promoted was that a lower ranked team in League D could have a genuine pathway to the Euro Finals by winning their group and then a play off competition against their peers. But we could realistically have a situation whereby Kosova could qualify automatically and the other 3 league D group winners could, instead of the next ranked League D side, play off against a stronger team, possibly a league A team or say one of Switzerland, Denmark or Ireland. The higher ranked team would have home advantage in the semi final and 50/50 chance of home adv in the final.
    Last edited by geysir; 11/09/2019 at 4:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Another scenario could emerge, a self defeating one for Uefa
    Part of the spiel when this NL was being promoted was that a lower ranked team in League D could have a genuine pathway to the Euro Finals by winning their group and then a play off competition against their peers. But we could realistically have a situation whereby Kosova could qualify automatically and the other 3 league D group winners could, instead of the next ranked League D side, play off against a stronger team, possibly a league A team or say one of Switzerland, Denmark or Ireland. The higher ranked team would have home advantage in the semi final and 50/50 chance of home adv in the final.
    Well in that situation Luxembourg take Kosovo place in the playoff. And then since four League 4 teams in Path 4 they will still all form a Path together.

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    Jeez, taht media briefing doc would do your head in.

    Iím at work so havenít much time but my recollection is that last year we spoke about draws etc but Geysir came up with another official UEFA statement confirming thereíd bo no draws!

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    In that hypothetical Uefa pdf, page 25, once the Euro finals qualified teams are taken out of the play off equation, only the group winners are guaranteed of being in their league playoff.
    If the pathway to the league play offs was to be determined by Nations league ranking
    then League B play offs would have Ned, BIH Wales Turkey page 34

    But the element of a pathway draw changes it to Ned Wales Turk NI and seeded position in that play off is determined by Nation league placing.

    Page 52 League C, Scotland are in 5th place (Nations league ranking), they take up the one available empty slot in League C, a top 4 play off position, but they don't actually play off against the 3 other teams from League C.
    They just enter a draw with other like teams to determine which Play Off group they enter, that could be league A,B or C play offs.
    I have to say I never saw that one coming, UEFA in their desperation to have a high profile draw somewhere along the line, suspended logic.
    Scotland's natural place is with League C play offs.
    Scotland will be in the League C play off.

    As will Norway, Serbia and Finland, if they do not qualify automatically, as they won their mini groups in the NL, and that means they cannot play a team from a higher group.

    The only potential movers from C to B or A, would be the likes of Isreal/Bulgaria/Romania etc, if Finland or Serbia for example were to qualify automatically.

    As for Sky getting Ireland's position wrong, who is surprised?

    When the Nations League was announced the Sky and it's former player pundits denounced it as a Mickey Mouse tournament that meant nothing to anyone..

    Until England won their group are were suddenly in a European Cup semi final..

    The Nations League going forward is going to be a massive tournament. It has huge implications for countries like Ireland.

    The seedings for the next world cup qualifiers, will be based on how teams are ranked after next years NL tournament, which means the best Ireland can hope for is to be in Pot 3/4.

    But, if they win their group and get promoted back into Group B for the 22 edition of the NL, they will almost be guaranteed a play off for the 2024 Euros in Germany

    Barring a weird confluence of events, all Group B teams will qualify for a play off for the Euros every time, so it's imperative to get back there.

    Also, if you somehow manage to win Group B, and get to Group A, you would be guaranteed two (and possibly 3 if the NL goes to 4 team groups), huge games in the Aviva every 2 years. Imagine being in a group with England/Germany/France/Italy/Holland/Spain etc

    Compared to being in Group C with Cyprus/Bulgaria/Isreal/Hungary etc

    Which group would make it easier to sell season tickets and fill stadia?

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  14. #30
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    Yeah, I couldn't understand that scenario analysis in that UEFA media briefing. Did it pre-date the UEFA league? Scotland won their group so automatically secure a playoff.

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    Is there any criteria about host countries possibly being kept apart in these playoffs?

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    Oh catch up Del!

    Post #6 of this thread: "c. Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval by the UEFA Executive Committee, including seeding principles and the possibility of final tournament host associations having to be drawn into different paths."

    Note the word "drawn". I think we debated this last year. I cited it as proof that there was a draw, Geysir stood his ground saying there is no draw, and I conceded that it might be a German/French to English translation thing - not what we would call a (random) draw, more the result of a mechanical outcome - "having to be placed into different paths".

    But that's to digress, yes, there is such a provision. In fact this clause c is basically a UEFA wild card if they want one.

    PS: Tets: thread title s/b Nations League, not National League

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  18. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insidetherock View Post
    On the other hand, maybe UEFA will decree that even if there is only one team in Group A (Iceland), the Group B pathway must be completed first from Group B teams before you start bringing up teams from Group C to make up the Group A pathway
    Haven't they already said that?

    "If four or more teams from a league enter the play-offs, a path with four teams from the league in question must be formed"

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  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidatrb View Post
    No draw to select the teams. But then to form the paths there is. Look at page 41. And the latest news on uefa website article (uefa euro 2020 playoffs as they stand) and the process described on the wiki.
    It says that as things stand there'll be a draw between Bulgaria, Israel and Hungary to be allocated to a pathway. Each came second in their League C groups, with different points.

    Final Nations League Rankings are here: https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleag...d=2601504.html

    Bulgaria are actually ranked highest of these 3 (Romania came 4th in this mini grouping of League C second placed teams on Goals Scored), then Israel, then Hungary (Israel > Hun also on GS).

    The current UEFA blurb says it's a draw which playoff path these teams go into, but we thought it should be purely mechanical. Pathway A is a residual process - the best of what's left. Bulgaria, being best of these teams should go into their own play off path; if that's full into the B path and if that';s full into the A path. Is that not what we thought before?
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 12/09/2019 at 4:01 PM.

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    It is going to be tough for Ireland then two tough games vs League B standard, and possibility both matches are away from home. Much much easier to qualify automatically which will also give us a better seeding ...

    Likely be
    SVK (or WAL) vs Ireland (away game for us as lower rank) with winner meeting the winner of BOS vs NIR (a draw for home or away in the final).

    Better if we could get 5 League B teams into the playoffs ie have Kosovo drop Czech into the playoffs, or Slovenia keep Austria in playoffs.

    Then we can "escape" Path B into Path A by way of the draw (are we all agreeing its a draw now?). Path A in reality will be full of League C teams and maybe Iceland, having Iceland out of Path A would be good too.

    Actually that would do it - two birds with the one stone - Iceland auto qualify, Turkey dropped into playoffs. Leaves 5 League B teams BOS/TUR/SVK/IRE/NIR. 25% chance we escape and have a Path A IRE vs ROM winner playing winner BUL vs ISR.

    I say 25% chance because Bosnia can't move - group winners have to stay in their Path - or do they if there are no League A teams in Path A - the stipulation is that Group Winners cannot enter a Path with a higher League team but in this case they wouldn't be. They'd probably prefer to.

    They might do a draw as in page 62 of the poxy pdf - as there are 8 teams left after forming Path C and all teams mean group winner stipulation will be fine. In the pdf they split it into 4 pots ranked ... so BOS/TUR drawn into one Path as top team, SVK/IRE drawn as next team, NIR/BUL draw as next and finally ROM/ISR as 4th team. If they decide to do it that way then we have home advantage again vs NIR or BUL and final vs probably BOS or TUR.... still better than the other scenario (where we are locked in with all the League B teams) in my opinion.

    It seems a bit random.

  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    Is there any criteria about host countries possibly being kept apart in these playoffs?
    I don't think that will apply. Denmark and Ireland are the only likely hosts to be involved in the playoffs and it cant be both. There will be only one host in the playoffs it would seem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidatrb View Post
    I don't think that will apply. Denmark and Ireland are the only likely hosts to be involved in the playoffs and it cant be both. There will be only one host in the playoffs it would seem.
    Scotland (definitely), Ireland/Denmark as you say, but also Romania and Hungary look like they could end up in there, no? I presume Azerbaijan are pretty much gone?

    Or do you mean our particular section of the playoffs?

  24. #38
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    Sorry, I must have been have asleep when i wrote that reply DeLorean. Yeah it will probably come into it, could separate us from Hungary or Romania in the case we "escape" Path B - in fact they will probably force us to stay in Path B.

    But (I've marked the hosts)

    https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/draws/round=2001111/

    Current standings
    On the basis of the current European Qualifiers standings, the following teams would be involved in the play-offs:

    Path A: Switzerland, Netherlands(H), Iceland, Bulgaria/Israel/Hungary(H)*
    Path B: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Austria, Wales, Bulgaria/Israel/Hungary(H)*
    Path C: Scotland(H), Norway, Serbia, Bulgaria/Israel/Hungary(H)*
    Path D: Georgia, North Macedonia, Kosovo, Belarus

    *In the current scenario, a draw would decide which of Bulgaria, Israel or Hungary would fill the empty slot in Path C, which would compete in Path B and which would go into Path A.
    Scotland and Hungary hosts. They could draw between Bulgaria/Israel and put Hungary in Path B. That would separate the Hosts currently in the playoff positions but they mention a draw between all three instead.


    I think they will make up the format of the draw at a later date ... the only conditions:

    https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...5_DOWNLOAD.pdf

    16.03 The UEFA administration conducts a draw to allocate teams to the different playoffs path, starting with UEFA Nations League D, subject to the following
    conditions:
    a. A group winner cannot form a path with a team from a higher-ranked league
    in the overall UEFA Nations League rankings.
    b. If four or more teams from a league enter the play-offs, a path with four teams
    from the league in question must be formed.
    c. Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval by the UEFA
    Executive Committee, including seeding principles and the possibility of final
    tournament host associations having to be drawn into different paths.
    Last edited by davidatrb; 13/09/2019 at 8:24 AM.

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  26. #39
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    Geysir's view?

    Why is there a "draw" to form path D? No draw is needed. This is what makes me reluctantly think Geysir may be onto something. There was a UEFA web page last year that said there'd be no draw! Although multiple evidence exists in rule books and accompanying explanation docs, web pages etc that there may be a draw if needed.

    The principle that you fill the paths from the bottom up should make everything straightforward, though possibly unfair / counter-intuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Geysir's view?

    Why is there a "draw" to form path D? No draw is needed. This is what makes me reluctantly think Geysir may be onto something. There was a UEFA web page last year that said there'd be no draw! Although multiple evidence exists in rule books and accompanying explanation docs, web pages etc that there may be a draw if needed.

    The principle that you fill the paths from the bottom up should make everything straightforward, though possibly unfair / counter-intuitive.
    I'd agree with that too.

    Which is why I am hoping that no more than 6 teams automatically qualify from Group B


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