UCD manager quits

[Onapointoforder]

@totalhoofball....O’ Neill had little regard for a number the squad. .And then sign a striker to drop your top (only) goal scorer!!! Gone from ‘ I have the best young players in the country’ to using Soccer Republic as ‘blamefest’ forum - - - the squad is too small (23 too small???), the players are too young blah blah blah -and this all before the July break. Could take a leaf from Keith Long - who hardly had a squad of veterans!!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Well I guess we've found the UCD AFC board member among us

[Nesta99]

True, but that's no reason not to have a rational analysis of it.

Being paid for pre-season - or having a certain number of non-amateurs - is all very well, but where's the money going to come from? I get that the PFAI's role is to get more money for its members, but they live in a fairy world at times.

Until we grasp the nettle of the FAI leeching money from the league rather than trying to generate money for it, then you're going to have a club like UCD losing players regularly, or the goings-on in Athlone or Limerick.

What and when did things change at UCD when they did have a number older players like Ciarán Kavanagh playing. Were they student doing Masters, for example, or did UCD have a policy of having a number of 'senior' players signed up. Also wasnt there a time where LoI UCD players couldnt play for the college in varsity competions?

It's a difficult situation when the system at UCD (currently) means that a team that gets promoted one season could be very different to the one playing the following season - be that due to players graduating or the best young talent being plundered by other clubs. Another question there - if a player is 19 say at UCD and is signed by another club I presume it effects their scholarship. Is there an argument that players offered a scholarship must stick with the college until they finish their course? I know you cant really tie a player down to such an extent but it does make a bit of a mockery of the scholarhsip sustem. It's arguable that if a club doesnt have the resources to pay players a minimum wage for work done pre-season or throught the season then their participation should be looked it. I say that knowing the financial volatility in the league but consider it as if the league has moved to a stable and sustainable financial footing.

LoI by nature, certainly in the past, has had clubs achieve on merit and then could have almost a complete change of squad season to season with single yearly contracts, and be a basket case within months. Imo non 52 week contracts should not be allowed and gotten rid of over phased period. It's not particularly good for the league to have clubs that can ship 10 goals in a game though of course can happen irrespective of the system of player recruitment at a club like UCD. By extension there is debate around whether an amatuer club should be allowed compete in the highest tier of football. If a Cabinteely get promoted and are a cannon fodder amatuer side this is a diccussion that will be had no doubt. I understand though that it s better than having clubs not pay players as per contracts. At least a club like Cabo can have a long term plan to turn semi pro/pro. UCD's setup is more complex - maybe they should have a requirement to have say 5 FT players, It Is messy though. For a league that has aspirations to develop in to a professionally administered, better standard of product on and off the playing fields these tHings need sorting. It is very GAA like to have people on a Board that poke noses in to team selection for their family members and use influence to oust managers!

[pineapple stu]

What and when did things change at UCD when they did have a number older players like Ciarán Kavanagh playing. Were they student doing Masters, for example, or did UCD have a policy of having a number of 'senior' players signed up.

UCD aren't that different to other clubs. From, say, 95 to 08, we had a core of experienced players because we could afford to keep them at the club after they graduated. Like all clubs, the economic crash cut the budget, and of course it'll impact smaller clubs more - because really, budget cuts come out of wages in the end. We have a team of scholarship students now because that's all we can afford. If, let's say, there was proper prize money in the league or we had bigger crowds, we'd be a solid Premier side again.

Another question there - if a player is 19 say at UCD and is signed by another club I presume it effects their scholarship. Is there an argument that players offered a scholarship must stick with the college until they finish their course?

This is what Farrugia did. I presume he's lost his scholarship, though there was a suggestion Rovers would pay it (or an equivalent amount in cash)

t's arguable that if a club doesnt have the resources to pay players a minimum wage for work done pre-season or throught the season then their participation should be looked it. I say that knowing the financial volatility in the league but consider it as if the league has moved to a stable and sustainable financial footing.

I think football - or any sport - has to be exempt from minimum wage issues. It's effectively a hobby. Most of us play it for free. We'd happily take E50/week even if it was below minimum wage. And ultimately most of the players don't remotely earn their salary in a pure economic sense; there's a lot of fundraising going on to boost club coffers.

If the money was there and players had earned it, I'd have no problems obviously. But the PFAI's argument only tries to put a professional sheen on something whose biggest problem is that it isn't professional.

[Onapointoforder]

Is there just the one board member....or just the one that counts!!! Not guilty your honor!!

[Nesta99]

I think football - or any sport - has to be exempt from minimum wage issues. It's effectively a hobby. Most of us play it for free. We'd happily take E50/week even if it was below minimum wage. And ultimately most of the players don't remotely earn their salary in a pure economic sense; there's a lot of fundraising going on to boost club coffers.
But the PFAI's argument only tries to put a professional sheen on something whose biggest problem is that it isn't professional.

I agree in general but when you are playing football as a job, or on a career pathway then it differs from playing as a hobby. Once a player is signed on a paying contract starting first day to the season then they should be payed during the preseason preperations also.

Apologies for all these questions Stu! Does UCD value the profile that UCD AFC gives to the collge playing in a country's top level of the game or as often can be the case it is classed by some as an unnecessary financial burden - not an easy question to answer I know as opinions will vary but in general? Does the college have many on the football clubs board, are people employed/paid by the college or the clubs as a seperate entity (withinn the budget contribution) After qualifying for Europe recently and the prizemoney that went with, i presume that is additional money for the football club and the college wouldnt cut their contribution by that approximate amount or try to absorb prizemoney (hypotheticaly if UCD qualified again its large sums of money). In otherwords the football club is in most ways seperate from the college and would operate entirely seperately if sufficient income was generated and would be renting facilities etc as other clubs would?. Could another club eg Cabinteely merge with UCD. There is a reason to my questions Stu but again apologies for the digging - nothing negative, just trying to gauge the set up.

[pineapple stu]

I agree in general but when you are playing football as a job, or on a career pathway then it differs from playing as a hobby. Once a player is signed on a paying contract starting first day to the season then they should be payed during the preseason preperations also.

I don't agree that LoI is a job though. For the vast majority of players, it isn't. How many professional clubs do we have for example - Cork, Dundalk, Pat's and Rovers? So I just can't see that normal rules need apply for something which most people do for free anyway.

If players do want to get paid for pre-season, there's going to need to be a recognition that wages will drop. So if a 39-week contract is €400/week, that's €15.6k in total. If you want to get paid for 45 weeks, then your pay needs to drop to €345/week so the club still end up paying you the same total amount. Anything else is to suggest that already hard-up clubs can magic money out of somewhere. And I don't see the PFAI calling for that.

Apologies for all these questions Stu! Does UCD value the profile that UCD AFC gives to the collge playing in a country's top level of the game or as often can be the case it is classed by some as an unnecessary financial burden - not an easy question to answer I know as opinions will vary but in general? Does the college have many on the football clubs board, are people employed/paid by the college or the clubs as a seperate entity (withinn the budget contribution) After qualifying for Europe recently and the prizemoney that went with, i presume that is additional money for the football club and the college wouldnt cut their contribution by that approximate amount or try to absorb prizemoney (hypotheticaly if UCD qualified again its large sums of money). In otherwords the football club is in most ways seperate from the college and would operate entirely seperately if sufficient income was generated and would be renting facilities etc as other clubs would?. Could another club eg Cabinteely merge with UCD. There is a reason to my questions Stu but again apologies for the digging - nothing negative, just trying to gauge the set up.

Short answer is I don't know for sure obviously.

The European money was kept by the club, and the college helped out with the European run (in fact, they loaned the club the money to pay for the trips because UEFA prize money isn't paid until later)

Scholarships aren't unique to the football club. Lots of sports clubs benefit from them. The women's hockey team (some of whom were on the Ireland team that got to the World Cup Final last year) are on the outside walls of the sports centre for example. And inside, there's posters of various recipients in various sports in action. The college's High Performance Centre is a college thing, not an AFC thing, and all clubs benefit. So I think the sports side of things overall - of which the football club is the biggest - is seen as a positive.

The club operates under the Athletic Union Council, which is the governing body for all UCD sports clubs. I don't think anyone on the AUC is on the board, but the club is answerable to them. And there'd be a close enough working relationship obviously.

I don't see that Cabo could merge with UCD to be honest. Shamrock Rovers once asked about playing home games in Belfield Park and were told it wasn't an option; it was college only. Cabinteely-UCD FC would have be merging two very separate ethoses, and I don't see how it would work. I've heard it said before that something like Stillorgan Athletic FC would be of no interest.

If the college pulled funding, then there'd be a hole in the budget. That hole might be too big to fill, but in theory the club could continue to operate.

Again, none of the above would be definitive. Just my surmising.

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't agree that LoI is a job though. For the vast majority of players, it isn't. How many professional clubs do we have for example - Cork, Dundalk, Pat's and Rovers? So I just can't see that normal rules need apply for something which most people do for free anyway.

In fairness, the majority of Premier Division clubs operate on a full time basis. Derry, Waterford and Sligo are full time too. They might not all pay 52 weeks, but for 40 weeks of the year, it's the only job of those players.

[Nesta99]

Just for clarity, I wasnt suggesting that UCD should merge with another club, just wondering whether AFC were independant enough from the college for it to happen. Similarly if someone decided to pump some money in to the senior football side of things whether the college would take exception to not having a significant say in what goes on.

[Mr A]

Ironically, the advent of the national underage teams probably impacted UCD's budget- the teams don't come cheap and that's more pressure on the senior budget.

As for the PFAI comments- crazy stuff. I have heard Stephen McGuinness say before that clubs should have voting rights proportional to the number of professionals they have. They care about nothing but getting more money for their members, and don't care about the league or clubs beyond that. They seem to want more of a voice in Irish football.. they would maybe want to grow up a bit if they want to be taken seriously.

[pineapple stu]

I think we're on to at least three different threads at this stage, so feel free to split!

Just for clarity, I wasnt suggesting that UCD should merge with another club, just wondering whether AFC were independant enough from the college for it to happen. Similarly if someone decided to pump some money in to the senior football side of things whether the college would take exception to not having a significant say in what goes on.

I don't think the club could make that decision. Though there's no interest in it anyway. I don't think the college have any active say in the club bar general governance (though they did have to give the club the go-ahead to start playing non-students back in the early 80s).

Ironically, the advent of the national underage teams probably impacted UCD's budget- the teams don't come cheap and that's more pressure on the senior budget.

Well it impacted on everyone's budget in fairness. But if three extra teams costs, say, E75k, that'd all be from the first-team budget really. But if you have three teams with wages budgets of, say, 400k, 200k and 100k, then introduce three new teams and their first-team budgets reduce to 325k, 125k and 25k. So obviously the drop from 100k to 25k is the most severe, and that's what we're seeing now.

At least the FAI are giving that travel grant of E700 or whatever it is though.