UK Election

[jofyisgod]

Council Tax is the single most unpopular tax in the country - and to a large extent that is because it is nothing more than a poll-tax.I'm very active within the Lib Dems, and have yet to hear of the parties intentions to scrap this particular policy (though that doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned).

Firstly, fair play for being involved in party politics-no matter what your allegiance, it is a positive thing and should be applauded. The article was in The Guardian last Monday, i believe, i'll try and retrieve it from the recycling box to check later. It was basically saying that Kennedy realised it wasn't a winner, etc. The policy did actually discriminate slightly against 'average income' families, although i would hasten to add that the 3 parties' ideas of average income differs amazingly. I think we all want something to be done about Council Tax, and there is an enquiry underway, by order of the PM, into finding some sort of alternative.

You should be deeply concered if Labour's spin has burned its way that deeply into your cranium....

That was tongue in cheek! Still, I believe it to be true in part, certainly in my constituency, maybe not so much in others.

[hamish]

Who's this addressed to Sirhamish.....?

The first paragraph is from post 31 above jofyisgod - that his name.
My reply is to his point and also to your general points.

Sorry, guys, I do not know how to put in multiple quotes from more than one post so it's hard to target in and agree/disagree with particulat points.
Help/advice plus any kicking you're gonna give me always appreciated, dcfcsteve

I read that in King's constituency there are over 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims. Did she not even have meetings with this constituency or its representatives before she made that vital vote. Given the subsequent vote it would appear
that she wasn't very much in touch with their opinions. I mean, to go from a TEN THOUSAND majority to an 800 approx loss is one helluva fall and to an outsider who obviously was more in tune with those Muslims than she was.

Now she's either 100% Ms. Integrity to take that risk if her vote base is anti-war and/or very arrogant. Wait a minute, wasn't that also said of George Galloway?

Post 37 was also my reply to your comment re. my throwaway remark re MPs - I'm afraid that I have witnessed far, far to many MP/TDs in dodgy dealings to regard the House of Commons/Dail as a vestible of the pure and decent. It does not equate with all woman are etc - that's a cheap and silly comparison to make - but I'm also aware of out and out corruption among FAR TOO MANY public reps - local and national. Have you read Private Eye lately - no, it's not my gospel but contains a lot of verifiable truths. Have you heard of the McCracken, Flood, Hutton etc etc tribunals? 99% my ass.

I'll give you a couple of Irish under the radar examples that occur within the npolitical sphere in the next post just to show how endemically and deeply corrupt the whole system is here and in UK. SEE POST47

[hamish]

Hear hear. SirHamish, i fear, is spouting the shíte fed to him daily by the mass tabloid media-'It's cool to dislike/show no interest in' Politics. I confess i know less of the situation with TDs, but i can safely say that 99% of MPs are in Parliament for all the right reasons.

Man, did I glean above that you and DCSteve are Guardian/Observer readers. Some am I, for 10 years. I've already stated that in other posts. So whose spouting ****e about reading mass tabloid media? You obviously must be reading these tabloids to know what they're saying which annoys you. I don't read them therefore I can't spout them.

(OK OK I get the IRISH Daily Star the ODD Tuesday for the Junior/Schoolboy soccer scores reports - that's it, period)

For the record, I have never missed a vote for any election since I got the vote - this is my fourth decade of voting and I am a member of Amnesty among others plus a past member of the Green Party which I vote for now.
So your points above are based on absolutely nothing/nada/nowt/nil/thin air.

I wouldn't be assed to write these posts is I felt it was cool to dislike politics, would I? Show no interest? See the paragraph above this one. I just have a healthy quizzical attitude to politicians and their motivations/behaviour/general moral attitude - to legal wars and suchlike, I couldn't care less who/how many they shag as long as the wife/husband knows/agrees and it was concentual,

Where did you get the 99% good guys? The Guardian recently published every constituency/every candidate/all votes. I intend to check all the winning candidates out and if I get even 49% level as oposed to your 99% level, I promise - it's on Foot.ie record = to make dinner for you and partner whenever you pop over this way with various alcoholic additions.
If you are a vegetarian , then fcuk off!!!
How's that for fairness?

The above may take time, I'm not very mobile these days but I'll have a go. If I'm not able to complete the task, I'll ready up and admit it. Dinner still stands, except fpr fcuking vegetarians.

Now, how can I be fairer than that?

[hamish]

Example one. Local, Petty but wrong.
An acquaintenance of mine who was a county council representative arrived for a meeting and declared £xx travel expenses. He was asked, "Did you travel alone or with other councillors?" He replied, "NO, on my own". Unfortunately, another member of his party, in a power struggle with him within the party, had earlier JUST HAPPENED to mention , that my acquaintenance had come down with him along with two other councillors in the same car. Uproar. First, you had a false declaration for public money ie YOUR and MY money and also a pretty nasty piece of shafting by a rival party associate. This is of course low level and petty and common but if the roots are corrupt...................?

Example 2. Local/National. Petty but wrong.
A very good friend of mine, active/very high level in local politics until his recent death told me of one unbelievable story. A party colleague, town councillor was visiting a relation in Tipperary. They went out for a pint and bumped into a councillor who was also in Tipp. Councillor 2 said, "Are you down for the convention? Councillor 1, "No, Just visiting family down this way. Councillor 2, "Why not pop over the convention, I'll get you registration etc." Councvillor 1. "Why not, I'll drop in for a little while.
All happened.
As proceedings ended, Councillor 2 called over Councillor 1 and said, make sure you fill in the expenses sheet. Councillor 1 was a little surprised and stated that he was only a visitor not a working member of the Convention.
You're registered in, who the hell is going to check?
Result, £750+ punts for our "visiting" councillor.
If the roots are corrupt..............???
This was not an isolated case.

Farmers on health boards, one who attends at most 2 meetings a year and the odd ribbon cutting makes more from health board plus county council plus urban council plus god knows what else that his farming income is a fraction of his other income. People wonder why the health system is fcuked. Many reasons - there's one of them.
This is not an isolated case. If the roots are corrupt.................?


Fcuking great country.


Wonder why I'm a little skeptical? Wait until I get started on that Guardian list of elected reps. Who knows what I find?

But I won't make blanket, catchall,. emotional, presumptive, tar'emallwithonebrush, stickonlabels like you lot do and without a shred of evidence. Home work first. Opinions afterwards based on as many facts as can be obtained.

That dinner and this isn't a corrupt statement - I'm a pretty good cook! But I don't cook humble pie - hope you lot can.

[dcfcsteve]

The first paragraph is from post 31 above jofyisgod - that his name.
My reply is to his point and also to your general points.

Sorry, guys, I do not know how to put in multiple quotes from more than one post so it's hard to target in and agree/disagree with particulat points.
Help/advice plus any kicking you're gonna give me always appreciated, dcfcsteve

I read that in King's constituency there are over 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims. Did she not even have meetings with this constituency or its representatives before she made that vital vote. Given the subsequent vote it would appear
that she wasn't very much in touch with their opinions. I mean, to go from a TEN THOUSAND majority to an 800 approx loss is one helluva fall and to an outsider who obviously was more in tune with those Muslims than she was.

Now she's either 100% Ms. Integrity to take that risk if her vote base is anti-war and/or very arrogant. Wait a minute, wasn't that also said of George Galloway?

Post 37 was also my reply to your comment re. my throwaway remark re MPs - I'm afraid that I have witnessed far, far to many MP/TDs in dodgy dealings to regard the House of Commons/Dail as a vestible of the pure and decent. It does not equate with all woman are etc - that's a cheap and silly comparison to make - but I'm also aware of out and out corruption among FAR TOO MANY public reps - local and national. Have you read Private Eye lately - no, it's not my gospel but contains a lot of verifiable truths. Have you heard of the McCracken, Flood, Hutton etc etc tribunals? 99% my ass.

I'll give you a couple of Irish under the radar examples that occur within the npolitical sphere in the next post just to show how endemically and deeply corrupt the whole system is here and in UK. SEE POST47

Sir Hamish - read my previous posts. I've stated all along that Oona King was a horrible patronising ass-sucking New Labour toady. The fact that George Galloway is an absolute cu*t doesn't change that, and vice-versa.

Secondly - I note that the examples you give of corruption are primarily Irish. I'm not saying the 'UK' (and I don't buy-in to the idea of a 'United Kingdom', as an aisde) is devoid of scandal, but the only example you were able to give was of a leader ignoring common sense to lead the country into a war. Not someone looking to line their own pocket. Bad none-the-less, but on an arguably better angle than most of the sleaze in Ireland. Irish politics has a history of being incredibly corrupt - fact. Which has also had a huge influence on the US system - from Tamanney hall onwards. Anyways - just cuz you're used to a few Hick councillors in the bogs of Ireland being corrupt doesn't mean you can write-off everyone involved in politics in Ireland, and particular the UK. Catch yourself on....

[hamish]

Sir Hamish - read my previous posts. I've stated all along that Oona King was a horrible patronising ass-sucking New Labour toady. The fact that George Galloway is an absolute cu*t doesn't change that, and vice-versa.

Secondly - I note that the examples you give of corruption are primarily Irish. I'm not saying the 'UK' (and I don't buy-in to the idea of a 'United Kingdom', as an aisde) is devoid of scandal, but the only example you were able to give was of a leader ignoring common sense to lead the country into a war. Not someone looking to line their own pocket. Bad none-the-less, but on an arguably better angle than most of the sleaze in Ireland. Irish politics has a history of being incredibly corrupt - fact. Which has also had a huge influence on the US system - from Tamanney hall onwards. Anyways - just cuz you're used to a few Hick councillors in the bogs of Ireland being corrupt doesn't mean you can write-off everyone involved in politics in Ireland, and particular the UK. Catch yourself on....

dcfcsteve - maybe we shouldn't be writing this hour of the morning,
Firstly, "just cuz you're used to know a few Hick councillors in the BOGS of Ireland.."

Is that the best you can really do, dcfcsteve??? These were mere examples of a few local and not so local councillors. There simply is not room to cite all the examples I could give from the national/local press/internet/radio-local and national/magazins etc etc etc.

Using puerile derogatory terms like bogs of Ireland is as idiotic as the other catchall terms you and Jofyisgod use and a sad attempt to cover up the waver thin arguements you are trying to justify.

Did you not read my posts that I was going to cover, from the Guardian election pages, all the elected BRITISH/UK results/winners - was that not crystal clear enough for even you to understand?

I mentioned HUTTON above - did you miss that. Course you did, doesn't fit your arguement. I mentioned Private Eye above..oops..missed that too. Then sure you can also give that magazine a blanket put down too. I think I made it pretty obvious that I was going to attempt to assess as many MPs as possible - missed that too eh?

I have already compiled quite a number of verifiable examples from the UK of shall we say, cross fertilisation involving parties, companies, MPs, councillors etc. When I check to see if these people are still elected the I'll start to post the examples. I might even throw in a few who lost seats if it involved any element of dodgy carry on.

I merely used local issues as a lead into beginning my observations on the UK scene. Missed that too, I guess.

I read your comments on Oona King and like you I also criticised her and Galloway. I gave reasons why I'm less than impressed with King AND Galloway. You mentioned King. Why is Galloway a ".........****". Examples please. What has he done/not done that is so wrong. Educate me!! I've read his recent book. Now let's hear the other side. Evidence please, not slapped on catch all put downs.


dcfcsteve - when you tell people to "catch themselves on" best look in the mirror because your reply was disjointed, arrogant and utterly failed to absorb my variety of points which tried to cover a wide area of debate.
I also made them in a friendly atmosphere which only amplifies the pettiness of your reply. Ok maybe I live near bogs but you know the old saying, "you can take the man out of the bog but not the bog out of the man".
Anyone for a background check? Your good self maybe?


And I did not say I was going to write off everyone. Look above again, I mentioned a target figure of FORTY NINE PER CENT. EVERYONE = 100% Comprende?

[hamish]

Jesus, I haven't even started my run through the MPs but on Sky News Active this morning there's a piece mentioning a newly-created Labour peer - OK OK he's not an MP but a Lord - may have saved £3 million in tax by moving money offshore. Lord Drayson's the name.
Should be fun when I start the Guardian's MPs list.

[jofyisgod]

Should be fun when I start the Guardian's MPs list.

Good Luck! Jeez, you must have some serious time on your hands there!

I've tried to make sense of the above posts and can't 100%, so if my reply is slightly off, i apologise.

I do read Private Eye, and there are tales in there, but above all that is a comic publication. It is done for the amusement of the reader, not to bring down political careers. By all means, there will be b@stards in the Commons, but it truly is a minority. The most high-profile downfall of late is Blunkett, and i think he was more acting out of misguided love than a genuine desire to buck the system.

Galloway is arrogant (NOTE:His speech on election night-"political revolution in London', or words to that effect. Crock of shít). I would never buy or read his book-only gonna line his pocket, and stroke his ego. I feel that Oona King genuinely belived in toppling Saddam Hussein, and was willing to put her career on the line to stick to that belief. If that is not a politics of the heart, i don't know what is.

Off-topic: If you want to do multiple quotes, i usually just copy and past the things again, and then roll down the page to the thread shown below, and copy what i want into the gap. Hope that helps.

[hamish]

Good Luck! Jeez, you must have some serious time on your hands there!

I've tried to make sense of the above posts and can't 100%, so if my reply is slightly off, i apologise.

I do read Private Eye, and there are tales in there, but above all that is a comic publication. It is done for the amusement of the reader, not to bring down political careers. By all means, there will be b@stards in the Commons, but it truly is a minority. The most high-profile downfall of late is Blunkett, and i think he was more acting out of misguided love than a genuine desire to buck the system.

Galloway is arrogant (NOTE:His speech on election night-"political revolution in London', or words to that effect. Crock of shít). I would never buy or read his book-only gonna line his pocket, and stroke his ego. I feel that Oona King genuinely belived in toppling Saddam Hussein, and was willing to put her career on the line to stick to that belief. If that is not a politics of the heart, i don't know what is.

Off-topic: If you want to do multiple quotes, i usually just copy and past the things again, and then roll down the page to the thread shown below, and copy what i want into the gap. Hope that helps.

Hey Jofyisgod - thanks for the advice re pasting. On a lighter note, be careful with your name, Galloway might buy it!!, especially the god bit!!

As regards his over the top statements, that could be applied to far too many public representatives, whatever country they occupy. In this TV age, with a diminishing audiences for politics/news programmes etc soundbites are almost a necessary evil and, boy, does Galloway spout them. No arguements with you there.
I bought the book because the guy intrigues me and I did state that I have me doots about him so we'll see how he pans out in the coming months/years etc. I must confess mavericks fascinate me - like to check them out.
I'm only gonna give the "project" a try - why not? As for time, got lots of it but have no choice sadly - see profile. Gives me more time to pester you and dcfcsteve.
My problem with Oona King is why did she not put her beliefs before her constituents before the vote - that's all. 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims deserved that. She surely could have made her intentions known to their representatives. Maybe she might have got their support. Obviously she lost her seat because she signally failed to either convince them of her beliefs or just ignored them - big mistake either way. Is it not also egotistical to not consult with one's constituents - genuine beliefs or not?

Private Eye might have a comic element but it was one of the few media elements which stuck its head above the parapet when the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 crises were in full swing and we had "eminent" judges talking about "appalling vistas". Nothing comic about that. Besides satire is often a terrific way to cut through the humbug of political/business BS that contaminates so much of life today. Easy to slap a comic label on it - it has a role to play.
I'd forgotten, for example, that Hutton had a previous whitewash in Norn Iron until Private Eye brought it up after last year's BBC/Kelly/Campbell fiasco.

It's opening pages citing the favouritism involving MPs/business etc gave me the idea re. how many are bent/corrupt/on the make/pick your own term.

Don't know how it will pan out but if I get, say, 150 "bent/partly bent/dodgy MPs, that might be only a relatively small percentage but worrying and even more worrying, how many colleagues looked the other way and did nothing to stop/report any fraudulent activity. Happened in the Dail and we're still peeling that onion.

Let's see how it goes.

Cheers, man.

[jofyisgod]

I'm only gonna give the "project" a try - why not? As for time, got lots of it but have no choice sadly - see profile. Gives me more time to pester you and dcfcsteve.

Ok, i checked. Well, at least it you have time to take part in fascinating projects like this Who knows, you may even get a novel out of it!

I look forward to seeing the outcome, all the best!
Peter

[hamish]

Cheers, jofyisgod/Peter - will give it a try but might have to wait awhile as I've got an eye operation at 11am tomorrow morning but I'm looking forward to Galloway at the US Iraqi thingy in the next day or so - should be a great laugh!!

[jofyisgod]

Cheers, jofyisgod/Peter - will give it a try but might have to wait awhile as I've got an eye operation at 11am tomorrow morning but I'm looking forward to Galloway at the US Iraqi thingy in the next day or so - should be a great laugh!!

All the best for the op-i'm sure you'll be grand. I too am awaiting this Galloway-v-Senate job. Should be good.

Good luck again

[hamish]

Thanks a million, man. Just "saw" it on BBC - whatever we might think about him, he danced rings round the two gobdaws who interviewed him. It was hilarious. Even Fox "News" were in awe!! I suppose they'll relax a while and then start to give him a good kicking in the weeks to come. You're right - he has an enormous ego and appeared to be thoroughly enjoying the attention.

[hamish]

Wrong about "the weeks to come" bit. Fox presented a disgracefully edited version in all bulletins, carefully editing out Galloways blitzkreig against Norm Colman* - under his* watch, billions of oil dollars going missing etc etc. Colman looked like a naughty schoolkid squirming in his desk as his teacher gave him a bo.ll...ing. Great theatre. I see Michael Moore's website and Newshounds website are really enjoying the experience.

[paul_oshea]

hamish did you check out gallloway on the news? was very good. the senators refused to give their promised after "match" press conference.

[hamish]

Yeh POS, Colman did his usual after the event snipe at Galloway re. credibility etc. Hadn't the guts to say it to Galloways face. Typical neocon chickenhawk, good at criticism when in a safe place.

[dcfcsteve]

dcfcsteve - maybe we shouldn't be writing this hour of the morning,
Firstly, "just cuz you're used to know a few Hick councillors in the BOGS of Ireland.."

Is that the best you can really do, dcfcsteve??? These were mere examples of a few local and not so local councillors. There simply is not room to cite all the examples I could give from the national/local press/internet/radio-local and national/magazins etc etc etc.

Using puerile derogatory terms like bogs of Ireland is as idiotic as the other catchall terms you and Jofyisgod use and a sad attempt to cover up the waver thin arguements you are trying to justify.

Did you not read my posts that I was going to cover, from the Guardian election pages, all the elected BRITISH/UK results/winners - was that not crystal clear enough for even you to understand?

I mentioned HUTTON above - did you miss that. Course you did, doesn't fit your arguement. I mentioned Private Eye above..oops..missed that too. Then sure you can also give that magazine a blanket put down too. I think I made it pretty obvious that I was going to attempt to assess as many MPs as possible - missed that too eh?

I have already compiled quite a number of verifiable examples from the UK of shall we say, cross fertilisation involving parties, companies, MPs, councillors etc. When I check to see if these people are still elected the I'll start to post the examples. I might even throw in a few who lost seats if it involved any element of dodgy carry on.

I merely used local issues as a lead into beginning my observations on the UK scene. Missed that too, I guess.

I read your comments on Oona King and like you I also criticised her and Galloway. I gave reasons why I'm less than impressed with King AND Galloway. You mentioned King. Why is Galloway a ".........****". Examples please. What has he done/not done that is so wrong. Educate me!! I've read his recent book. Now let's hear the other side. Evidence please, not slapped on catch all put downs.


dcfcsteve - when you tell people to "catch themselves on" best look in the mirror because your reply was disjointed, arrogant and utterly failed to absorb my variety of points which tried to cover a wide area of debate.
I also made them in a friendly atmosphere which only amplifies the pettiness of your reply. Ok maybe I live near bogs but you know the old saying, "you can take the man out of the bog but not the bog out of the man".
Anyone for a background check? Your good self maybe?


And I did not say I was going to write off everyone. Look above again, I mentioned a target figure of FORTY NINE PER CENT. EVERYONE = 100% Comprende?

Finally getting tound to responding to you now SirHamish (though I would've thought from your notes you'd be opposed to the archaic honours system... ? )

Firstly - I took your earlier comments basically stating that 'any elected political representative is just a crook' personally. I'll ignore the fact that it was a broad sweep-all statement - the kind for which you've been criticising myself and other posters in this thread.

No - I take it personally because I know a number of elected councillors, Mayors, MP's and MEP's on first-name personal terms. I have friends and former work colleagues who have family members who are elected representatives. Not only that, but I am putting my name forward for selection to stand as a Councillor in London next year, and one day hope to be in a position to stand for parliament myself. Obviously, therefore, I and all the people I know who've I've mentioned above are nought but crooks, fraudsters, charlatans, sheisters etc etc - in it for what they can take out, ratehr than what they can do. Well just for the record - I am not, and they are not. So you'll excuse me if I take your broad-sweep opinions somewhat personally....

I think we can all agree that a sizeable number of people within society genuinely and deeply care about what goes on around them. A number of those people will be in a position whereby they can go on to do something to help society. Some will become police officers, charity workers, doctors, social workers and - shock horror - some may even go on to become elected representatives. I don't think anyone is questioning the sincerity of convictions etc held by the rest of the people who help society out in their own individual way. Yet you seem to be of the view that any genuine public service ethic a human being may possess somehow magically gets erased/extracted as soon as they rise to an elected political position. To be replaced instead, alien-abduction stylee, by a rapacious and all-consuming self-interest that from that moment forth guides their every thought and action.

We all know that a number of people in positions of power and influence are 'bent'. Sadly - since the beginning of time power has had that potential. But if you're genuinely trying to assert that a significant percentage of the UK's MP's - anywhere near 49% of them - are 'corrupt, then I would strongly questioning how you're measuring that corruption. How are you defining 'corruption' ? I used to be Presidnet of my Studens' Union. During my term, I sometime sgot free entry into certain nightclubs in town without having to queue - purely becuase I was SU Pres. On the very odd occassion I'd get given a single free drink when I got in there - no matter if I refused when offered ! It didn't make one jot of difference towards how I fulfilled my role, or how I viewed that club in the context of my role. But surely all of that made me corrupt anyway?

You mentioned before the recent case of a new Labour Minister squirreling his own private money overseas to avoid tax. In other words - criticism of him indulging in legal tax avoidance methods that most of the rest of society also indulge in to whetever degree they can or are aware of. I do tax avoidance. My parents and the rest of my family do it. Any of my friends who are self employed or have bought a house close to a Stamp Duty threshold have done it. Any of their parents who are in old age and have assets over the Inheritance Tax threshold do it. The person I bought my house from did it etc etc. Tax avoidance isn't illegal. Now - you may personally believe that public representatives legally avoiding tax on their own personal money is evidence of corruption. That a public representative should be so pure that as soon as they become elected they should no longer partake in the perfectly legal measures that they would have done were they not elected. I'll admit that it doesn't smell good to have well-off Ministers shuffling their money around to reduce their tax burden, but it certainly isn't corrupt. And if it is - well, hey, change the law and arrest us all.......

It's far too easy these days to slate those who get involved in public life in any way. The media has created a public mindset of crass cynicism towards politics (which admittedly the Tories and Conservatives did much to generate/fuel themselves during their terms in office) which has also impacted how individual politicians are viewed. If you go looking for 'dirt' for your corruption list - particularly if you're using very loose terminology for corrupt activities - then I've no doubt you'll find it, one way or another. I don't see what it will do to address your perceived endemic corruption within the system though, let along improve participation of non-corrupt people within politics. That's not a reason not to compile your list, but as I said - if you go wanting to find something, then chances are you'll find it one way or another.

And ff corruption really is "endemic" within the UK political system, then why do you bother voting ? Surely you're just helping to prop-up the endemically corrupt system by recognising it/playing along, regardless of who you vote for ?

As for my views on George Galloway - I have seen the man speak in public, and I've read enough about him and seen him on TV enough times to have formed a fairly well-considered view of him politically. I haven't read his book, I don't have any statistical evidence to support my opinion that he is a demagogic cu*t. But that's my view anyway. I haven't read any of Bush's books (possibly because he can barely read, let alone write one...) nor met him in person, but I think I've got a fairly clear steer on how I view him politically as well. There's more than one way to form a valid opinion.

P.S. I don't read the Guardian

[hamish]

Thanks for taking the time to write back dcfcsteve - appreciate it and will take time to absorb and give it the reply it deserves.

One thing, you're not the only one who has taken/is taking part in the democratic process so don't give me that BS about the personal aspect. I've heard it all before and it was BS then and is BS now. You'll need a thicker skin than that you know for what you're going into. I can't stand it when elected or prospective public representatives take this "hurt" attitude - it's silly frankly.

If I can't find any/much corruption, then I'll state that. There'll be no manufacturing.

You're making the same old mistake again - blame the media. COME ON.

As I said, just started. Will be back.

By the way, I can concede points too and will if I think you have a good case so cut out the arrogant siht, OK?

[dcfcsteve]

One thing, you're not the only one who has taken/is taking part in the democratic process so don't give me that BS about the personal aspect. I've heard it all before and it was BS then and is BS now. You'll need a thicker skin than that you know for what you're going into. I can't stand it when elected or prospective public representatives take this "hurt" attitude - it's silly frankly.

I said that I took your comments personally - not that I felt 'hurt' by them. There's a big difference.

You're making the same old mistake again - blame the media. COME ON.

I stated that the actions of the Tory and Labour governments had much to blame for the level of public and media cynicism.

By the way, I can concede points too and will if I think you have a good case so cut out the arrogant siht, OK?

What the fecks that all about ? Did you bang your head on the shelves above your computer or something.......?

[hamish]

The media has created a public mindset of crass cynicism towards politics (which admittedly the Tories and Conservatives did much to generate

Steady on, steady on - I haven't even started yet.

Re above quote, I noted in your reply that you conveniently omitted the opening line and stressed the Tories bit - above are your words. By the way, read your own words in that paragraph, you never mentioned Labour in that section. Ever heard of Campbell? So if you cite your own words, don't re-edit them to include Labour.

So, make up your mind, is it the media or the politicians to blame or both.?
How can the media CREATE something if the politicians are to blame - that doesn't make sense.
I feel that BOTH are responsible - no creation involved. It's a feed-off process, isn't it?