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Thread: FAI Cup games

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingswood Rover View Post
    i love cafferys snowballs
    That a new cup competition?I think we might qualify for that.

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    Reserves mcgonigle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmyfaction View Post
    Did the stewards force Dundalk supporters into the stand?
    Cut the horse****. How bad Oriel is has no baring on the fact that Sligo didn't provide sufficient space for the tickets they sold. When Dundalk returned 200 tickets Sligo took the decision to cash in and sell the rest of the stand to home fans at the expense of away fans.

    Everyone in the seats had to stand to see the game as people had to stand on the steps and at the wall which has never been permitted. The whole area behind the goal was taken so unless you were tall you wouldn't be able to see the game.

    I don't mind standing but to give you an idea of the overcrowding. I stood at the back of the stand at the wall behind the last row of seats (my choice). I left my son sitting in the 4th row with his grandad. As the stand filled up people had to stand at the wall and on the steps so the only way he could see was to stand him on the seat in front of me which already had someone standing in front of that. This wasn't isolated, many rows of seats were 2 people deep. Not very safe

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    This is always a molehill that I have no problem being accused of making a mountain out of...

    All actual safety issues aside - it is so risky for a club to allow any level of overcrowding. The burden is on the club/business to prove that they didnt allow overcrowding occur - Online ticket sales, ticket stubs, gate earnings, tally counter etc are used to determine actual numbers. But all of these can be manipulated of course.(It has crossed my mind as a potential reason that some clubs under report attendances at games as in general it never makes sense to me to do so).
    All it takes is for one (even mischievous) attendee or employee, as volunteers are classed, to report an issue to the HSA, for example. An eager or extremely dilligent HSA individual can compell a club (maybe via other agencies) to show it didnt breach safe safe holding capacity in all or parts of a ground - irrespective of stubs, online sales and the like. A picture paints a thousand words and a freezeframe from TV coverage and if there is any doubt the club has to prove it didnt breach regulations rather than prove that they complied with regulation - an arseways way of going about it. But IF there was possible overcrowding and IF a club cannot show there wasnt, the Local Authority/county fire officer et al could be compelled under HSA direction to impose sanctions, punitive fine/close area or both. In an FAI run game there might be some wriggling out of things but they would simply say that the operational staff were from the club, contracted on the FAI's behalf and they didnt ensure the restrictions were adhered to. 'Employee' safety often isnt considered enough by clubs either imo!

    The issue with Oriel's 'Grassy Knoll' is of course a potential liability for the club (as is every public space nationwide on current trends) and if someone lands on their backside on a wet night it could cost the club via a personal injury claim - not the same thing as overcrowding at all. If those at a game were perfectly safe but in an area that was let overfill, not a single scratch on anyone no complaint but the HSA decided to have a look in to it....well I dont know why clubs are not more fussy as it'd be a **** show - and some Dundalk fans are the worst culprits for crowding in to one area. You will probably see the South Stand in the Aviva at the final a lot more packed than it is supposed to be and we saw how the overcrowded area caused seating to collapse (as designed) but there should never have been that weight of a crowd let in to one area. That would be would be on the FAI and security company used. Designate blocks and simply dont allow more in to that block than its capacity. I did end up ranting on this inevitably...
    Last edited by Nesta99; 03/10/2019 at 10:47 PM.

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Its close to a decade that the wall collapsed in the Carlisle Grounds when the Monaghan Utd fans were crushed and still the FAI still havent learnt their lesson. I always assumed that if the away team returned their allocation that the home team is not obliged to sell them to the away fans unless I have missed a trick elsewhere?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    Its close to a decade that the wall collapsed in the Carlisle Grounds when the Monaghan Utd fans were crushed and still the FAI still havent learnt their lesson. I always assumed that if the away team returned their allocation that the home team is not obliged to sell them to the away fans unless I have missed a trick elsewhere?
    I'd reckon that Sligo may have put those tickets up for sale for home fans and I presume there were no tickets on sale on the night to away support. There should still be space for the sold away ticket holders even if the area is reduced by the number of unsold away tickets unless a buffer zone needed to be maintained and squeezed the away area. Or maybe it was a simple miscalculation though not excusable. I'd have thought lessons would have been learned also after a crowd surge in an overcorwded secton in the Aviva caused seats to collapse at a cup final.

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    First Team Nah Nah Nah Nah's Avatar
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    The 200 tickets went on sale in the showgrounds at 11 that morning and went pretty quickly.

    TBH I'm not surprised there's reports of issues in there. The stand looked pretty cramped from my view in the main stand but I thought it was a case that people all wanted to be in together. The only real way we have of segregating that stand is by closing the gates at half way and I would have thought 600 would be a lot in half the seats and the standing area. Standing area didn't look that busy from where I was but not sure if you can only watch the game from against the wall there as am never in that area for a match.

    I'd say if we had a choice we would have given Dundalk whatever amount of tickets is half of the seats and the standing area but I believe the FAI went with giving them tickets for the entire stand and the standing area (sure we can always blame them).

    We made a balls out the segregation for the semi final in 2010 as well. For some reason we decided that the Waterford fans would get a section in the main stand where away fans never are and it ended up with when they all arrived in just before kick off that all the seats were taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah View Post
    The 200 tickets went on sale in the showgrounds at 11 that morning and went pretty quickly.

    TBH I'm not surprised there's reports of issues in there. The stand looked pretty cramped from my view in the main stand but I thought it was a case that people all wanted to be in together. The only real way we have of segregating that stand is by closing the gates at half way and I would have thought 600 would be a lot in half the seats and the standing area. Standing area didn't look that busy from where I was but not sure if you can only watch the game from against the wall there as am never in that area for a match.

    I'd say if we had a choice we would have given Dundalk whatever amount of tickets is half of the seats and the standing area but I believe the FAI went with giving them tickets for the entire stand and the standing area (sure we can always blame them).

    We made a balls out the segregation for the semi final in 2010 as well. For some reason we decided that the Waterford fans would get a section in the main stand where away fans never are and it ended up with when they all arrived in just before kick off that all the seats were taken.
    That would be a plausable reason for the capacity being 600 or whatever with seating for 330 and standing room at the perimeter fence. Not likely to be any view for those not at the front but that wouldnt have much to do with capacity really, an inconvenience that made fans seek a better vantage point may have caused the overcrowding rather than a blatant over selling tickets for the area. Wasnt there so not in a position to judge but it makes more sense than doing the risky stuff of selling 600 tickets for an area for 300 odd.

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    Seasoned Pro Ezeikial's Avatar
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    It's really very simple - if it was safe and feasible to have 330 /400 (whichever is the correct number of seats) in the stand and the balance safely accommodated in the standing area, then clearly the stewards should have prevented additional spectators going into the stand and directed them to this standing area.

    It's fairly obvious that the original intention was to allocate the entirety of the Jinks Ave for the 800 away tickets. When 200 were returned someone made the decision to allocate only 330/400 seats to the 600 visitors without much thought or safety considerations

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    It's really very simple - if it was safe and feasible to have 330 /400 (whichever is the correct number of seats) in the stand and the balance safely accommodated in the standing area, then clearly the stewards should have prevented additional spectators going into the stand and directed them to this standing area.

    It's fairly obvious that the original intention was to allocate the entirety of the Jinks Ave for the 800 away tickets. When 200 were returned someone made the decision to allocate only 330/400 seats to the 600 visitors without much thought or safety considerations
    Agreed! It will be interesting to see if stewards follow the appropriate protocols at the cup final and ensure that people dont cram in to a block/area of the ground thet would result in overcrowding in that area. What I was saying above was that I can see how a section of the ground had x capacity but everyone moved to the one area for whatever reason. It wasnt safe, stewards should have stopped it from happening but its plausable that a section of the ground had sufficient capacity but that fans crowded in to an area in that section and werent stopped. It's wrong, risky, but happens in the Shed in Oriel particulary when there is a big gate, it happens at Tallaght when probably the shed lads all ram in to 1-2 blocks, and it has happened at cup finals in the Aviva in the South Stand. Supporters have a duty of care to themselves and fellow fans not to take up station in an area they dont have a ticket for and whomever is the event controller at such games has to make sure that all their staff are ensuring people only gain access to the area their ticket is for. Designated seating enforcement is ott but not designated blocks!

    I should add that i'm not picking on the shed lads of Dundalk, fans of other clubs do the same eg Im sure the hardcore support at Bohs all ram in to the same end of the Jodi Stand, it could be sold out yet the shopping centre wing would be empty. There will be an incident that results in proper stewerding that is currently lax needing to be required to do that part of their job, volunteer or paid.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 04/10/2019 at 11:25 PM.

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    First Team Nah Nah Nah Nah's Avatar
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    Certainly shouldn’t be happening in Lansdowne as there is assigned seating. This isn’t the case in League of Ireland grounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah View Post
    Certainly shouldn’t be happening in Lansdowne as there is assigned seating. This isn’t the case in League of Ireland grounds.
    This hasn't been the case for at least the last four cup finals - the blocks have been assigned, but haphazardly applied/stewarded, with no attempt to implement assigned seating within the block

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I'd reckon that Sligo may have put those tickets up for sale for home fans and I presume there were no tickets on sale on the night to away support. There should still be space for the sold away ticket holders even if the area is reduced by the number of unsold away tickets unless a buffer zone needed to be maintained and squeezed the away area. Or maybe it was a simple miscalculation though not excusable. I'd have thought lessons would have been learned also after a crowd surge in an overcorwded secton in the Aviva caused seats to collapse at a cup final.
    Was that in last seasons cup final that this happend?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Season before I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Season before I think.
    No no no, Dundalk fans deliberately wrecked those seats. People on here said so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    This hasn't been the case for at least the last four cup finals - the blocks have been assigned, but haphazardly applied/stewarded, with no attempt to implement assigned seating within the block
    It’s the same at Ireland games. Home and away. There’s an attitude from some fans that no matter what seat they have that they’ll just stand wherever they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah View Post

    We made a balls out the segregation for the semi final in 2010 as well. For some reason we decided that the Waterford fans would get a section in the main stand where away fans never are and it ended up with when they all arrived in just before kick off that all the seats were taken.
    Same happened in Limerick for 2015 playoff. Load of home fans put into the away section, a full bus load of Harps fans arrived late and had to stand along the steps, two people to a seat and poor overcrowding of the section.

    I don't think people realise how dangerous these things can be.

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    Reserves Yossarian's Avatar
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    I haven’t seen any official information on cup final tickets yet but I heard from someone in oriel that they are going to be €15.
    You’d think at this stage there would be tickets on sale and some promotion started but I’m not at all surprised.

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    I heard Monday for ticket sales at the match on Friday night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah View Post
    It’s the same at Ireland games. Home and away. There’s an attitude from some fans that no matter what seat they have that they’ll just stand wherever they want.
    Ive been to watch Celtic away in Scotland, England, Spain and Germany. Ireland on numerous occasions, Dundalk every 2nd week including abroad and its always been everyone a case of everyone stands where they want once they are in the away area.

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundalkfc10 View Post
    Ive been to watch Celtic away in Scotland, England, Spain and Germany. Ireland on numerous occasions, Dundalk every 2nd week including abroad and its always been everyone a case of everyone stands where they want once they are in the away area.
    If that is the case it isnt necessarily a correct or safe way to manage a crowd. It boils back down to the possibility of one block being undersubscribed whle another has too many in it. Whatever about designated seating, designated blocks should be enforced though certainly in LoI the practicalities dont make this easy. Large clubs or a cup final it should be s different story. The 2014 league decider in Oriel was pretty well managed with 2 channels running from the entrance zone of the shed at the town end - with shed tickets people directed to the shed, ticket holders for the temporary stand carrick end were channelled past the shed through that route which was cordoned by crowd barriers along the front of the shed and perimeter wall. If that hadnt been done there would have been a potential for 1000 additional people ramming in to limited space in the shed, probably in the couple of central blocks under the TV ganty, who didnt have tickets for that area. Could have been a nightmare and certainly unpolicable, and impossible for emergency services to gain access if needed without using the pitch.

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